Indulgences. Pay pope or baptize LDS?

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by shoedog

The comparison between Catholic and LDS Mormon "indulgences" is one works, gets paid and and trades it, and the other trades his work.

Please explain how you are defining the word: indulgence

You seem to be defining it as simply "doing something to be of service to someone who has died", and if that's all it takes in your perspective, then I hope you'll at least be consistent by using the same standard when you also do something to be of service to someone who has died... that is, if you actually do or would do anything.

Both are trading their time but just "cash" in it at different points in the process. Time has value.

Just clarify at what point you consider ANYONE to be offering an "indulgence" to ANYONE else, whether living or dead ?

You didn't baptize me by proxy did you?

Heh, what good would it do if I did?

So, if 1 in 3, for example, chose not to accept your baptism and "ALL of the credit" for that work goes back to the worker in exaltation... then the more you baptize the more credit you'll have for all the "rejected" work later.

In other words, if you can document 3 people and baptize them you'll end up with 2 credits (minus 1 rejection). If you document 3,000,000 people and baptize them you'll have 2,000,000 credits. So your "credit", your glory in the afterlife is proportional to the amount of baptismal work you do?

I get credit, and I'm going to continue to get credit, for everything I do and have ever done whether or not anyone else ever accepts what I do or have done for them.

In other words, I'm getting credit, and I'm going to continue to get credit, for teaching you the true gospel of Jesus Christ (which you refer to as "Mormonism") whether or not you ever accept what I am teaching you.

Is this why LDS Mormons document people like Hitler, the Jews, Catholics, Baptists, and anyone else they can (Obama's mom) even if they choose to reject LDSism?

I believe we keep records of our own actions and what we have observed simply because we want our actions and our observations to be recorded in Heaven and on this Earth.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by archaeologist

the dead obviously CANNOT SAY 'no, thanks'.

Actually, yes, they can.

Those who are "dead" still live on, as spirits, and they still have the agency God gave them to do anything God will allow them to do.

[Mesenja]

Debating the merits and faults of indulgences has no place here.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Columcille

I would not necessarily subs***ute the word "love gift" for "indulgence" but I would say that the intentions of the people who do gain an indulgence is done out of love. But let's face it, a love offering does not merit salvation; salvation is not something bought, like you can hold up God to some bargaining chip. Salvation is a free gift, from God's Son who paid the price. This is something that the person recieving the gift has to do on his own, it is not something that can be done by proxy. The worth of the indulgence is not salvation, but offsetting the effects of sinfulness through the Church where God is uplifted and exalted. Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins and is distinctive from indulgences.

Would you define an indulgence as doing something for others who have died as long as you make it clear that you believe what you are doing when offering indulgences doesn't help the person you are offering "indulgences" for to attain salvation in any way, then?

In what sense do you believe indulgences "offset the effects of sinfulness" ???

It sounds to me like you're saying the "indulgences" don't help the person I thought the "indulgences" were intended to help, but rather they are intended only to help the leaders of your Church who accept those gifts.

For example, suppose a person named Mark (who is a member of your Church) believes a member of his family (let's call him Didymus) is in Pergatory so Mark then gives a gift to one of the leaders of your church (the Catholic church).

Does the "indulgence" gift Mark gives help Didymus in any tangible way at all, personally, such as by maybe making his stay in Pergatory more pleasant while he is there, or does Mark's gift only help the leaders of the other people who are members of the Catholic church who teach that indulgences only help them, as leaders ?

[archaeologist]

Shoedog is discussing the Catholic doctrine of indulgences on the Mormon Forum. Why doesn't shoedog at least stick to the topic of this forum?

no he wasn't. he was using it as a comparitive only. he was not introducing it as a point of discussion. if a person canno tmake comparisons for clarity sake or to make a point then there is no use having a discussion.

we have already seen that the mormon cult takes its doctriens from ancient cults and heresies so why shouldn't they steal from rcc ideas as well?

[Mesenja]

When he used it as a comparative study then he introduced it as a point of discussion.

Originally Posted by shoedog

shoedog:I watched the good movie Luther last night. He was pained by the Catholic church selling indulgences,that is,you can give money to the church for the benefit of a loved one in purgatory and you would get a certificate saying they would be released from purgatory at least sooner than they otherwise would be if not immediately.

Originally Posted by shoedog

Pay the Catholics pope or [be] baptize[d] by [the] LDS... both groups claim you can choose the free gift of salvation after you're dead,and after you've found out you should have chosen well in this life?

Originally Posted by archaeologist

No he wasn't. He was using it as a comparative only. He was not introducing it as a point of discussion. If a person can not tmake comparisons for clarity sake or to make a point then there is no use having a discussion.

We have already seen that the Mormon cult takes its doctrines from ancient cults and heresies so why shouldn't they steal from RCC ideas as well?

[archaeologist]

nice out of context quotes and very good cut and paste ***

[Mesenja]

Merely dismissing my posts proves nothing and says even less.

Originally Posted by archaeologist

Nice out of context quotes and a very good cut and paste ***.

[archaeologist]

Merely dismissing my posts proves nothing and says even less.

when you give straight andonest answers without changing the questions or cherry picking the parts you will answer then maybe your posts won't be dismissed.

if it wasn't for people's lust for power and control, i would be amazed that the mormons could actually get converts to their cult.

[shoedog]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Please explain how you are defining the word: indulgence

You seem to be defining it as simply "doing something to be of service to someone who has died", and if that's all it takes in your perspective, then I hope you'll at least be consistent by using the same standard when you also do something to be of service to someone who has died... that is, if you actually do or would do anything.


Just clarify at what point you consider ANYONE to be offering an "indulgence" to ANYONE else, whether living or dead ?


Heh, what good would it do if I did?


I get credit, and I'm going to continue to get credit, for everything I do and have ever done whether or not anyone else ever accepts what I do or have done for them.

In other words, I'm getting credit, and I'm going to continue to get credit, for teaching you the true gospel of Jesus Christ (which you refer to as "Mormonism") whether or not you ever accept what I am teaching you.


I believe we keep records of our own actions and what we have observed simply because we want our actions and our observations to be recorded in Heaven and on this Earth.

LDS Mormonism is different than the true gosepl of Jesus and baptizing by proxy for me is meaningless and a waste of time. I reject Mormonism as false teaching and against God's Word.

I'm understanding indulgences as a false teaching leading people to believe they can pay money, do works, etc. for someone who is already dead with the belief it will help them leave a "spirit prison" or purgatory sooner than they would have been able to otherwise. I also reject "spirit prison" for those who die who aren't LDS Mormons and are dependant on a living LDS Mormon to release them from it by proxy baptism.

I have no problem with people honoring a dead person or even compensating victims of dead persons... it's a great thing to do and perhaps GOd would even reqard the living for those behaviors. I believe Jesus's death on the cross is completely sufficeint to accomplish God's will after death and He doesn't need the help of LDS Mormons.

Furthermore, I believe each person is responsible for their own life, beliefs, and actions while they are alive and if you reject the gospel Jesus teaches you will spend an eternity apart from Him, in hell. A living person can't take on the salvation of another simply be ***uming he can and getting baptized in their name. That simply is a lie of Satan. It is what Jesus the Messiah accomplished fo rus on the cross. Baptism is the personal expression of your decision to follow God's true teaching.

Let me ask you, if your faith is in what LDS Moronism teaches, and if you truly are leading people into false teaching, what will your eternity be like?

Thanks, shoe

[shoedog]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Merely dismissing my posts proves nothing and says even less.

You'r eworng. Reread the OP. I saw the movie Luther and noticed the similarity in my opinion of RCC and LDS Mormon of the adoration and abuse of the dead (?) at the expense of the fears and suspers***ions perpetrated by fear mongering leaders of heretical sects.

The abuses in the RCC system are without dispute except by RCC. The abuses in the LDS Mormon religious system ar near legendary by proxy baptizing fo rHitler, and other Nazis, for example, only to revoke those "spirit-led" baptisms at a much later due to public pressure... much like polygamy, racism, womens rights, etc. changed by the LDS Mormon leaders.

The point I would like to make is Satan is using the same tactics in different religious membership groups.

If you disagree, then disagree and post why hopefully substantively and intelligently. If you don't disagree let your silence on the matter speak for you.

Thanks, shoe

Thanks, shoe

[shoedog]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

There is no similarity to Catholic indulgences and our practice for baptism in behalf of the dead. Besides the faulty premise that you started out with I have provided two examples of the errors you made concerning the Catholic practice of indulgences. If you want to be taken more seriously then stop making faulty comparisons.

[/QUOTE]

It is common knowledge the RCC sold indulgences to finance cathedrals and to enrich the Pope. It is the same as the LDS Mormon leaders "selling" the idea you proxy baptise and you are doing good works for which the dead will rise sooner, leave purgatory sooner and the LDS & RCC members will be rewarded for their work. THe only difference I can tell other than terminology is the RCC claim their practice benefits only dead Christians, and LDS proxy baptisms benefits whoever except former LDS Mormons who became apostate... that is, reject the LDS Mormonism.

Neither system seems to acknowledge Christ paid it all.

Thanks, shoe

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by shoedog

LDS Mormonism is different than the true gosepl of Jesus...

No it isn't. Let's see what else you have to say now.

... and baptizing by proxy for me is meaningless and a waste of time.

I reject Mormonism as false teaching and against God's Word.

I know that's the way you feel right now, but who's to say that you'll always feel that way and that you'll always reject "Mormonism" as the restoration of true gospel of Jesus Christ even when your spirit goes to where it will go after you die ???

... and btw, it would be a waste of your time for you to answer that question right now, because my question is NOT about how you feel about "Mormonism" right now, but how you might feel about Mormonism later after you learn more about "Mormonism" when you might discover what Mormonism is REALLY all about.

I'm understanding indulgences as a false teaching leading people to believe they can pay money, do works, etc. for someone who is already dead with the belief it will help them leave a "spirit prison" or purgatory sooner than they would have been able to otherwise.

That's my understanding of Catholic Church teachings about indulgences too, but I know there is truth to the idea that there are things certain people can do to help some other people who have died which can help those people to get out of a "spirit prison" or "purgatory" or "Hell" sooner than they would have been able to get out otherwise.

I simply reject the "false teachings" in all false teachings while knowing there are some true teachings which the false teachings are based upon.

I also reject "spirit prison" for those who die who aren't LDS Mormons and are dependant on a living LDS Mormon to release them from it by proxy baptism.

I know you reject those teachings, shoe, but those teachings are true anyway.

The big question now is:

How long will you continue to reject the truth that you now reject as truth?

I have no problem with people honoring a dead person or even compensating victims of dead persons... it's a great thing to do and perhaps God would even reward the living for those behaviors.

That's good that you have no problem with that, and FYI, God actually does reward all people for all the good things they do.

I believe Jesus's death on the cross is completely sufficeint to accomplish God's will after death and He doesn't need the help of LDS Mormons.

I know you believe that, but Jesus's death on the cross actually didn't fulfill his requirement that all people be baptized to be forgiven for all of their sins.

Furthermore, I believe each person is responsible for their own life, beliefs, and actions while they are alive and if you reject the gospel Jesus teaches you will spend an eternity apart from Him, in hell.

I believe that too, but that only applies to the people who reject the gospel Jesus teaches, and only for as long as they reject that gospel.

As soon as anyone accepts the gospel Jesus teaches while also being baptized according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, those people then either avoid being sent to Hell (or spirit prison) in the first place, or they then get out of Hell (or spirit prison) as soon as they stop rejecting the gospel and start accepting the gospel Jesus teaches along with his commandments.

A living person can't take on the salvation of another simply by ***uming he can and getting baptized in their name. That simply is a lie of Satan.

We (LDS) are not ***uming anything on this issue, shoe.

We're following the program Jesus has outlined in regards to this issue.

All of the people who didn't get baptized according to the teachings of Jesus Christ while they were living their (mortal) lives here on this Earth simply because they never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ including the teaching that they needed to be baptized will still hear the gospel of Jesus Christ SOMEWHERE after their spirits have separated from their (mortal) body, and they will then have the opportunity to accept the gospel Jesus teaches including the teaching that they need to be baptized according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Baptism is the personal expression of your decision to follow God's true teaching.

Right. Exactly.

Now all you need to realize is that God's true teachings includes the teaching that all people who are accountable for their sins MUST be baptized as a personal expression to show they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, otherwise they are not showing they have accepted it.

Let me ask you, if your faith is in what LDS Mormonism teaches, and if you truly are leading people into false teaching, what will your eternity be like?

Like yours if you are leading (or trying to lead) people into false teachings.

... and I know you are.

[Mesenja]

You compared the practice of Roman Catholic indulgences to that of the Latter-day Saints doing proxy baptisms in behalf of the dead. You are just repeating here what I said before. If you are going to make such comparisons then the subject of Roman Catholicism is by default brought up on the Mormon Forum.

Originally Posted by shoedog

You're wrong. Reread the OP. I saw the movie Luther and noticed the similarity in my opinion of RCC and LDS Mormon of the adoration and abuse of the dead (?) at the expense of the fears and supers***ions perpetrated by fear mongering leaders of heretical sects.


The abuses in the RCC system are without dispute except by RCC. The abuses in the LDS Mormon religious system are near legendary by proxy baptizing for Hitler,and other Nazis,for example,only to revoke those "spirit-led" baptisms at a much later due to public pressure...much like polygamy,racism,women's rights,etc. changed by the LDS Mormon leaders.


The point I would like to make is Satan is using the same tactics in different religious membership groups.


If you disagree,then disagree and post why hopefully substantively and intelligently. If you don't disagree let your silence on the matter speak for you.


Thanks, shoedog[/SIZE]

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by shoedog

It is common knowledge the RCC sold indulgences to finance cathedrals and to enrich the Pope. It is the same as the LDS Mormon leaders "selling" the idea you proxy baptise and you are doing good works for which the dead will rise sooner,leave purgatory sooner and the LDS & RCC members will be rewarded for their work. The only difference I can tell other than terminology is the RCC claim their practice benefits only dead Christians,and LDS proxy baptisms benefits whoever except former LDS Mormons who became apostate... that is,reject the LDS Mormonism.

Neither system seems to acknowledge Christ paid it all.

Thanks,shoedog

Read the article en***led Myths about Indulgences for the errors you have made concerning the practice of Catholic indulgences.

As to your accusations against our practice of baptisms for the dead by vicarious proxy you are just as wrong. Let us go over your errors point by point shall we?

1. It is the same as the LDS Mormon leaders "selling" the idea you proxy baptise and you are doing good works for which the dead will rise sooner.

Implicit in this statement is that performing a baptism on behalf of someone else who has died makes that person LDS. According to their own free will and choice they can accept,decline,or ignore this ordinance altogether.


2. The LDS & RCC members will be rewarded for their work.

You are making another groundless accusation that both Latter-day Saints and Roman Catholics teach a works based salvation. If I appear to be presumptuous in speaking for the Catholic posters here I apologize. However in my defense this is such a blatant error that I felt obliged to address it.

You are also getting dangerously close if not already having crossed the line to embrace the heresy called Antinomianism

This particular topic goes beyond the subject matter here to addressed but I would be happy to debate this question with you in a more suitable place. I will only say two comments in regards to the issue of salvation.

One being that the apostle Paul differentiates between works done under the eyes of the Lord's grace [Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.] and those works which are works of debt. [Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace,but of debt.]

My second comment is that "the hope of eternal life"[***us 1:2;***us 3:7] which the apostle Paul said that God promised the saints is not the unconditional,irreversible automatic kind that evangelicals believe in.

May I also suggest that you study carefully the following verses.


Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me,Lord, Lord,shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven,the same is my brother,and sister,and mother.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me,Lord,Lord,and do not the things which I say?

Romans 2:6-10 [God] will render to every man according to his deeds. 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious,and do not obey the truth,but obey unrighteousness,indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish,upon every soul of man that doeth evil,of the Jew first,and also of the Gentile10 But glory,honour,and peace,to every man that worketh good,to the Jew first,and also to the Gentile:For there is no respect of persons

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;and that not of yourselves:it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship,created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying,speak every man truth with his neighbour:for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry and sin not:let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more:but rather let him labour,working with his hands the thing which is good,that he may have to give to him that needeth29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth,but that which is good to the use of edifying,that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness,and wrath,and anger,and clamour,and evil speaking,be put away from you,with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another,tenderhearted,forgiving one another,even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the Lord,unworthily,shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself,and so let him eat of that bread,and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily,eateth and drinketh ****ation to himself,not discerning the Lord’s body.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour,that,whether present or absent,we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ;that every one may receive the things done in his body,according to that he hath done,whether it be good or bad.

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then,as workers together with him,beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves,whether ye be in the faith;prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves,how that Jesus Christ is in you,except ye be reprobates?

Revelation 20:12-13 And I saw the dead,small and great,stand before God;and the books were opened and another book was opened,which is the book of life:and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:and they were judged every man according to their works.

3. Neither system seems to acknowledge Christ paid it all.

In this instance I will refrain from making a comment and leave it to the able hands of the Catholic posters here to correct yet another error made against them.

However I am not under any such obligation as a Latter-day Saint to say that as concerning us you speak words without knowledge.

Wherefore,how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth,that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God,save it be through the merits,and mercy,and grace of the Holy Messiah,who layeth down his life according to the flesh,and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit,that he may bring to p*** the resurrection of the dead,being the first that should rise. (2 Nephi 2:8)

[Mesenja]

Archaeologist what quotes of Shoedog did I take out of context? It should be simple enough for you to answer.

Originally Posted by archaeologist

When you give straight and honest answers without changing the questions or cherry picking the parts you will answer then maybe your posts won't be dismissed.

If it wasn't for people's lust for power and control,I would be amazed that the Mormons could actually get converts to their cult.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by shoedog

shoe: I watched the good movie Luther last night. He was pained by the Catholic church selling indulgences, that is, you can give money to the church for the benefit of a loved one in purgatory and you would get a certificate saying they would be released from purgatory at least sooner than they otherwise would be if not immediately.

Isn't this similar to LDS Mormons teaching that people who die apart from the Mormon church, and their belief system, can be baptized by proxy by an LDS Mormon convinced their cause is just?

Pay the Catholics pope or baptize by LDS... both groups claim you can choose the free gift of salvation after you're dead, and after you've found out you should have chosen well in this life?

Or, why would Jesus have to die at all if one could experiment apart from God in this life only to be given the opportunity to change in the next once you've seen you were wrong?

Thanks, shoe

There is a good connection between the two concepts for 'helping people out' after they died.

I had to study the catholic history of this idea in bible school, and from what i remember it was based (and still is) on the idea taught in a Bible verse that what the church binds on the earth is bound in heaven also.

The catholic idea also stems from the idea that while we do receive 'forgiveness"for our sin while here on the Earth , we yet do not escape some of the results of our past sins.

An example is that you can be forgiven in heaven for the sin of murder, but you still suffer the results here on the earth and are in jail regardless of your being forgiven.
The Catholic idea built on this idea and began to offer a way to also shorten the results of sin that were forgiven yet still would cause suffering .

From this idea the practice grew into the "pay your way out of purgatory" system that was what Luther was very correct in objecting to.

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by shoedog

shoe: I watched the good movie Luther last night. He was pained by the Catholic church selling indulgences, that is, you can give money to the church for the benefit of a loved one in purgatory and you would get a certificate saying they would be released from purgatory at least sooner than they otherwise would be if not immediately.

Isn't this similar to LDS Mormons teaching that people who die apart from the Mormon church, and their belief system, can be baptized by proxy by an LDS Mormon convinced their cause is just?

Pay the Catholics pope or baptize by LDS... both groups claim you can choose the free gift of salvation after you're dead, and after you've found out you should have chosen well in this life?

Or, why would Jesus have to die at all if one could experiment apart from GOd in this life only to be given the opportunity to change in the next once you've seen you were wrong?

Thanks, shoe

No, not similar.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

No, not similar.

The Pheonix, why are you responding to a thread that is five years old. Let Alanmostad pretend to keep this board active by rehashing 4-5 year old posts. It makes him look desperate which is what he has become which is obvious by his Marie Osmond post.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

The Pheonix, why are you responding to a thread that is five years old. Let Alanmostad pretend to keep this board active by rehashing 4-5 year old posts. It makes him look desperate which is what he has become which is obvious by his Marie Osmond post.

I thought about that myself, but hey maybe he just woke up from under a tree or something.

[jdjhere]

THATS a Loooong nap!