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Thread: Picture Proof:Satanic pentagrams on German church

  1. #26
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default I read your post

    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post

    Nah,just Hindu-unless they are Nazi's?


    Hey, I replied to Mesenja's original post but it appears to be too far down for anyone to notice. So this is kniind of a bump.

    Thanks for your replies,

    MacG
    Let me just say that I am as serious about this subject as NRAJeff is.

  2. #27
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default It's called special pleading

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post

    Sorry,Mesenja-dude. The link doesn't work. What the REAL question is:

    1. What were the MOTIVES as to WHY it's on Mormon temples,and the clear Mormon connection to FREEMASONRY?

    2. What were the MOTIVES as to WHY it should be on a Lutheran Church?

    It's EQUIVOCATION regardless which you're about.
    However I am not the one that is guilty of this fallacy. I would think that by now you would see this double standard at work. By the way the link works just fine for me. Here is the URL. There should be no excuses now as to why you can't watch this video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIimYfclxl0

  3. #28
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default Maybe it's special pleading

    Quote Originally Posted by shoedog View Post

    Oh,I don't know. It's at least 450 years older than LDS Momron temples. My guess [is that]Satan saw a good thing and as usual perverted it and LDS Mormons saw the value of it on their temples? Heck,I don't know. Shoedog

    Definition:
    The informal fallacy of special pleading is committed whenever an argument includes some double standard.

  4. #29
    MacG
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Let me just say that I am as serious about this subject as NRAJeff is.
    You read this post ?

    MacG

  5. #30
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default I'm willing to say your right

    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post

    I am willing to say that the inverted pentagram is not satanic given the historic use in Christianity and it's recent use in paganism etc.

    If one were to take away the pentagram off of both that church and a Mormon temple (a "common" denominator as it were),how would symbologists cl***ify each structure based on the remaining symbols?

    From a layman's point of view take away the pentagram from the church and it would be clear to me that Christian people worship there based on the remaining symbols. Take away the pentagram from the Mormon Temple and what remaining symbols would tell me that Christian people worship there?

    Blessings,MacG

    The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it. This entire accusation that the inverted five-pointed stars or pentagrams that decorate some LDS temples are occultic or even Satanic in nature is nonsense. It is a Christian symbol. The Savior called Himself “the bright…morning star” (Revelation 22:16) which is the planet Venus.

    If you plot the exact position of Venus where it first appears shortly before sunrise after a period of invisibility and repeat this process until we have five positions then draw a line from the first point marked to the second point marked,then to the third,and so on the pentagram within a circle will be the design-iconic symbol.

    The five-pointed star would appear either upright or inverted depending on when a person began to observe and plot the positions of Venus. Only the planet Venus can recreate this five-pointed star sign.
    Last edited by Mesenja; 01-05-2010 at 11:36 PM.

  6. #31
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default Yes I did MacG

    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post

    You read this post ?

    MacG

    You can read my reply here:I'm willing to say your right

  7. #32
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default Your using a double standard

    Its called the fallacy of special pleading. The informal fallacy of special pleading is committed whenever an argument includes some double standard.

    Here you are correctly arguing that a symbol can only be defined by the person or group using it but only when it supports your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post

    That isn't what I said.. I said that the meaning of those symbols was twisted by evil to be their symbols.. And as I said to be clear I will use the Cross!.. IHS Jim
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post

    I told you how the Hexagram came into use by Israel. I also explained how the 5 pointed star was a symbol of the wounds of Jesus. How others used it before that to me is not an issue.. IHS Jim
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post

    Yes they didn't want to use it as a symbol of faith so they twist it to their own purposes. IHS Jim
    .
    Here is what you said to Russ. You made the claim that the symbol of the five pointed star does not become satanic unless used in the inverted position. You are guilty of the fallacy of special pleading as your argument includes a double standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post

    Look at it close Russ.. It doesn't become satanic unless used in the inverted position.. Sort of like an upside down cross. This is NOT true on the Salt Lake Temple.. Their satanic symbols are chiseled in stone. IHS Jim
    Last edited by Mesenja; 01-06-2010 at 12:10 AM.

  8. #33
    MacG
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it.
    I agree. Since above you indicated that you are not taking this very seriously and given that you chose to not to actually address the bulk of my question, I would not want to waste your time asking you for the definitions of the remaining symbols (are they not important to you?), could you do me a favor and point me to where it is the TCJCLDS defines these symbols? Otherwise I only have the "anteemormon" sites to glean from and without your help I will continue to be misinformed about the TCJCLDS all the while ***umng that they are right about the remaining symbols.

    Blessings,

    MacG

  9. #34
    James Banta
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Its called the fallacy of special pleading. The informal fallacy of special pleading is committed whenever an argument includes some double standard.

    Here you are correctly arguing that a symbol can only be defined by the person or group using it but only when it supports your argument.


    Here is what you said to Russ. You made the claim that the symbol of the five pointed star does not become satanic unless used in the inverted position. You are guilty of the fallacy of special pleading as your argument includes a double standard.
    If you can show me that this was installed in the building upside down we can discuss their intentions.. But the pictures given here doesn't show the that just the window in display.. IHS jim

  10. #35
    shoedog
    Guest

    Default eloquent, seriously, but times change

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post

    Definition:
    The informal fallacy of special pleading is committed whenever an argument includes some double standard.
    Your logicasal fallacy isn't applied correctly. It would be a double standard if in the same context of time, for example.

    Below is an example how times and meanings change. Same verse:

    Song 5:4 "My beloved extended his hand through the opening,
    And my feelings were aroused for him. NAS (recent)

    Song 5:4 My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him. KJV ((not so recent)

    My point is what meanings were fine and acceptable 400 years ago may mean something different now. What what no special meaning 500 years ago in a German church, upside down pentagram, or even 1500 years ago in the ancient Christian community... may have been become an emblem for satanism and later used by churches honoring him. Why use anything if something with a better meaning is available?

    Look at the history of LDSism. It includes masonic rituals which continue today, moonstones and other occult symvolism such as the upside down pentagram, an idol - different god on top of temples instead of a cross which certainly is a known CHristian symbology, etc.

    Given the heresies and unscriptural teaching one may conclude the upside down pentagram simply acknowledges the spirit behind LDS Mormon teaching.

    Thanks, shoe

  11. #36
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default Symbolism of the SLC Temple

    Temple East Side:Melchizedek Priesthood

    Temple West Side : Aaronic Priesthood.

    Three Towers East:First Presidency

    Three Towers West:Presiding Bishopric

    Twelve Pinnacles East:Quorum of Twelve

    Twelve Pinnacles West:High Council

    Buds and Leaves:Rebirth and Resurrection

    Gold Moroni Statue:Moroni faces East denoting the place of residence for the true and living God of Israel (Hebrew- קדים qadiym east,east wind,east of direction,forward) Moroni returned on September 23,the day of the Jewish Feast known as “the Day of Trumpets” (Leviticus 23:24),with the keys of the Book of Mormon and the everlasting gospel to preach to all that dwell upon the earth (Joel 2:1).

    Alpha and Omega Scrolls East and West Windows & Pillars:They declare the names of God. The Alpha sign is found in the inlaid brick of the pillars of the temple and the Omega sign is found over every window. The scroll is a symbol of the word of God (Ezekiel 3:1-4),declaring that he is the “I Am” (Exodus 3 12-14) and the “Alpha” and “Omega”.

    The Big Dipper (Ursa Major):The seven (perfect) six-sided (fixed position) stars literally (from the alignment on the temple) point to the North Star (Stella Maris),a polar star for determining location. One can gain their bearings through the priesthood and can gain perfection as they observe the constant or polar star who is Jesus Christ.

    Stars:One hundred and eleven stars found on the Temple. Stars have always been a symbol for men. (Revelation 14:4;Isaiah 14:12-14;Genesis 22:17;1 Nephi 1:10-11,etc.)

    Five-pointed Upward Stars:Directly below the east center tower is a row of four upright stars,as well as three stars on each of the other two towers. These stars are not found on the west towers because the Aaronic Priesthood receives its light from the Melchizedek Priesthood. Represents men and women set upright before the Lord from their ‘natural’ state to pursue a righteous path into eternity in the house of the Lord (i.e. Temple).

    Inverted Stars:Represent the planet Venus or the ‘bright and morning star’ (Revelation 22:16). They are made to symbolize God,his relationship to man and his eternal nature.

    Cloud Stones:The cloud is a symbol of ‘the glory of the God’. (D&C 84:5) Israel saw the cloud as both dark and bright (Exodus 40:34-38). They are found atop of the East center tower. The North side cloud represents ‘billowy clouds’ or white and the South side cloud represents ‘storm clouds or black.

    Earth Stones:They are found on all four corners of the Temple and signify mankind and is declared to be ‘the footstool of God’ (D&C 38:17).

    Moon Stones:
    Israel was governed by the moon (Leviticus 23) with its first month being Abib or April (Exodus 12:2). There are fifty moon stones encomp***ing the Temple. They signify that God is one eternal round (D&C 3:2) and vertically in the sun-moon-earth signs are symbolic of Celestial-Terrestial-Telestial Kingdoms.

    Guardians of the Temple:Beside each East side door are the two niches bearing the bronze statues of Joseph and Hyrum Smith signifying that for this dispensation its two original presidents who were martyred for the cause (D&C 135) stand guard over the city of God like the priests did anciently over earthly cities. (2 Chronicles 8:14;Revelation 21:12) It is also symbolic of the guardian angels (1 Kings 6:32, 35) who watch over the Temple and the need for those who wish to enter the presence of the Lord to p*** by the sentinels (D&C 132:18-19).

    Honey Bee or Deseret [Egyptian dsrt ] (Ether 2:3):There are twenty-four bee hives on the Temple. Orson Pratt stated that the honey bee is a type for the eternal nature of God and his plan;swarming out [hive] to fill eternities and procreate in greater number (Journal of Discourses,1:294).

    Golden Flowering Vines:
    The golden hinges of the temple doors are shaped like flowering vines signifying that Christ is ‘the True Vine’ (John 15:1-8),‘the Tree of Life’(1 Nephi 11:4-8),‘the Keeper of the Gate’(2 Nephi 9:41). The entire door has depictions of vines,branches,leaves, fruits,and beehives,which represents the garden of Eden. It is to signify that just as Adam and Eve exited Eden Garden and the Presence of the Lord so one must enter the same way.

    All-Seeing Eyes:They are found on the East and West sides of the Temple or the Front and the Back. The all-seeing eye is an ancient emblem and represents the omniscience of God (Proverbs 15:3) and His ability to discern the good and evil deeds of man. All worthy individuals who worship at the temple are ushered in into the presence of the Lord to be granted greater light and knowledge. The eye is always the right eye being symbol of covenants. What appears at first to be and eyelid is in reality the veil of the temple.

    Capstone:The capstone is the ball on which Moroni stands and is a symbol of completion or perfection.

    Handclasp:The clasping of right hands represent the ‘right hand of fellowship’ (Galatians 2:9),but that within the Temple it is symbolic of receiving a handclasp from the Lord and ‘take hold’ of the Him in His holy house (Isaiah 56:4-7).


    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post

    I agree. Since above you indicated that you are not taking this very seriously and given that you chose to not to actually address the bulk of my question,I would not want to waste your time asking you for the definitions of the remaining symbols (are they not important to you?)

    Could you do me a favor and point me to where it is the TCJCLDS defines these symbols? Otherwise I only have the "a*t*-Mormon" sites to glean from and without your help I will continue to be misinformed about the TCJCLDS all the while ***umng that they are right about the remaining symbols.

    Blessings,

    MacG
    Last edited by Mesenja; 01-08-2010 at 12:19 PM.

  12. #37
    shoedog
    Guest

    Default Boy scouts satanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    Hey, everybody, get yer torches and pitchforks---it's time to tear down the biggest user of Satanic symbols--The Boy Scouts of America!

    http://wikicompany.org/wiki/images/t...Boy_Scouts.jpg[/color]
    shoe: Start 'em young while they're weak.

    http://www.ldsscouting.org/index.shtml

    That figures, "We are committed to providing information and resources that Bishoprics and Young Men leaders may use for running effective Aaronic Priesthood Scouting Programs. We believe that effective Scouting programs can have a tremendous impact on the lives of our young men. We are especially conscious of the need to strengthen the programs for our older young men.


    President Gordon B. Hinckley has stated:
    "I love the Scouting movement. If every boy in America knew and observed the Scout Oath, we would do away with most of the jails and prisons in this country. This program builds boys, builds their futures, leads them on the right path so they can make something of their lives. Every man or woman who helps a boy along the road of life not only does a great thing for him but does a great thing for society as a whole." ..."

  13. #38
    nrajeff
    Guest

    Default

    ...and Shoe is on record as being in the Conspiracy Theory of the Month Club. Every month, you will be sent a new conspiracy theory to examine. If you decide to swallow...er, keep it, you will be billed in many easy payments....

    This month's theory: That the Boy Scouts of America is really an evil, satanic cult that is working against the USA and against Christianity. Newest subscriber: Shoe D. Og.

  14. #39
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default An example of special pleading

    You argue that when used by Christians the pentagram symbolised the five wounds of Jesus. When it is utilized by us on some of our temples it is satanic. You are using a double standard.


    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post

    The pentagram was first used in the Church to bring to mind the five wounds of Jesus. Twisting the meaning of these symbols they have been made to equal evil. IHS Jim

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post

    If you can show me that this was installed in the building upside down we can discuss their intentions. But the pictures given here doesn't show that just the window in display.. IHS Jim


  15. #40
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default Yes it's special pleading

    Come back with a better counter argument Shoe_dog. You can start by trying to understand what the logical fallacy of special pleading is.

    Definition:Special Pleading is a fallacy in which a person applies standards,principles,rules,etc. to others while taking themself (or those they have a special interest in) to be exempt,without providing adequate justification for the exemption.
    You have applied a different standard to the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirch and early Christianity then you did to us.

    "What [had] no special meaning 500 years ago in a German church,upside down pentagram,or even 1500 years ago in the ancient Christian community may have been become an emblem for satanism and later used by churches honoring him.
    Here is an example of special pleading as committed by James Banta. First he argues that when used by Christians the pentagram symbolised the five wounds of Jesus. Then he employs the double standard of saying that when it is utilized by us on some of our temples it is satanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    The pentagram was first used in the Church to bring to mind the five wounds of Jesus. Twisting the meaning of these symbols they have been made to equal evil. IHS Jim
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    If you can show me that this was installed in the building upside down we can discuss their intentions. But the pictures given here doesn't show that just the window in display.. IHS Jim
    Last edited by Mesenja; 01-07-2010 at 06:34 PM.

  16. #41
    nrajeff
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Come back with a better counter argument Shoe_dog. You can start by trying to understand what the logical fallacy of special pleading is.

    You have applied a different standard to the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirch and early Christianity then you did to us.
    Here is an example of special pleading as committed by James Banta. First he argues that when used by Christians the pentagram symbolised the five wounds of Jesus. Then he employs the double standard of saying that when it is utilized by us on some of our temples it is satanic.
    ----Thanks for that well-done, easy to understand primer--with real-life examples--on the logical fallacy called special pleading.

  17. #42
    James Banta
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    You argue that when used by Christians the pentagram symbolised the five wounds of Jesus. When it is utilized by us on some of our temples it is satanic. You are using a double standard.
    I don't think so. I think I have a handle on why you use the stars.. I don't believe mormons use it as a Satanic symbol it represents the telestial kingdom to you.. A Kingdom no where mentioned in the Bible (or anywhere else). A Kingdom invented by Joseph Smith.. While celestial and terrestrial are both spoken of in the Bible telestial is NOT..Even the concept is not in the Bible.. But it is a unique mormon doctrine.. At any rate the five pointed star has more to do with masonry that Christianity.. They have incorporated many symbols in to their rites that have more to do with Satanic practice than they do with truth.. IHS jim

  18. #43
    shoedog
    Guest

    Default lol Jeff, yer doin good son....

    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ...and Shoe is on record as being in the Conspiracy Theory of the Month Club. Every month, you will be sent a new conspiracy theory to examine. If you decide to swallow...er, keep it, you will be billed in many easy payments....

    This month's theory: That the Boy Scouts of America is really an evil, satanic cult that is working against the USA and against Christianity. Newest subscriber: Shoe D. Og.
    Lol. Your arguments can't withstand scrutiny (or light of truth) so you make stuff up? Reread the post I replied to scooter, ok? I'm praying for ya. shoe

  19. #44
    shoedog
    Guest

    Default So pentagrams aren't satanic for some?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Come back with a better counter argument Shoe_dog. You can start by trying to understand what the logical fallacy of special pleading is.



    You have applied a different standard to the Evangelische-Lutheran Pfarramt Marktkirch and early Christianity then you did to us.

    .


    Here is an example of special pleading as committed by James Banta. First he argues that when used by Christians the pentagram symbolised the five wounds of Jesus. Then he employs the double standard of saying that when it is utilized by us on some of our temples it is satanic.
    You're totally oblivious to logic, no? Are you saying the upside down pentagram, a symbol having relatively recently begun being recognized by some as a satanic symbol, can't be considered as the same on a relatively young LDS temple (given their history with the occult) just because the LDS don't want it to be that way?

    You ignored the point meanings of words and symbols change over time. If nothing else, the LDS should remove their questionable symbology (as LDS even suggest) and even their little golden idol that tellingly takes the place of a cross... though don'[t even need a cross. Sheesh, why not get rid of moonstones, etc. ? shoe

  20. #45
    MacG
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Temple East Side:Melchizedek Priesthood

    Temple West Side : Aaronic Priesthood.

    Three Towers East:First Presidency

    Three Towers West:Presiding Bishopric

    Twelve Pinnacles East:Quorum of Twelve

    Twelve Pinnacles West:High Council

    Buds and Leaves:Rebirth and Resurrection

    Gold Moroni Statue:Moroni faces East denoting the place of residence for the true and living God of Israel (Hebrew- קדים qadiym east,east wind,east of direction,forward) Moroni returned on September 23,the day of the Jewish Feast known as “the Day of Trumpets” (Leviticus 23:24),with the keys of the Book of Mormon and the everlasting gospel to preach to all that dwell upon the earth (Joel 2:1).

    Alpha and Omega Scrolls East and West Windows & Pillars:They declare the names of God. The Alpha sign is found in the inlaid brick of the pillars of the temple and the Omega sign is found over every window. The scroll is a symbol of the word of God (Ezekiel 3:1-4),declaring that he is the “I Am” (Exodus 3 12-14) and the “Alpha” and “Omega”.

    The Big Dipper (Ursa Major):The seven (perfect) six-sided (fixed position) stars literally (from the alignment on the temple) point to the North Star (Stella Maris),a polar star for determining location. One can gain their bearings through the priesthood and can gain perfection as they observe the constant or polar star who is Jesus Christ.

    Stars:One hundred and eleven stars found on the Temple. Stars have always been a symbol for men. (Revelation 14:4;Isaiah 14:12-14;Genesis 22:17;1 Nephi 1:10-11,etc.)

    Five-pointed Upward Stars:Directly below the east center tower is a row of four upright stars,as well as three stars on each of the other two towers. These stars are not found on the west towers because the Aaronic Priesthood receives its light from the Melchizedek Priesthood. Represents men and women set upright before the Lord from their ‘natural’ state to pursue a righteous path into eternity in the house of the Lord (i.e. Temple).

    Inverted Stars:Represent the planet Venus or the ‘bright and morning star’ (Revelation 22:16). They are made to symbolize God,his relationship to man and his eternal nature.

    Cloud Stones:The cloud is a symbol of ‘the glory of the God’. (D&C 84:5) Israel saw the cloud as both dark and bright (Exodus 40:34-38). They are found atop of the East center tower. The North side cloud represents ‘billowy clouds’ or white and the South side cloud represents ‘storm clouds or black.

    Earth Stones:They are found on all four corners of the Temple and signify mankind and is declared to be ‘the footstool of God’ (D&C 38:17).

    Moon Stones:
    Israel was governed by the moon (Leviticus 23) with its first month being Abib or April (Exodus 12:2). There are fifty moon stones encomp***ing the Temple. They signify that God is one eternal round (D&C 3:2) and vertically in the sun-moon-earth signs are symbolic of Celestial-Terrestial-Telestial Kingdoms.

    Guardians of the Temple:Beside each East side door are the two niches bearing the bronze statues of Joseph and Hyrum Smith signifying that for this dispensation its two original presidents who were martyred for the cause (D&C 135) stand guard over the city of God like the priests did anciently over earthly cities. (2 Chronicles 8:14;Revelation 21:12) It is also symbolic of the guardian angels (1 Kings 6:32, 35) who watch over the Temple and the need for those who wish to enter the presence of the Lord to p*** by the sentinels (D&C 132:18-19).

    Honey Bee or Deseret [Egyptian dsrt ] (Ether 2:3):There are twenty-four bee hives on the Temple. Orson Pratt stated that the honey bee is a type for the eternal nature of God and his plan;swarming out [hive] to fill eternities and procreate in greater number (Journal of Discourses,1:294).

    Golden Flowering Vines:
    The golden hinges of the temple doors are shaped like flowering vines signifying that Christ is ‘the True Vine’ (John 15:1-8),‘the Tree of Life’(1 Nephi 11:4-8),‘the Keeper of the Gate’(2 Nephi 9:41). The entire door has depictions of vines,branches,leaves, fruits,and beehives,which represents the garden of Eden. It is to signify that just as Adam and Eve exited Eden Garden and the Presence of the Lord so one must enter the same way.

    All-Seeing Eyes:They are found on the East and West sides of the Temple or the Front and the Back. The all-seeing eye is an ancient emblem and represents the omniscience of God (Proverbs 15:3) and His ability to discern the good and evil deeds of man. All worthy individuals who worship at the temple are ushered in into the presence of the Lord to be granted greater light and knowledge. The eye is always the right eye being symbol of covenants. What appears at first to be and eyelid is in reality the veil of the temple.

    Capstone:The capstone is the ball on which Moroni stands and is a symbol of completion or perfection.

    Handclasp:The clasping of right hands represent the ‘right hand of fellowship’ (Galatians 2:9),but that within the Temple it is symbolic of receiving a handclasp from the Lord and ‘take hold’ of the Him in His holy house (Isaiah 56:4-7).

    .
    Thanks for the courtesy of your reply

  21. #46
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default James Banta flip flopping

    Thank you NRA_Jeff for the compliment. However even if they grudgingly come close to admitting guilt they still commit the same fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post


    ----Thanks for that well-done,easy to understand primer--with real-life examples--on the logical fallacy called special pleading.

    I think that you will enjoy this flip flop by James Banta. He does it in the same post none the less. Enjoy!

    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post

    I don't think so. I think I have a handle on why you use the stars. I don't believe Mormons use it as a satanic symbol it represents the telestial kingdom to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post

    At any rate the five pointed star has more to do with Masonry that Christianity. They have incorporated many symbols in to their rites that have more to do with satanic practice than they do with truth. IHS Jim

  22. #47
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default Pentagrams aren't satanic.

    The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it. This entire accusation that the inverted five-pointed stars or pentagrams that decorate some LDS temples are occultic or even Satanic in nature is nonsense. It is a Christian symbol. The Savior called Himself “the bright…morning star (Revelation 22:16)” which is the planet Venus.

    If you plot the exact position of Venus where it first appears shortly before sunrise after a period of invisibility and repeat this process until we have five positions then draw a line from the first point marked to the second point marked,then to the third,and so on the pentagram within a circle will be the design-iconic symbol.

    The five-pointed star would appear either upright or inverted depending on when a person began to observe and plot the positions of Venus. Only the planet Venus can recreate this five-pointed star sign.





    An example of a pentagram or an inverted five pointed star is found on the icon of the Transfiguration by Andrei Rublev (1405),now located in the Moscow Annunciation Cathedral.





    I could go on but by now I think that you get the point. As to your questioning my logic I could do the same for yours. I would also question how much you studied the topic of pentagrams outisde of reading evangelical counter-cult literature.


    Quote Originally Posted by shoedog View Post

    You're totally oblivious to logic,no? Are you saying the upside down pentagram,a symbol having relatively recently begun being recognized by some as a satanic symbol,can't be considered as the same on a relatively young LDS temple (given their history with the occult) just because the LDS don't want it to be that way?

    You ignored the point [that] meanings of words and symbols change over time. If nothing else,the LDS should remove their questionable symbolagy (as LDS even suggest) and even their little golden idol that tellingly takes the place of a cross... though don't even need a cross. Sheesh,why not get rid of moonstones,etc. ? Shoedog
    Last edited by Mesenja; 01-06-2010 at 07:01 PM.

  23. #48
    James Banta
    Guest

    Default

    [Mesenja;45238]Thank you NRA_Jeff for the compliment. However even if they grudgingly come close to admitting guilt they still commit the same fallacy.
    I think that you will enjoy this flip flop by James Banta. He does it in the same post none the less. Enjoy!

    Tell me how saying that Mormons see the stars in different ways then Masons see them is a flip flop? Are you saying that I am wrong and you see them the say way that they do? As a mystic part of their secret ceremony? Many of them have that same design on their aprons.. You seeing a flip flop in my words is a weakness in your mind not in my words.. IHS jim

  24. #49
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default Where on their aprons?

    The use of a pentagram or five-pointed star in some Grand Lodge seals and banners as well as on the collar of office worn by the Masters of lodges and Grand Masters of Grand Lodges is strictly ornamental in nature. As to their aprons they have a picture of a comp*** and a square set at an angle of anywhere between 45° and 80° and, in some older examples,at 90°.






    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post

    Tell me how saying that Mormons see the stars in different ways then Masons see them is a flip flop? Are you saying that I am wrong and you see them the say way that they do as a mystic part of their secret ceremony? Many of them have that same design on their aprons. You seeing a flip flop in my words is a weakness in your mind not in my words. IHS Jim

  25. #50
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    I could go on but by now I think that you get the point.
    I'm not sure I do get your point.

    There is much more to LDSism than you aren't saying - through the symbolism.

    Sure, you give some hints here and there, but you aren't forthcoming regarding what you know.

    "Mormonism creates a situation where potential converts of Mormonism do not have a fair chance to properly ***ess the ultimate teachings of Mormonism before deciding to join the LDS Church." -Hick Preacher

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