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Thread: Picture Proof:Satanic pentagrams on German church

  1. #101
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    Symbolism is important in every society and every religion.

    What's important to Mormons is displayed on its temples.

    The most amazing thing is not what's displayed (although that is amazing in itself), but rather what's MISSING.

    No crosses.

    The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
    The cross is a Roman torture device. And they weren't the first to use it. I think the Egyptians used the cross, as well as other people after the Romans. So, is the cross a Roman symbol of torture and death or a Christian symbol? You decide.

    Marvin

  2. #102
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    Symbolism is important in every society and every religion.

    What's important to Mormons is displayed on its temples.
    ---Good point: The symbols that are displayed symbolize JESUS. You, on the other hand, prefer to make a big deal out of a symbol of what killed Him. Interesting, as Richard would say.

    The most amazing thing is not what's displayed (although that is amazing in itself), but rather what's MISSING.
    ---Well, I'd rather have a cross missing, than have Jesus missing.

    The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
    ---What is foolishness is ascribing supers***ious power to the cross. There is no "power in the cross." The power is in the Person who overcame it.

  3. #103
    Mesenja
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    Default No that isn't the question

    You asked the following question:"Are you good enough...NOW?".

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post

    The perennial question for Mormons is:Are you good enough...NOW? Can't find the German church with pentagrams...Of course,the Mesenja-dude is trying to equivocate from the pentagrams on the LDS temple.
    Russ asked me the very same question and I will give you the very same answer I gave Russ who is now on my permanent ignore list.


    Originally Posted by Russ:The Book of Mormon informs us that "enduring to the end" means to "deny yourself all ungodliness." What is all ungodliness? Everything that isn't God. Have you endured to the end? Are you good enough? Yet?

    Yea,come unto Christ,and be perfected in him,and deny yourselves of all ungodliness;and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness,and love God with all your might,mind and strength,then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ,ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Do you actually think that those who did not endure to the end will be saved?

    Matthew 10:22

    22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
    You asked the question:"Are you good enough? Yet?" And my answer to this question is very simple. No. I can never do enough works to ever be called a profitable servant by the Lord. I also can never display a sufficient quality of faith that would be acceptable to God if judged strictly by the standards of divine law. Who can repay God? In this mortal probation all that is asked of me is that I always be a good and faithful servant who has proven ever faithful with a few things;and will one day be put in charge of many things. He has already shown us the way,provided the means necessary and paid the full price. What little he requires of us is not to make up for what he has not done in regards to our salvation. It is asked of us so that we may learn through our own experience how to act like he acts,love how he loves,think like he thinks,in order to be able to share in the Master's happiness.
    No the perennial and penetrating question is the one posed by President Thomas S. Monson.

    "Thousands of honest,searching souls continue to be confronted by that penetrating question which coursed through the mind of Joseph Smith as he surveyed the declarations made by the churches of his community concerning who is right and who is wrong. Joseph said:"'In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions,I often said to myself:What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right;or,are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right,which is it,and how shall I know it? . . ." 'At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion,or else I must do as James directs,that is,ask of God' (Joseph Smith—History 1:10,13)." He prayed. The results of that prayer are best described in Joseph's own words. You know them:"'I saw two Personages,whose brightness and glory defy all description,standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me,calling me by name and said,pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!' (Joseph Smith—History 1:17)." Joseph listened;Joseph learned. His question had been answered." [Thomas S. Monson,"Great Expectations" address given at Brigham Young University,Jan. 11,2009]
    In your question there is the implication that I do not have any ***urance of my salvation. First let me say that I have salvation.

    Good Christian people sometimes attach different meanings to some key gospel terms like saved or salvation. If we answer according to what our questioner probably means in asking if we have been “saved,” our answer must be “yes.” If we answer according to the various meanings we attach to the terms saved or salvation,our answer will be either “yes” or “yes, but with conditions.” [Dallin H. Oaks,“Have You Been Saved?,” Ensign,May 1998,55]
    Before continuing it is necessary that the gospel of Jesus Christ be explained as salvation comes by having obeyed the gospel as "faith cometh by hearing,and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:13-17)

    "The gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan of salvation. It embraces all of the laws,principles, doctrines, rites,ordinances, acts,powers,authorities,and keys necessary to save and exalt men in the highest heaven hereafter. It is the covenant of salvation which the Lord makes with men on earth." [Elder Bruce R. McConkie,Mormon Doctrine]
    As Latter-day Saints when we use the words saved and salvation,there are at least seven different meanings.

    1. For Latter-day Saints we are saved when we are cleansed from sin through Christ’s Atonement.

    2. For Latter-day Saints we are saved from being i*g*n*o*r*a*n*t* of the of the saving truths of the gospel.

    3. For Latter-day Saints we are saved by being born again when we enter into a covenant relationship with our Savior through baptism and take upon us the name of Jesus Christ. We can renew that rebirth each Sabbath when we partake of the sacrament.

    4. For Latter-day Saints we are saved only if we are obedient to the present covenant relationship we have with Jesus Christ.

    5. For Latter-day Saints we are saved conditionally according to the individual sinner’s faith,which must be manifested by obedience to the Lord’s command to repent,be baptized,and receive the Holy Ghost.

    6. For Latter-day Saints we are saved from death through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.


    7. For Latter-day Saints we are saved from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by ***urance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come. Specifically it means exaltation or eternal life (see Abraham 2:11) which is sometimes referred to as the “fulness of salvation”
    Last edited by Mesenja; 01-11-2010 at 05:12 PM.

  4. #104
    Father_JD
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    You asked the question:"Are you good enough? Yet?" And my answer to this question is very simple. No. I can never do enough works to ever be called a profitable servant by the Lord. I also can never display a sufficient quality of faith that would be acceptable to God if judged strictly by the standards of divine law. Who can repay God?

    Sounds both "Biblical and Christian", Mdude. However it's mere lip-service and I'll show you WHY:



    In this mortal probation all that is asked of me is that I always be a good and faithful servant who has proven ever faithful with a few things;and will one day be put in charge of many things. He has already shown us the way,provided the means necessary and paid the full price. What little he requires of us is not to make up for what he has not done in regards to our salvation. It is asked of us so that we may learn through our own experience how to act like he acts,love how he loves,think like he thinks,in order to be able to share in the Master's happiness.

    And where I've emboldened the text is WHERE you show your true colors, M. Have you ALWAYS been a "good and fiathful servant"?? In other words, ARE YOU GOOD ENOUGH...NOW? And then also, "what he REQUIRES OF US". Have you done EVERYTHING he "requires" of you? In other words, ARE YOU GOOD ENOUGH...NOW?

    I'm always amazed how LDS can affirm one thing, and literally contradict themselves once they begin to EXPLAIN their position. Sorry, M., but Russ is right: Are you good enough?


    No the perennial and penetrating question is the one posed by President Thomas S. Monson.


    Quote:
    "Thousands of honest,searching souls continue to be confronted by that penetrating question which coursed through the mind of Joseph Smith as he surveyed the declarations made by the churches of his community concerning who is right and who is wrong. Joseph said:"'In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions,I often said to myself:What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right;or,are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right,which is it,and how shall I know it? . . ." 'At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion,or else I must do as James directs,that is,ask of God' (Joseph Smith—History 1:10,13)." He prayed.

    Just so you know, JS AND TM have MISAPPLIED and MISUSED the verse from James. NO WHERE in scripture is one commended to PRAY to know the validity of TRUTH PROPOSITIONS. Hence, any "result" can NOT be trusted via this very fractured epistome. Got it??



    ...The results of that prayer are best described in Joseph's own words. You know them:"'I saw two Personages,whose brightness and glory defy all description,standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me,calling me by name and said,pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!' (Joseph Smith—History 1:17)." Joseph listened;Joseph learned. His question had been answered." [Thomas S. Monson,"Great Expectations" address given at Brigham Young University,Jan. 11,2009]

    Yadda. The last of 9 VERSIONS. Yawn.

    I
    n your question there is the implication that I do not have any ***urance of my salvation. First let me say that I have salvation.
    And now we'll witness just HOW you EQUIVOCATE the BIBLICAL MEANING OF THE TERM TO MAKE IT MEAN SOMETHING "ELSE":


    Quote:
    Good Christian people sometimes attach different meanings to some key gospel terms like saved or salvation. If we answer according to what our questioner probably means in asking if we have been “saved,” our answer must be “yes.” If we answer according to the various meanings we attach to the terms saved or salvation,our answer will be either “yes” or “yes, but with conditions.” [Dallin H. Oaks,“Have You Been Saved?,” Ensign,May 1998,55]

    And since there are "conditions", ultimately the Mormon can NOT know he possesses salvation in the BIBLICAL sense.


    Before continuing it is necessary that the gospel of Jesus Christ be explained as salvation comes by having obeyed the gospel as "faith cometh by hearing,and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:13-17)
    Hense, the Mormon can NEVER KNOW whether he has "salvation" because he must always be mindful that it "comes by having obeyed" the tenets of Mormonism.


    Quote:
    "The gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan of salvation. It embraces all of the laws,principles, doctrines, rites,ordinances, acts,powers,authorities,and keys necessary to save and exalt men in the highest heaven hereafter. It is the covenant of salvation which the Lord makes with men on earth." [Elder Bruce R. McConkie,Mormon Doctrine]

    As Latter-day Saints when we use the words saved and salvation,there are at least seven different meanings.

    Ah...finally, we'll see the EQUIVOCATION from the TWO Biblical meanings of the term.


    1. For Latter-day Saints we are saved when we are cleansed from sin through Christ’s Atonement.

    Saved HOW? Uh, methinks PHYSICAL RESURRECTION is intended here, no?


    2. For Latter-day Saints we are saved from being i*g*n*o*r*a*n*t* of the of the saving truths of the gospel.

    You made this one up.


    3. For Latter-day Saints we are saved by being born again when we enter into a covenant relationship with our Savior through baptism and take upon us the name of Jesus Christ. We can renew that rebirth each Sabbath when we partake of the sacrament.

    Ultimate "salvation"?? Obviously not.


    4. For Latter-day Saints we are saved only if we are obedient to the present covenant relationship we have with Jesus Christ.

    Hence, NO Mormon can have "***urance" that he possesses salvation because the Mormon "salvation" is CONDITIONED UPON OBEDIENCE.


    5. For Latter-day Saints we are saved conditionally according to the individual sinner’s faith,which must be manifested by obedience to the Lord’s command to repent,be baptized,and receive the Holy Ghost.

    Therefore, the Mormon can NOT HAVE ***URANCE of salvation because it is CONDITIONAL.


    6. For Latter-day Saints we are saved from death through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Possibly the ONLY ***urance the Mormon can have: PHYSICAL RESURRECTION, but then again, EVERYONE, Mormon or not's gonna be "resurrected", no??


    7. For Latter-day Saints we are saved from the second death (meaning the final spiritual death) by ***urance of a kingdom of glory in the world to come. Specifically it means exaltation or eternal life (see Abraham 2:11) which is sometimes referred to as the “fulness of salvation”

    Uh-huh. "Salvation" BY EXALTATION, and yet NO Mormon can affirm he WILL be "exalted", seeing it's ALL conditional upon the individual Mo's OBEDIENCE, etc.


    Do you see how you UNDERMINE your position, making it merely LIP-SERVICE, M-dude??

  5. #105
    Father_JD
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    Again the question remains:

    WHY is the pentegram added to by OTHER OCCULTIC SYMBOLS.

    Just answer that one, 'k?

  6. #106
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default The song remains the same

    In the mid 19th century when a French magician Eliphas Levi mistakenly claimed that the inverted pentagram was a symbol for the goat god Baphomet. It was only in the late 20th century that the Church of Satan decided to use it for themselves.

    During the lifetime of Joseph Smith the inverted five-pointed star had absolutely no ***ociation with the occult or with Satan. Along with the other symbols on the Salt Lake City Temple it was not an occultic or even a satanic symbol.

    You need to stay after cl*** with Shoe_dog and write out on the blackboard a 100 times the sentence "The meaning of symbols can only be defined by the person or group using it."
    __________________

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post

    Again the question remains:WHY is the pentegram added to by OTHER OCCULTIC SYMBOLS.

    Just answer that one, 'k?
    Last edited by Mesenja; 01-12-2010 at 08:14 AM.

  7. #107
    nrajeff
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    From what I have read, Eliphas Levi just made up that stuff about the meanings of the star shape, including the idea that it's called the "Goat head of Mendes" or something like that. I dunno about you, but if it's ***ociated with Eva Mendes, can it be all bad?

  8. #108
    Compinche
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    From what I have read, Eliphas Levi just made up that stuff about the meanings of the star shape, including the idea that it's called the "Goat head of Mendes" or something like that. I dunno about you, but if it's ***ociated with Eva Mendes, can it be all bad?
    Ahahahaha!!!........Eva Mendes. Mmmmm, the devil in disguise, maybe?

  9. #109
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default No explain it to me again



    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Sounds both "Biblical and Christian",Mesenja_dude. However it's mere lip-service and I'll show you WHY:
    It sounds like you are espousing the Antinomian heresy that Christians are freed from the moral law by virtue of grace as set forth in the gospel. I've also read your post and you have not shown me why my answer to your question has only been giving "mere lip-service".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    In this mortal probation all that is asked of me is that I always be a good and faithful servant who has proven ever faithful with a few things;and will one day be put in charge of many things. He has already shown us the way,provided the means necessary and paid the full price. What little he requires of us is not to make up for what he has not done in regards to our salvation. It is asked of us so that we may learn through our own experience how to act like he acts,love how he loves,think like he thinks,in order to be able to share in the Master's happiness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    And where I've emboldened the text is WHERE you show your true colors,Mesenja. Have you ALWAYS been a "good and faithful servant"? In other words,ARE YOU GOOD ENOUGH...NOW ? And then also,"what he REQUIRES OF US" . Have you done EVERYTHING he "requires" of you ? In other words,ARE YOU GOOD ENOUGH...NOW ?
    My answer to this question is very simple. No. God does not require of me faultless obedience for salvation. Zachariah and Elizabeth "were righteous in the sight of God,observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly." (Luke 1:6) They obeyed God suffiently to be found blameless and considered righteous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    I'm always amazed how LDS can affirm one thing, and literally contradict themselves once they begin to EXPLAIN their position. Sorry,Mesenja, but Russ is right:Are you good enough?
    I have along with everyone else "sinned,and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) All those as Paul said all those who "have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Romans 2:12) However I am "not under the law,but under grace" (Romans 6:14) If I am judged according to that "grace in the eyes of the Lord" (Genesis 6:8) by which the patriarch Noah was judged then my efforts while not measuring up to His divine standards will none the less be acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    No the perennial and penetrating question is the one posed by President Thomas S. Monson.
    "Thousands of honest,searching souls continue to be confronted by that penetrating question which coursed through the mind of Joseph Smith as he surveyed the declarations made by the churches of his community concerning who is right and who is wrong. Joseph said:"'In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions,I often said to myself:What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right;or,are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right,which is it,and how shall I know it? . . ." 'At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion,or else I must do as James directs,that is,ask of God' (Joseph Smith—History 1:10,13)." He prayed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Just so you know, Joseph Smith AND Thomas Monson have MISAPPLIED and MISUSED the verse from James. NO WHERE in scripture is one commended to PRAY to know the validity of TRUTH PROPOSITIONS. Hence,any "result" can NOT be trusted via this very fractured epistome. Got it??
    Jesus taught something completely different from what you are proposing.

    John 16:3 Howbeit when he,the Spirit of truth, is come,he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself;but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    Luke 11:9 And I say unto you,Ask, and it shall be given you;seek, and ye shall find;knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

    ...The results of that prayer are best described in Joseph's own words. You know them:"'I saw two Personages,whose brightness and glory defy all description,standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me,calling me by name and said,pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!' (Joseph Smith—History 1:17)." Joseph listened;Joseph learned. His question had been answered." [Thomas S. Monson,"Great Expectations" address given at Brigham Young University,Jan. 11,2009]
    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Yadda. The last of 9 VERSIONS. Yawn.
    Joseph Smith gave several accounts of the First Vision. If this is supposed to prove that he had no such vision you are mistaken.

    The fact that he gave different accounts of the First Vision is no more probematic then there are four different writers of the gospels in the New Testament,each giving varying accounts of the life and mission of Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    And now we'll witness just HOW you EQUIVOCATE the BIBLICAL MEANING OF THE TERM TO MAKE IT MEAN SOMETHING "ELSE":
    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    In your question there is the implication that I do not have any ***urance of my salvation. First let me say that I have salvation.
    The scriptures teach something completely different from what you have proposed.

    Matthew !9:16 ¶ And,behold,one came and said unto him,Good Master, what good thing shall I do,that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him,Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one,that is,God: but if thou wilt enter into life,keep the commandments.

    John 14:15 ¶ If ye love me,keep my commandments.

    1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy,and understand all mysteries,and all knowledge;and though I have all faith,so that I could remove mountains,and have not charity,I am nothing.

    Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing,nor uncircumcision;but faith which worketh by love.

    James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,and not by faith only.

    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Before continuing it is necessary that the gospel of Jesus Christ be explained as salvation comes by having obeyed the gospel as "faith cometh by hearing,and hearing by the word of God. " (Romans 10:13-17)"
    The gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan of salvation. It embraces all of the laws,principles, doctrines, rites,ordinances, acts,powers,authorities,and keys necessary to save and exalt men in the highest heaven hereafter. It is the covenant of salvation which the Lord makes with men on earth." [Elder Bruce R. McConkie,Mormon Doctrine]
    Good Christian people sometimes attach different meanings to some key gospel terms like saved or salvation. If we answer according to what our questioner probably means in asking if we have been “saved,” our answer must be “yes.” If we answer according to the various meanings we attach to the terms saved or salvation,our answer will be either “yes” or “yes,but with conditions.” [Dallin H. Oaks,“Have You Been Saved?,”Ensign,May 1998,55]
    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    And since there are "conditions",ultimately the Mormon can NOT know he possesses salvation in the BIBLICAL sense.
    There is no such thing as having an absolute ***urance of salvation. One can only be confident of one’s present salvation.

    Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all,because I have you in my heart;inasmuch as both in my bonds,and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel,ye all are partakers of my grace.

    2 Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

    1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body,and bring it into subjection:lest that by any means,when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    We also must abide by the condition of enduring to the end if we are to receive salvation.

    Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end,the same shall be saved.

    2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
    Last edited by Mesenja; 01-12-2010 at 05:44 PM.

  10. #110
    Father_JD
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    Default Part I

    It sounds like you are espousing the Antinomian heresy that Christians are freed from the moral law by virtue of grace as set forth in the gospel. I've also read your post and you have not shown me why my answer to your question has only been giving "mere lip-service".

    No, sounds like you're espousing salvation BY WORKS, not understanding that works, or the deeds of the law do NOT justify one in God's sight. You can NOT have ***urance (other than meaning resurrection by the Mormon re-definition of "salvation") of salvation because it IS CONDITIONAL BY YOUR OWN ADMITANCE.



    My answer to this question is very simple. No. God does not require of me faultless obedience for salvation. Zachariah and Elizabeth "were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly." They obeyed God suffiently to be found blameless and considered righteous.

    And HOW do you KNOW if you've "obeyed God SUFFICIENTLY", mdude? Clearly, you espouse salvation by works, with a little "faith" thrown in. You do NOT understand the meaning of GRACE, m.



    I have along with everyone else "sinned,and come short of the glory of God" All those as Paul said all those who "have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." However I am "not under the law,but under grace" If I am judged according to that "grace in the eyes of the Lord" by which the patriarch Noah was judged by then my efforts while not measuring up to His divine standards will none the less be acceptable.

    Mere lip-service to "under grace", m. You're very much UNDER THE LAW, i.e. MORMON LAW. You don't underwstand that one is NOT SAVED BY ONE'S OWN EFFORTS, but BY GRACE. Therefore, you can NOT have ***urance of salvation, BECAUSE you don't know whether you'l eventually "measure up" to some imaginary standard.



    Jesus taught something completely different from what you are proposing.

    John 16:3 Howbeit when he,the Spirit of truth, is come,he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself;but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    Luke 11:9 And I say unto you,Ask, and it shall be given you;seek, and ye shall find;knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

    LOL. Try reading John 16 IN CONTEXT, M. It's NOT a proof-text for praying for doctrinal truth. To WHOM is this addressed? To the disciples. This is a promise that the Spirit would be with the disciples in showing them "things to come" and the truthfulness of these things. It's NOT a carte blanche prescription for "prayer for theological truth".

    And look again at your OUT OF CONTEXT citation from Luke:

    Luk 11:5 ¶ And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;


    Luk 11:6 For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?


    Luk 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.


    Luk 11:8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.


    Luk 11:9 ¶ And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.


    Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


    Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?


    Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?


    Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?



    The greater context has to do with "asking and receiving" tangible things, but then Jesus adds a spiritual dimension to it about ASKING FOR THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. It's the SPIRIT HIMSELF whom is to be given...NOT some warm-fuzzy feeling affirming some truth proposition that Mormonism might be true.

    I can ALWAYS count on Mormons NOT TO READ IN CONTEXT but to superimpose alien, Mormon meaning onto the Biblical text!!!




    Joseph Smith gave several accounts of the First Vision. If this is supposed to prove that he had no such vision you are mistaken.

    The fact that he gave different accounts of the First Vision is no more probematic then there are four different writers of the gospels in the New Testament,each giving varying accounts of the life and mission of Jesus.

    Sure it's PROBLEMATIC, m. Why? Because ALL versions come from one man, Joseph Smith as opposed to four complementary accounts from FOUR SEPARATE WITNESSES.

    Is it possible that you might discern the difference? At least one time?



    The scriptures teach something completely different from what you have proposed.

    Matthew !9:16 ¶ And,behold,one came and said unto him,Good Master, what good thing shall I do,that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him,Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one,that is,God: but if thou wilt enter into life,keep the commandments.

    Why stop there, M? Oh, I forgot. The context DESTROYS your argument of salvation by works doesn't it??

    Mat 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?


    Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


    Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,


    Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


    Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?


    Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.


    Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.


    Mat 19:23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.


    Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


    Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?


    Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


    Jesus used the rich young man as an object lesson. He thought he could EARN eternal life by "keeping the commandments" and Jesus demonstrates that he couldn't even keep the numero uno commandment: To worship God and NO OTHER while the young man's riches were his god. Verses 25 and 26 clearly demonstrate that one can NOT save himself via works, etc. WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE.

    But that doesn't stop you from wresting the scriptures to your own destruction does it??

  11. #111
    Father_JD
    Guest

    Default Part II

    John 14:15 ¶ If ye love me,keep my commandments.

    Yes, when one truly loves Jesus, that one WILL keep His commandments, but this isn't a text for "salvation by works", mdude.


    1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy,and understand all mysteries,and all knowledge;and though I have all faith,so that I could remove mountains,and have not charity,I am nothing.

    Your point?

    Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing,nor uncircumcision;but faith which worketh by love.

    A great verse which destroys Mormon contentions of being saved by "baptism" or any other kind of work or commandment! Thanks.


    James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,and not by faith only.

    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

    Would you pit James against Paul, mdude? That IS your intention, ya know. James is speaking of the KIND of FAITH one has. A justifying faith is known by its FRUIT, i.e. RESULTING IN GOOD WORKS. It's NOT a proof-text for "salvation by works", m. Ya better learn how to READ the Bible in context instead of knee-****ing to p***ages the Mormon Church tells you what they mean.



    [QUOTE]There is no such thing as having an absolute ***urance of salvation. One can only be confident of one’s present salvation.

    Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ


    Paul is certain that God who began "a good work" in the individual believers hear WILL PERFORM IT until Jesus returns. A great verse for "Preservation of the Saints". Thanks once again for citing a p***age which actually CONTRADICTS your position.



    7 [/B] Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all,because I have you in my heart;inasmuch as both in my bonds,and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel,ye all are partakers of my grace.

    Your point?


    2 Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
    Care to give a correct reference so I can destroy your ***ertion?



    1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body,and bring it into subjection:lest that by any means,when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    Once again, I leave the context to destroy your out-of-context wrongful conclusion:

    1Cr 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!


    1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me.


    1Cr 9:18 What is my reward then? [Verily] that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.


    1Cr 9:19 ¶ For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.


    1Cr 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;


    1Cr 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.


    1Cr 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.


    1Cr 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with [you].


    1Cr 9:24 ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.


    1Cr 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.


    1Cr 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:


    1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


    Lest by any means, Paul becomes a "castaway" REGARDING HIS MINISTRY IN PREACHING THE GOSPEL.

    Geeze. I wish you guys would learn how to read!!


    [2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Your point? It doesn't teach one can lose his salvation, dude.


    We also must abide by the condition of enduring to the end if we are to receive salvation.

    Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end,the same shall be saved.

    2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    And just WHO "endures to the end", dude? Those who are regenerate believers in the Biblical Christ. The p***age is DESCRIPTIVE NOT PRESCRIPTIVE.

    But you must always wrest scripture in order to make it conform to Mormonism, huh?

  12. #112
    nrajeff
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Yes, when one truly loves Jesus, that one WILL keep His commandments,
    ---Then tell me how many people currently living truly love Jesus, FJD.
    a) Lots and lots
    b) none
    c) other answer that you will explain



    BTW, I though this was the thread on whether the presence of stars on a church building prove that the church in question is satanic. Are we still on-topic?

  13. #113
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default Eight Questions

    1. The symbol of the Trinity Triangle is it Voodoo?

    2. The symbol of Hand Grips in Christ’s resurrection is it Masonic?

    3.The Medical Symbol of the snake coiled around a winged staff is it Skull & Bones?

    4. The symbol of the Horn Hand is Christ a heavy metal rocker?

    5. The symbol of the Eye in Triangle are Christians Illuminati?

    6. The symbol of the Jesus Fish is it pagan?

    7. The symbol of the Inverted Cross is the apostle Peter a satanist?

    8.The symbol of the Pentagram are Boy Scouts satanists?
    Last edited by Mesenja; 01-13-2010 at 04:19 PM.

  14. #114
    nrajeff
    Guest

    Default Come on, Brother Bales, teach us

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    1. The symbol of the Trinity Triangle: is it Voodoo?

    2. The symbol of Hand Grips in Christ’s resurrection: is it Masonic?

    3.The Medical Symbol of the snake coiled around a winged staff: is it Skull & Bones?

    4. The symbol of the Horn Hand: is Christ a heavy metal rocker?

    5. The symbol of the Eye in Triangle: are Christians Illuminati?

    6. The symbol of the Jesus Fish: is it pagan?

    7. The symbol of the Inverted Cross: is the apostle Peter a satanist?

    8.The symbol of the Pentagram: are Boy Scouts satanists?
    ----Shoe Dog said the answer to number 8 is "yes," but I haven't seen Teacher Russ give any answers. Is it possible that he doesn't know much about historical Christianity, even though he claims to be part of it? Maybe ATTENDING some cl***es, to learn about his own religion, should be a higher priority than TEACHING cl***es attacking other people's beliefs. After all, eternal life is knowing God and the Son whom He sent---not knowing how to type talking points that ridicule other people's beliefs.

    Scene on Judgment Day

    God: Russ, it's time to decide whether I should give you eternal life. What did you do during your time on Planet Earth?
    Russ: Well, I mocked lots of LDS people and their leaders and beliefs. Is that worth a lot of points?
    God: Not so much, Russ. A better use of your time would have been learning about Me and My Son, and using what you learned to become like Us.
    Russ: Oh. Are re-dos allowed? Judgment Day is not too late, right? Is there some makeup work I could do for extra credit? I could go mock some OTHER groups, if you want.
    God: It seems you just don't get what was important in life. Do you like warm weather--extremely warm, to be exact?

  15. #115
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default U of T Devil's Horn Sign




    William Mack Brown (born August 27,1951) the head coach of The University of Texas at Austin Longhorn football team is shown flashing the devil horn sign.
    Last edited by Mesenja; 01-13-2010 at 04:15 PM.

  16. #116
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default Devil's Horn Sign in Baseball




    Minnesota Twins pitcher Boof Bonser using the devil horn sign to show his allegiance to Satan.

  17. #117
    James Banta
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    First you said that Masons used the pentagram as a part of their secret ceremony and many of them have the same design on their aprons.
    Then when you are pressed to provide any evidence of your claim you back down and ask me if it makes any difference.
    What I said was that the use of a pentagram or five-pointed star in some Grand Lodge seals and banners as well as on the collar of office worn by the Masters of lodges and Grand Masters of Grand Lodges is strictly ornamental in nature. Once again you are proven wrong.
    I am not a mason are you? I have been told by the one I do know that there is nothing that is strictly ornamental about any symbol they use.. He is the same person that told me that these symbols are on their aprons.. He said the apron has no set style , no required or banded symbols.. He told me Yes he has seen some with such a decoration.. IHS jim

  18. #118
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default Wake up America

    Cross of Christ





    Satanic Cross





    Last edited by Mesenja; 01-13-2010 at 06:54 PM.

  19. #119
    Father_JD
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post



    William Mack Brown (born August 27,1951) the head coach of The University of Texas at Austin Longhorn football team is shown flashing the devil horn sign.
    LOL. My older daughter is a graduate of UT, and my younger daughter is a Senior there right now...

    Again, M-dude...what's GERMANE is to the INTENDED MEANING:

    In this case it means for the University of Texas Longhorns to WIN the game by "locking horns".

  20. #120
    Father_JD
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Then tell me how many people currently living truly love Jesus, FJD.
    a) Lots and lots
    b) none
    c) other answer that you will explain


    No doubt it's in the MILLIONS, jeff...but WHY do you always seek some kind of identifiable, exact NUMBER??


    BTW, I though this was the thread on whether the presence of stars on a church building prove that the church in question is satanic. Are we still on-topic?
    Well, my own thread of "Is the Mormon Deity Omnisicient" has taken some wild turns. No thread remains "pure".

  21. #121
    Mesenja
    Guest

    Default Is Jesus a heavy metal rocker?




    Ronnie James Dio making the Devil Horn Sign.






    From the Jack Palance Collection (yeah that Jack Palance)

  22. #122
    nrajeff
    Guest

    Default Actual video of Satan discovered

    Stop the presses, it appears that one of your intrepid members of the Ministry of Extremist Whistle****ers- or MEOW for short--has uncovered an actual video of Satan, and apparently he is LDS! Who knew? (Somehow Methodist Hillary Clinton is involved as well, for reasons that are unclear, but hey, it slanders the LDS so it must all be true, right?)

    Impeccable sources and top-notch scholarship! ENJOY!


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG0c5...1&feature=fvwp

  23. #123
    nrajeff
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    No doubt it's in the MILLIONS, jeff...

    ---But the BIBLE says that if a person truly loves Jesus, that person will keep His commandments. Are you saying that millions of people are keeping His commandments?

    Well, my own thread of "Is the Mormon Deity Omnisicient" has taken some wild turns. No thread remains "pure".
    ----"There are no threads that remain good, no not one....if we say a thread is without diversions and digressions, we are a liar and the truth is not in us."

  24. #124
    James Banta
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---But the BIBLE says that if a person truly loves Jesus, that person will keep His commandments. Are you saying that millions of people are keeping His commandments?


    ----"There are no threads that remain good, no not one....if we say a thread is without diversions and digressions, we are a liar and the truth is not in us."
    And since that is true and that Jesus said:
    John 13:34-35 (NAS)
    "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
    " By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

    In that you will find the full commandments of Jesus.. Is this what you have or is it that you have love for your church.. Nothing but a corporation under the laws of state.. IHS jim

  25. #125
    Father_JD
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---But the BIBLE says that if a person truly loves Jesus, that person will keep His commandments. Are you saying that millions of people are keeping His commandments?
    Of course!! You're betraying quite a bit of hubris here, jeff.


    ----"There are no threads that remain good, no not one....if we say a thread is without diversions and digressions, we are a liar and the truth is not in us."
    Good 'un.

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