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  1. #126
    alanmolstad
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    no verse?
    .........................

  2. #127
    Saxon
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    You show me what you think will help me to see your point of view. The term, "evolution" is diametrically opposed the the term "creation" in the context of the Bible.

  3. #128
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    You show me what you think will help me to see your point of view.


    The term, "evolution" is diametrically opposed the the term "creation" in the context of the Bible.


    I am attempting to show you what the bible actually says compared to what the Young Earther teachers tell us it says.
    I more or less dont try to tell people what the Text 'means", but rather in the beginning I just try to get people to open the Bible up to the story of Genesis and just stick to the text.


    Now when I say, "Genesis does not teach evolution..." lots of people that are against evolution will interrupt me and say, "Hah! you admit it!"

    But the point Im actually making to them is that while evolution is not clearly taught in the Bible, there is enough room within the words that are found in Genesis to allow for Evolution to be very true.

    and....

    and I also point out to people that the teaching of Young Earth Creationism are NOT FOUND in the genesis Text at all !





    As I have already talked about, I attended an 8-week ORIGINS cl*** taught by the leading YEC teacher of our time, a Mr Ken Ham.
    I listen to everything the guy had to say.
    I heard all his teachings.
    I went over all his material.
    I became very up to date as far as what is the argument behind the Young Earth Creationist teachings.

    So in other words.....There is nothing I need yet to see or read or hear that has not already been shown me, taught to me, or spoken to me from the best YEC teacher alive already!
    Lots of people I run into in church or on church forums like this one, that believe in the teachings of the YEC teachers, always have this idea that "Alan needs to read this"...or "Alan you need to look at this website"...or "Alan you need to get right with god"..etc,etc,etc...

    All I can tell you is that I have done my homework...I have put in the time to study this issue, and I have already listened to the same things from far better speakers and teachers...

    I find all the teachings of the YEC to be in error.

    I find even the best Young Earth teachers to be in error.

    and yet......





    and yet i must point out one more thing I have learned over the years on this topic.

    I have learned that every once in a while I run into a guy who at first does disagree with me, but has the ability to see past his gut feelings about what im saying, and is able to open the Bible fresh......fresh and free of all the YEC hype....

    And have a moment of "clarity".....

    They will see things anew.

    They will be able to read the Genesis story with a new and deeper understanding and appreciation of it.
    They soon come to the same conclusion that I have come to...and that is, that there is no anti-evolutionary arguments found in the Genesis account.
    The two works might not say the same things the same way, but they don't actually disagree either.




    If you would like, we can go over the Genesis text, verse by verse, and see how what we are reading does not in and of itself disagree with science and evolution?....

    Or we can talk about a few of the ideas taught in YEC and how they compare to what the Bible says?...

    Or if you have a few verses that you think I need to address?

    Just let me know...
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-09-2015 at 09:35 AM.

  4. #129
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    You show me what you think will help me to see your point of view.


    Ok....

    The first thing we need to deal with is the "light" issue in the genesis text.
    It was over this one issue that I did challenge the teacher Ken Ham on.

    I remember at the time the ORIGINS cl*** he was teaching was dealing with the "light" and the fact that according to Ken Ham, God made a type of light at the start of genesis that had no known source.
    Then later Ken taught that God made the source for light on the 4th day, when the Bible says God made the sun and the moon.


    I had a problem with this whole idea.
    The problem I had is that not one part of Ken's teachings were based on what the Bible was saying that I was reading!

    Ken reads that God did not make a source for the light until day 4, so Ken's answer as to"Where was the light from" was to say that the light from the stars was made before the stars....and that this is also seen in a type of sourceless light talked about in the Book of Revelation.

    However I noticed that the bible actually says something very different than that whole line of BS...


    When I read Genesis I see at Genesis 1:1 that God creates the "Heavens" and while I know there are many meanings to the word "heavens" I do know for a fact that it can be talking about all the stars and our sun, and the moon, etc..

    So when I read the story of genesis I never face the question, "Where is the source for the light?" because I have the source for the light created right at the start of the whole story!


    This saves me from needing to invent a way to have light with no source...
    It saves me from needing to invent reasons...
    It saves me from needing to have a type of light that no one can point to today as being "just like it"

    YEC type of "light" is not found in today's world.
    But the light I read about in Genesis is just the same normal light I see today..I can point to it and say, "There it is still"

  5. #130
    alanmolstad
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    Days.......the next issue we need to address.


    All of Young earth Creationism is all built around the idea that God created the universe in just 6 normal days....each just a normal 24 hours long.

    This is the main argument against an Old Earth, and against Evolution.
    So its the main argument I run into when I tell people that Genesis does not disagree with evolution.

    The person who believes in the YEC teachings has a hard time believing that genesis and evolution agree when Genesis only took 6 days to make man, and evolution clearly needs millions of years to make man.

    So, if Im right about evolution and genesis not disagreeing, how do I answer the challenge put to me about the days issue?

    I do have an answer for the days issue, and My Answer is to go back to the text of the story of Genesis and point out something key.

    Each of the 6 days of Genesis have clear endings.
    You cant miss em.
    The endings jump out at you...they are clearly a big deal to the writer of the Genesis story.
    the wrter of Genesis clearly wants you to understand that the Genesis 6 days are over.

    Except that there are actually 7 days in the Genesis creation week!

    So its a very big deal that the writer makes the endings of the first 6 days so hard to miss, that it demands we understand that its not an accident that the wroter of the Genesis story did not include an ending to the 7th day!!!!!!


    This is not an oversight!

    This means something huge!

    Its also important that at no place in all the rest of the whole Bible is there even a hint given that we are to believe that the 7th day of Genesis has ended yet.

    Not one word in the Bible hints that we should believe the 7th day is over yet.


    So.......why would we dare add an ending when its clearly not included for a reason?

    Why do we need the 7th day of Genesis to have an ending?




    This is why I dont read the story of Genesis and force an ending onto the 7th day.
    I have found that if you just stick to the Text on the "days Issue" that you dont need to force an ending to a day that is still with us.

    Thus the idea that the fact that the Bible has the story of creation written in the form of a normal work-week is not any argument at all against the millions and billions of years it will take evolution to bring life to this world...

  6. #131
    alanmolstad
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    typical....


    I got free time on the weekends to post comments on the forum, and no one posts anything.

    I go back to work on Monday and will only have my silly flip-phone to post with, and there are tons and tons of new posts to read...

    Im guessing everyone else posts on their work computer then?....

  7. #132
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Alan, I don't think that anyone is refuting that on Day 1, three days before the Sun and all stars were made or before the creation of all stars was completed, a temporary light source illuminated the spinning earth and provided day-night cycles. .
    I am refuting it !

    i believe I have proved that the idea that god made light before he made the sun is in error....

  8. #133
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I am refuting it !

    i believe I have proved that the idea that god made light before he made the sun is in error....
    Hi Alan,
    Certainly discussion is good and we all have opinions. My opinion is that the Bible says God made light on day 1 and sun, moon and stars on day 4.
    But I am like ***, perhaps thinking I know more than I really do. Here is what God said to *** Chap 38:19-21;
    “Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
    And darkness, where is its place,
    That you may take it to its territory,
    That you may know the paths to its home?
    Do you know it, because you were born then,
    Or because the number of your days is great?"

  9. #134
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi Alan,
    Certainly discussion is good and we all have opinions. My opinion is that the Bible says God made light on day 1 and sun, moon and stars on day 4.
    The text does NOT say that God made the "sun" or the "moon" on the 4th day!

    Try as I might its so hard to get people to just go back and just read the text to see what it is actually saying!

    Just go back and check it out for yourself.
    The Bible does not say the God made the sun or moon on the 4th day!


    what is the subject of the 4th day?....."the lights"

    Not the sun?.....no!

    Just light?...yes, that is why the Bible does not say that God made the sun on the 4th day, for God had already made the sun and the moon and all the stars on the 1st day!!!!!!!!


    But does not the Text say on the 4th day that God made the stars?....no that was added by editors and its not in any of the oldest copies.


    So The light of the sun is different on the 4th day?......yes, its "greater"

    So the difference on the 4th day is the amount or brightness of the light that has changed?...yes, that is why the Bible tells us about the "Greater light",,the term "Greater" is telling us how much.


    Then why was the amount of light different?....at *** 38 we learn the answer is because of thick clouds that cast the earth in "darkness"...this is the same darkness talked about in the beginning of Genesis.


    So the "darkness" talked about at the start of genesis was only due to thick clouds talked about at *** 38?...yes...and as the clouds thinned out over time the light grew "greater"...that is way on later days we see the light called "Greater"

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The text does NOT say that God made the "sun" or the "moon" on the 4th day!

    Try as I might its so hard to get people to just go back and just read the text to see what it is actually saying!

    Just go back and check it out for yourself.
    The Bible does not say the God made the sun or moon on the 4th day!


    what is the subject of the 4th day?....."the lights"

    Not the sun?.....no!

    Just light?...yes, that is why the Bible does not say that God made the sun on the 4th day, for God had already made the sun and the moon and all the stars on the 1st day!!!!!!!!


    But does not the Text say on the 4th day that God made the stars?....no that was added by editors and its not in any of the oldest copies.


    So The light of the sun is different on the 4th day?......yes, its "greater"

    So the difference on the 4th day is the amount or brightness of the light that has changed?...yes, that is why the Bible tells us about the "Greater light",,the term "Greater" is telling us how much.


    Then why was the amount of light different?....at *** 38 we learn the answer is because of thick clouds that cast the earth in "darkness"...this is the same darkness talked about in the beginning of Genesis.


    So the "darkness" talked about at the start of genesis was only due to thick clouds talked about at *** 38?...yes...and as the clouds thinned out over time the light grew "greater"...that is way on later days we see the light called "Greater"
    Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

    Alan how do you conclude that that two great lights that God made are not the sun and moon?

  11. #136
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

    Alan how do you conclude that that two great lights that God made are not the sun and moon?
    The SOUND of my car is not the same as the car itself right?

    In the same way the LIGHT of the Sun is not the same thing as the Sun itself correct?

    It can be dark outside but that does not mean the

  12. #137
    alanmolstad
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    So it can be dark but the sun is still unchanged in space.

    Also it day out here as I write this but there is no Sun to see due to the clouds.

    This is why the 4th day deals with the amount of LIGHT !!

    So the sun was burning brightly at Dat 1 and 2 and 3 and on day 4...but what changed was the AMOUNT of light that was seen.

  13. #138
    alanmolstad
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    You may ask WHY WAS THE SUN LIGHT NOT SEEN BEFORE? ...The answer is found at ***38

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    So it can be dark but the sun is still unchanged in space.

    Also it day out here as I write this but there is no Sun to see due to the clouds.

    This is why the 4th day deals with the amount of LIGHT !!

    So the sun was burning brightly at Dat 1 and 2 and 3 and on day 4...but what changed was the AMOUNT of light that was seen.
    No, the scripture says, then God made two great lights, not at some former time but then.

    Full Definition of THEN
    1: at that time
    2:
    a : soon after that : next in order of time <walked to the door, then turned>
    b : following next after in order of position, narration, or enumeration : being next in a series <first came the clowns, and then came the elephants>
    c : in addition : besides <then there is the interest to be paid>

  15. #140
    Saxon
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    *** 38 what?? If you have something to say, say it.

  16. #141
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    No, the scripture says, then God made two great lights,
    Yes, that is what Im saying!


    I think the idea you are trapped in is thinking that the "light" always = "the sun"

    Let me phrase it a different way to show you what is being talked about on the 4th day.


    lets say the the word "sun" = my car.

    Lets say that the word "light" = the sound of my car.


    Now lets just think about it a moment.

    Can my car be running and I not hear it?.....yes.


    Its that simple.



    So now lets go back and just think about the "light" of the sun for a moment.
    As I said, today it rained here, we never saw the sun at all.
    But does this mean that the sun was removed from it's position in the heavens?.....NO!


    There are many reasons why you might not see the sun tomorrow, and one of the best reasons is that it may be very cloudy where you live.

    And......as we find out at *** 38 , that is the reason we dont actually see the sun for many of the Genesis days.
    There still is "light" on the earth after a bit....but at first its just enough light to separate the "day from the night"

    Now on a side note:...when at the start of the Genesis story we see the division between "day and night" we can understand that this is the same "day and night" we see today too!

    Nothing has changed!

    What is a "day"?...a day is caused when the position you are at on the earth spins to or away from facing the sun.
    Thats why a thing called "day and night" happen.


    There is no other reason for a thing called "day and night" to happen.

    So right at the start of the Genesis story we have a sun that is burning very brightly in the darkness of space, and we have an earth that spins in it's orbit around that sun....thus giving us the "day and night" talked about on the 1st day!



    Nothing here is tricky to understand.
    The "day" talked about on the first Day of Genesis is the very same type of"day" we enjoy now in the year 2015.
    Nothing has changed!


    This is also why the writer of Genesis was so careful not to write that "God made the sun and moon"
    The writer could NOT say that on the 4th day, for he has already told us that God had created all the stuff in the heavens on the 1st day!


    That is the reason also we are ony dealing now on the 4th day with the change in the "AMOUNT" of light seen on the earth.
    The "AMOUNT" of light has changed compared to the 1st day!


    Thats all the 4th day is talking about.....its so simple....

  17. #142
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    *** 38 what?? If you have something to say, say it.
    If I have said anything that is not in the bible, let me know.

    I listed *** 38 in an effort to get you to go read it to try to prove me wrong.
    What will you find if you go check out that *** 38 listing?....you will find that God is talking to *** about the creation of the Earth!!!!!


    God is talking about how the seas came to be...and God also tells *** why the Bible says the Earth was in "darkness".
    The reason God tells *** that the earth was in the Genesis darkness was due to the thick clouds that he wrapped the world in...



    go check it out...make sure you test everything I say by comparing to the Scriptures.

  18. #143
    alanmolstad
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    38 Then the Lord spoke to *** out of the storm. He said:


    “Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?

    Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.


    “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.

    Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?

    On what were its footings set,
    or who laid its cornerstone—

    while the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?


    “Who shut up the sea behind doors
    when it burst forth from the womb,

    when I made the clouds its garment
    and wrapped it in thick darkness,







    "when I laid the earth’s foundation?"...is talking abut the same moment in earth's history as we read about in Genesis!

    "Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb".....is talking about the Genesis 2 verse were we read about the whole earth being watered from underground.

    "when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness"....is telling us why the Earth was said to be in "darkness" at the Start of the genesis account....that reason is the 'clouds"
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-13-2015 at 04:28 PM.

  19. #144
    alanmolstad
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    So.....Im going to go over the Genesis creation story as it is written to us in the Bible.

    This is not the same story that the Young Earth teachers want us to believe, but as I have said before if at any time you see me say something that you dont think is clearly talked about in the bible, just let me know.

    I would enjoy showing you guys where the following appears in the Holy Text.





    Here we go!


    The Genesis story is told from an earth-bound point of view.
    Many people try to read the story from a NASA spaceman ( as in - "Im up in space looking down at the earth") point of view, but this is wrong. The POV of the writer of the Genesi story is earth bound....

    The point of view to have in your mind as you read the Genesis story is one of a person hovering over the dark sea.





    The first thing God makes is the Sun and the stars and the moon and all the other stuff up there in outer space that we dont even know about yet or have names for,

    So the source for ALL the "light" is created on "Day 1.

    The earth is created as a dead and DRY world.

    Over time the Bible talks about a mist of water vapor coming forth from underground .
    The clouds that form wrap the earth in a thick darkness.
    The rain the forms out of these clouds covered the earth is great seas.
    It is these seas that are "waters"and "the deep" that are listed at the opening of the Genesis story.

    As the clouds that were so thick they wrapped the earth is thick darkness start to thin out, it appears on earth to be just how you would expect it to be, with at first only a notable change between day and night seen....then later asthe clouds thin out more and more, lots of things become more able to be detected, and finally the sign that the thick Genesis clouds are totally cleared away is that even the dim lights of the stars are seen at night.

    The bible does not say that the sun is made on the 4th day, rather what is talked about is the greater amounts of light that is seen as the thick clouds of *** 38 are cleared away .

    and so -
    The Bible does not say that the moon was madeon the 4th day, rather what is talked about is the dimmer light and this is to be expected to be talked about as the moon had already been created on Day 1, but now as the clouds thin away we see more and more things more clearly.

    and also-
    The Bible does not actually say that the stars were made on the 4th day, but this was added by some Bible editors who wanted the bible to agree with YEC.
    What the Bible actually says about the stars on the 4th day is that they and the night are ruled over by the lesser light......(Its that simple, go check it out!)


    The life on the earth is a product of the earth itself, and the earth is the source for all life.
    Humans and animals share this same source , so in a very real way humans are a part of the earth that has come to life.

  20. #145
    alanmolstad
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    So nothing so far as I have listed as talked about in the Bible stands against what we currently teach about in science and evolution.

    There is no contradictions,

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    So.....Im going to go over the Genesis creation story as it is written to us in the Bible.

    This is not the same story that the Young Earth teachers want us to believe, but as I have said before if at any time you see me say something that you dont think is clearly talked about in the bible, just let me know.

    I would enjoy showing you guys where the following appears in the Holy Text.





    Here we go!


    The Genesis story is told from an earth-bound point of view.
    Many people try to read the story from a NASA spaceman ( as in - "Im up in space looking down at the earth") point of view, but this is wrong. The POV of the writer of the Genesi story is earth bound....

    The point of view to have in your mind as you read the Genesis story is one of a person hovering over the dark sea.





    The first thing God makes is the Sun and the stars and the moon and all the other stuff up there in outer space that we dont even know about yet or have names for,

    So the source for ALL the "light" is created on "Day 1.

    The earth is created as a dead and DRY world.

    Over time the Bible talks about a mist of water vapor coming forth from underground .
    The clouds that form wrap the earth in a thick darkness.
    The rain the forms out of these clouds covered the earth is great seas.
    It is these seas that are "waters"and "the deep" that are listed at the opening of the Genesis story.

    As the clouds that were so thick they wrapped the earth is thick darkness start to thin out, it appears on earth to be just how you would expect it to be, with at first only a notable change between day and night seen....then later asthe clouds thin out more and more, lots of things become more able to be detected, and finally the sign that the thick Genesis clouds are totally cleared away is that even the dim lights of the stars are seen at night.

    The bible does not say that the sun is made on the 4th day, rather what is talked about is the greater amounts of light that is seen as the thick clouds of *** 38 are cleared away .

    and so -
    The Bible does not say that the moon was madeon the 4th day, rather what is talked about is the dimmer light and this is to be expected to be talked about as the moon had already been created on Day 1, but now as the clouds thin away we see more and more things more clearly.

    and also-
    The Bible does not actually say that the stars were made on the 4th day, but this was added by some Bible editors who wanted the bible to agree with YEC.
    What the Bible actually says about the stars on the 4th day is that they and the night are ruled over by the lesser light......(Its that simple, go check it out!)


    The life on the earth is a product of the earth itself, and the earth is the source for all life.
    Humans and animals share this same source , so in a very real way humans are a part of the earth that has come to life.
    Hi Alan, I appreciate your zeal for our discussion.
    Here is the text we are discussing taken from 1599 Geneva Bible, I doubt the YEC folks were around in 1599.
    “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven, to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.
    And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
    God then made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made also the stars.
    And God set them in the firmament of the heaven, to shine upon the earth,
    And to rule in the day, and in the night, and to separate the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
    So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.”


    Also I suggest you read the genealogy of Jesus as recorded in Luke 3:23-38. There is no ape between Adam and God. How could anyone suggest that the King of Kings has an ape in His ancestry?

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi Alan, I appreciate your zeal for our discussion.
    Here is the text we are discussing taken from 1599 Geneva Bible, I doubt the YEC folks were around in 1599.


    And when did da Vinci live again?


    http://www.theguardian.com/artanddes...-earth-geology

    While a lot of people in the church try to blame Morris for the rise of what is called today Young Earth Creationism (YEC) the truth is that Morris simply built on the work of many , many other guys before him..

    The deal with Morris is that he became more popular among modern YEC writers as their main source.
    Morris gets quoted a lot in all the YEC books and websites we see on the market today.

    But the roots of YEC go back before Morris.


    In the same way a lot of YEC writers try to blame everything on to Darwin, but the truth is (as we see in the link) that the path of science and understanding was being walked well before Darwin was born.

  23. #148
    alanmolstad
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    However I do want you to understand that i want you to challenge everything I say...

    This is not my first go-around,
    This is not my first rodeo....

    I have had guys pull out all kinds of things before in an effort to show me I'm wrong about this topic, I have had the best preach the YEC teachings to me,(Ken Ham personally!)

    Thus I never take things personal, and Im in this for the hope of showing others what I have learned...and what I have learned is that all of Young Earth Creationism is a lie.



    But lets get back to work here-

    In your post you list a very old Bible, and you seem to be saying that because it shows the words "he made" that to you this might prove that I was wrong about that wording being added?

    The problem you have is that you are just reading a copy of that bible that does not show the added words...
    But there are versions of the Geneva Bible that do show in brackets [] the added words

    The only reason I pointed you to a copy of the King James, is that most of the King James translations I read do have the added words appearing in brackets [] so its easy to spot them.

    However if you want to use your Geneva Bible?, then lets use your Geneva Bible then!.....I got no problem with that.

    Because if Im correct, if the words "he made" are truly added?, then this is not going to be a problem for us to deal with as all we need to do now is find a version of your Geneva Bible that does show the added words in brackets.


    and........


    and guess what?.....turns out that they are not that hard to find on the net!

    http://www.reformedreader.org/gbn/gbngenesis.htm





    Now lets read out of this copy of your Geneva Bible about the events of the 4th day!


    "1:16 And God made two great {n} lights; the greater light to {o} rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. "




    I believe if you check the above quotation of your Geneva Bible, you will see I have correctly copied/pasted it for us to study.
    Now if we remove the footnote listing thingys....we have the following -

    1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.







    Notice something about the words "he made" in the above quotation?
    They are in brackets....and that shows us the words that were added as it does in the King James I used..

    So the two Bibles, both your Geneva Bible and my King James have the same understanding, and both show the Bible student that the words "he made" are simply added to the text and do not appear in the older translations.



    So the fact is, the words "he made" are additions that guys that were pushing the YEC teachings twisted into the text.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-14-2015 at 12:32 PM.

  24. #149
    Saxon
    Guest

    Default

    God is the source of life In Accordance With (IAW) creation. Chance is the source of life IAW evolution. Nothing common about that.

  25. #150
    Saxon
    Guest

    Default

    There is a total contradiction between creation and evolution.

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