The Logos (As I understand it)

[sayso]

Originally Posted by GateKeeper

Since Jesus had a beginning (Begotten by God), it is not plausible that Jesus made the world Himself, or that He was God on earth. We know that God created all things for himself, so I wish to stay true to this thought, and reason these p***ages out, while staying true to scripture.

GK

Hi Gatekeeper,

Do you believe Jesus is/was a liar?

John 8
56 Your forefather Abraham was extremely happy at the hope and prospect of seeing My day (My incarnation); and he did see it and was delighted.57 Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
58 Jesus replied, I ***ure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.
59 So they took up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus, by mixing with the crowd, concealed Himself and went out of the temple.


Jesus clearly told the Pharisees that He existed before Abraham was born. By saying "I AM" He was saying in effect that He is God because that is what God told Moses to call Him, I AM. The Jews understood and knew what He meant because they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.







John, "the disciple that Jesus loved" said this about Jesus. Did John also lie?



John 1

1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. 2 He was present originally with God.
3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.


And Paul, did he lie too?


Philippians 2

5 Let this same at***ude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]

6 (Paul is speaking of Jesus)Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,


7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and ]rightful dignity], so as to ***ume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.


8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!


And once again Jesus tells John in Revelation chapter 1 who He is.

10 (John)I was in the Spirit [rapt in His power] on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a great voice like the calling of a ]war trumpet,

11 Saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. Write promptly what you see (your vision) in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia--to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.


12 Then I(John) turned to see [whose was] the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,


13 And in the midst of the lampstands [One] like a Son of Man, clothed with a robe which reached to His feet and with a girdle of gold about His breast.

14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, [as white] as snow, and His eyes [flashed] like a flame of fire.



15 His feet glowed like burnished (bright) bronze as it is refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.


16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and from His mouth there came forth a sharp two-edged sword, and His face was like the sun shining in full power at midday.


17 When I(John) saw Him, I fell at His feet as if dead. But He(Jesus) laid His right hand on me and said, Do not be afraid! I am the First and the Last,

18 And the Ever-living One [I am living in the eternity of the eternities]. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore; and I possess the keys of death and Hades (the realm of the dead).


Think Gatekeeper, when did God ever die? Immanuel means "God with us". His name shall be called Immanuel.



God is not a man that He should lie. If you believe that Jesus lied about even one thing, then how could you believe anything else that He said?

[GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by sayso

Hi Gatekeeper,

Do you believe Jesus is/was a liar?

John 8
56 Your forefather Abraham was extremely happy at the hope and prospect of seeing My day (My incarnation); and he did see it and was delighted.57 Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
58 Jesus replied, I ***ure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.
59 So they took up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus, by mixing with the crowd, concealed Himself and went out of the temple.


Jesus clearly told the Pharisees that He existed before Abraham was born. By saying "I AM" He was saying in effect that He is God because that is what God told Moses to call Him, I AM. The Jews understood and knew what He meant because they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.







John, "the disciple that Jesus loved" said this about Jesus. Did John also lie?



John 1

1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. 2 He was present originally with God.
3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.


And Paul, did he lie too?


Philippians 2

5 Let this same at***ude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]

6 (Paul is speaking of Jesus)Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,


7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and ]rightful dignity], so as to ***ume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.


8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!


And once again Jesus tells John in Revelation chapter 1 who He is.

10 (John)I was in the Spirit [rapt in His power] on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a great voice like the calling of a ]war trumpet,

11 Saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. Write promptly what you see (your vision) in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia--to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.


12 Then I(John) turned to see [whose was] the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,


13 And in the midst of the lampstands [One] like a Son of Man, clothed with a robe which reached to His feet and with a girdle of gold about His breast.

14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, [as white] as snow, and His eyes [flashed] like a flame of fire.



15 His feet glowed like burnished (bright) bronze as it is refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.


16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and from His mouth there came forth a sharp two-edged sword, and His face was like the sun shining in full power at midday.


17 When I(John) saw Him, I fell at His feet as if dead. But He(Jesus) laid His right hand on me and said, Do not be afraid! I am the First and the Last,

18 And the Ever-living One [I am living in the eternity of the eternities]. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore; and I possess the keys of death and Hades (the realm of the dead).


Think Gatekeeper, when did God ever die? Immanuel means "God with us". His name shall be called Immanuel.



God is not a man that He should lie. If you believe that Jesus lied about even one thing, then how could you believe anything else that He said?

Did John lie?

1Jn 4:12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1Jn 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
1Jn 4:16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

Scripture CLEARLY tells us that no one has EVER seen God. Jesus was God's Son. This is what He claimed to be, so I'll take Him at His word.

GK

[sayso]

Originally Posted by GateKeeper

Did John lie?

1Jn 4:12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1Jn 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
1Jn 4:16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

Scripture CLEARLY tells us that no one has EVER seen God. Jesus was God's Son. This is what He claimed to be, so I'll take Him at His word.

GK

Sorry friend,

You are grasping at straws. You couldn't dispute one of the scriptures I gave you and so you list a few verses (out of context) which you believe supports your view. John was clearly speaking of and to mortal men which Jesus isn't.


The same John that you quote also wrote this in his Gospel of John concerning the things Jesus said and did.

John 6:45-47

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven."

42 They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?"



43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.



44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.



47" Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.





Those who want eternal life must believe Jesus' message. He told us that He was sent/came down from heaven. He told us that He came from the Father. He told us that He is IN the Father and the Father is IN Him. He never ever suggested that He didn't exist from the beginning of time. He never suggested that He was created by the Father. He said that the ONE Who is from God, has seen the Father.

Colossians 2

6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,


7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gra***ude.


8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,



This last verse means just what it implies. Jesus was/is God living in bodily form. The Father, Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit are all ONE living IN one another.

I have received Christ Jesus the Lord and His Spirit lives in me. But I am not in the Father or in Jesus or in the Holy Spirit because I am a mortal person. Jesus is the ONLY ONE who has ever been IN the Father because He is DEITY.

[GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by sayso

[COLOR=Blue]Sorry friend,

You are grasping at straws. You couldn't dispute one of the scriptures I gave you and so you list a few verses (out of context) which you believe supports your view. John was clearly speaking of and to mortal men which Jesus isn't.

Did you read my posts? Grasping as straws? John tells us that no one has ever seen God. Jesus outright claimed to be the son of God (Which I do believe) and NEVER claimed to be God Himself. I believe the fullness of God dwelt in Him, but that fullness was of God's Spirit, or Word ~ Not the totality of His being. This makes sense being that Jesus was conceived by the Spirit. He grew in the spirit/wisdom, and was "filled" with the truth. (The Spirit is truth 1 John 5) Also, Jesus was not immortal, He died as I recall, but was raised from the grave. He is God's son, and our savior. I don't need to add things in order make Him into God Himself, or to fit a particular theology, or doctrine.

Btw, if you think me here to debate the issue, you are wrong. I simply posted my views so you fine people would know where I stand, and my personal convictions. Your grasping at straws comment leads to believe that you are wanting to argue this matter. I'll give my views, but when argument ensues I will depart from you.

GK

[sayso]

Originally Posted by GateKeeper

Did you read my posts? Grasping as straws? John tells us that no one has ever seen God. Jesus outright claimed to be the son of God (Which I do believe) and NEVER claimed to be God Himself. I believe the fullness of God dwelt in Him, but that fullness was of God's Spirit, or Word ~ Not the totality of His being. This makes sense being that Jesus was conceived by the Spirit. He grew in the spirit/wisdom, and was "filled" with the truth. (The Spirit is truth 1 John 5) Also, Jesus was not immortal, He died as I recall, but was raised from the grave. He is God's son, and our savior. I don't need to add things in order make Him into God Himself, or to fit a particular theology, or doctrine.

Btw, if you think me here to debate the issue, you are wrong. I simply posted my views so you fine people would know where I stand, and my personal convictions. Your grasping at straws comment leads to believe that you are wanting to argue this matter. I'll give my views, but when argument ensues I will depart from you.

GK

Yes I've read that p***age of verses many times. And I explained to you why John wasn't speaking of Jesus when he wrote those verses.

What you believe is up to you. I simply gave another view of the logos, Is Jesus God. My view is that He is and I gave the proof of Jesus Himself saying He is from the Bible to support my view.

You then answered back and said that the Bible "CLEARLY" states that your belief is the correct view. I disagree. So it is ok for you to disagree with others but they can't disagree with you?

[GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by sayso

Yes I've read that p***age of verses many times. And I explained to you why John wasn't speaking of Jesus when he wrote those verses.

What you believe is up to you. I simply gave another view of the logos, Is Jesus God. My view is that He is and I gave the proof of Jesus Himself saying He is from the Bible to support my view.

You then answered back and said that the Bible "CLEARLY" states that your belief is the correct view. I disagree. So it is ok for you to disagree with others but they can't disagree with you?

With all due respect, I said scripture CLEARLY tells us that no one has ever seen God, and that Jesus claimed to be God's son, which is what I myself believe. You believe scripture supports your view, while I believe scripture supports my own. This is an age old debate, and will never be resolved. It is simply pointless to argue the matter, as the debate has no end. Now if you believe one must believe Jesus is G-d to be saved, we have another issue to tackle altogether, lol.

Blessings

GK

[GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by sayso

Hi Gatekeeper,

Do you believe Jesus is/was a liar?

Absolutely not, which is why I take Him for His word. He clearly referred to Himself as God's son, and [that] is who I believe Him to be.

John 8
56 Your forefather Abraham was extremely happy at the hope and prospect of seeing My day (My incarnation); and he did see it and was delighted.57 Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
58 Jesus replied, I ***ure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.
59 So they took up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus, by mixing with the crowd, concealed Himself and went out of the temple.


Jesus clearly told the Pharisees that He existed before Abraham was born. By saying "I AM" He was saying in effect that He is God because that is what God told Moses to call Him, I AM. The Jews understood and knew what He meant because they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.

This scripture is about God promising Abe a seed (Issac) through which an everlasting covenant would be made. A promise of things to come (Jesus Christ). Abe rejoiced at this day for He new G-d was faithful, and that the messiah would come from the promise of this everlasting covenant.

Jesus made no claim of deity, but rather messiah, as in the rest of scripture. He had offended them by suggesting that he was greater than Abraham, and that they were under bondage, and that they did not know God. He implied that they were not the children of Abraham, and that they were not the children of God. Jesus simply called them out as liars.

Were they trying to stone him for blasphemy? Obviously not, for they (Many) already believed on him. But now they were angered and confused by his accusations, and frustrated by his answers. You will undoubtedly claim that Jesus was quoting Exodus 3:14, where the name of God (according to most Bibles) is revealed as "I AM", but the name of God as revealed in Exodus 3:14, is actually "I WILL BE" according to most Hebrew scholars. (EHYEH ASHER EHYEH, EHYEH)

John, "the disciple that Jesus loved" said this about Jesus. Did John also lie?



John 1

1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. 2 He was present originally with God.
3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

Actually John said this about the "Word", and then explained how Jesus was the manifestation of that "Word". You have added to the text....

Philippians 2

5 Let this same at***ude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]

6 (Paul is speaking of Jesus)Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,


7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and ]rightful dignity], so as to ***ume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.


8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!

Jesus possessed the fullness of God, but this doesn't make Him God, but rather a vessel for G-d's "Word".

And once again Jesus tells John in Revelation chapter 1 who He is.

10 (John)I was in the Spirit [rapt in His power] on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a great voice like the calling of a ]war trumpet,

11 Saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. Write promptly what you see (your vision) in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia--to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.


12 Then I(John) turned to see [whose was] the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,


13 And in the midst of the lampstands [One] like a Son of Man, clothed with a robe which reached to His feet and with a girdle of gold about His breast.

14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, [as white] as snow, and His eyes [flashed] like a flame of fire.



15 His feet glowed like burnished (bright) bronze as it is refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.


16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and from His mouth there came forth a sharp two-edged sword, and His face was like the sun shining in full power at midday.


17 When I(John) saw Him, I fell at His feet as if dead. But He(Jesus) laid His right hand on me and said, Do not be afraid! I am the First and the Last,

18 And the Ever-living One [I am living in the eternity of the eternities]. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore; and I possess the keys of death and Hades (the realm of the dead).


Think Gatekeeper, when did God ever die? Immanuel means "God with us". His name shall be called Immanuel.



God is not a man that He should lie. If you believe that Jesus lied about even one thing, then how could you believe anything else that He said?

I understand why you believe what you do, but the reality is that Jesus was who He claimed to be. He claimed to be God's son, and our messiah. Nothing more, and nothing less. He was not God on earth, but He possessed God's Word/Wisdom/Spirit as a part of His being.

Blessings

1Jn 4:12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

GK