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Thread: Is God unable to create in kind?

  1. #1
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Default Is God unable to create in kind?

    All of God's creations (speaking of living creations) are a testimony of life producing life after its kind. That life begets life, in kind.

    Is the God of orthodoxy unable to do this himself?

  2. #2
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    All of God's creations (speaking of living creations) are a testimony of life producing life after its kind. That life begets life, in kind.

    Is the God of orthodoxy unable to do this himself?
    I thought this was clear on the other thread:

    IS 46:9 For I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is no one like Me,

    Ripped from Answers.com:
    Like:
    prep.

    1. Possessing the characteristics of; resembling closely; similar to.
    2.
    1. In the typical manner of: It's not like you to take offense.
    2. In the same way as: lived like royalty.
    3. Inclined or disposed to: felt like running away.
    4. As if the probability exists for: looks like a bad year for farmers.
    5. Such as; for example: saved things like old newspapers and pieces of string.

    adj.

    1. Possessing the same or almost the same characteristics; similar: on this and like occasions.
    2. Alike: They are as like as two siblings.
    3. Having equivalent value or quality. Usually used in negative sentences: There's nothing like a good night's sleep.

    n.

    1. One similar to or like another. Used with the: was subject to coughs, asthma, and the like.
    2. Informal. An equivalent or similar person or thing; an equal or match. Often used in the plural: I've never seen the likes of this before. We'll never see his like again.

    Blessings,

    MacG
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  3. #3
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    I thought this was clear on the other thread:
    So you believe God cannot create in kind.

  4. #4
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    All of God's creations (speaking of living creations) are a testimony of life producing life after its kind. That life begets life, in kind.

    Is the God of orthodoxy unable to do this himself?

    You imply that makes God somehow less than "omnipotent", that He's "unable" to do this or that.

    Again, you've done the Mormon "thing" and made a CATEGORICAL ERROR. You have likened the eternal, UNCREATE SELF-EXISTENT UNIQUE GOD unto created, mortal beings.

    JS certainly succeeded in his DIMINUTION of God...that he's nothing more than a once-mortal schmuck who earned his godhood merit badge at some celestial jamboree.

  5. #5
    aaronshaf
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    The short answer is "yes" to the original question.

    But the answer is "yes" in Mormonism as well. In Mormonism, God does not really create after his own kind. In fact, his own kind are beings that are co-eternal and self-existent. Our particular God didn't given them their existence, and at spirit birth (if you affirm the traditional view of viviparous spirit-birth) he doesn't technically "make them after his own kind"; he merely clothes an existing co-eternal self-existent being already of the same fundamental species with a spirit-body.

    Put more succinctly, the Mormon God doesn't have the ability to create beings of the same species. He only has the ability to clothe co-eternal beings of the same species with different kinds of bodies.

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    Senior Member Libby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    All of God's creations (speaking of living creations) are a testimony of life producing life after its kind. That life begets life, in kind.

    Is the God of orthodoxy unable to do this himself?
    How can you create an uncreated being?

  7. #7
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    How can you create an uncreated being?
    One can't, hence the category error made by Figgy.

  8. #8
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    So you believe God cannot create in kind.
    To be sure, the God of the Bible cannot create another God of the Bible.

    Neither can He create a rock so big the He Himself cannot lift it.

    Blessings,

    MacG
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  9. #9
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    How can you create an uncreated being?
    You can't conjure up. But you can beget an uncreated being. Humans beget beings in kind all the time. Depending on your definition of "create" we don't create them do we?

  10. #10
    nrajeff
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    But you guys are missing an important implication of Fig's question:

    Is the deity you believe in able to give lower beings the same abilities (knowledge, immortality, etc.) that the deity has?

    The answer has to be either yes or no, and you guys are saying it's no, which is "interesting." CS Lewis and REAL Orthodox Christianity have taught that God IS able to do theosis--the glorification and edification of humans to the point of virtual deification. So the reader is forced to judge whether they--or you guys--are correct. I choose them. Logically, any omnipotent being should have the ability to share His abilities with other beings that He judges would be a good idea to share them with.

    If you wanted to claim "Yes, God, being literally omnipotent (except in the case of irrational dilemmas like the rock one) is ABLE to do it, but He just doesn't WANT to" then that would have been another debate, that you ALSO would have lost, but you didn't choose that option. You chose "God is UNABLE to fully share His knowledge and abilities with any other being, and He never will be able to do it." So you are stuck with your statement.

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    Senior Member Libby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    You can't conjure up. But you can beget an uncreated being. Humans beget beings in kind all the time. Depending on your definition of "create" we don't create them do we?
    No. God does that through the biological process He created.

    I'm just saying, it's not logical that an "uncreated" being could be created. God has no beginning or end, so He was not created...He has always existed. How could, even HE, "create" something that has always existed?

  12. #12
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    But you guys are missing an important implication of Fig's question:

    Is the deity you believe in able to give lower beings the same abilities (knowledge, immortality, etc.) that the deity has?

    The answer has to be either yes or no, and you guys are saying it's no, which is "interesting." CS Lewis and REAL Orthodox Christianity have taught that God IS able to do theosis--the glorification and edification of humans to the point of virtual deification. So the reader is forced to judge whether they--or you guys--are correct. I choose them. Logically, any omnipotent being should have the ability to share His abilities with other beings that He judges would be a good idea to share them with.

    If you wanted to claim "Yes, God, being literally omnipotent (except in the case of irrational dilemmas like the rock one) is ABLE to do it, but He just doesn't WANT to" then that would have been another debate, that you ALSO would have lost, but you didn't choose that option. You chose "God is UNABLE to fully share His knowledge and abilities with any other being, and He never will be able to do it." So you are stuck with your statement.
    I don't know from implications (perhaps you are used to looking for deficiencies where there are none) but Figs question is can God reproduce God? As in cats beget cats and man begets man etc reproducing after their own kind. The answer is no unless one takes the Q episodes of The Next Generation as gospel. The point that you raise though is different in this subtle way - those that He imparts gifts of knowledge and healings and glory as in Moses shining face, and the glorified bodies of flesh and bone in the future to etc. are not God the imparter/source of such things and are destined to be the creation for ever.

    Blessings,

    MacG
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  13. #13
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    No. God does that through the biological process He created.

    I'm just saying, it's not logical that an "uncreated" being could be created. God has no beginning or end, so He was not created...He has always existed. How could, even HE, "create" something that has always existed?
    So if God can create a biological process to beget life, why can't he create a spirit process to beget spirit life?

  14. #14
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    So if God can create a biological process to beget life, why can't he create a spirit process to beget spirit life?
    I am not saying that He didn't create spirit.. The Bible says that He did.. He just did it within us.. (Zech 12:1) Mormonism denys that saying that god created our spirits and place our preexisting spirit in it.. Like most LDS doctrine this one is upside down.. IHS jim

  15. #15
    stemelbow
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    Interesting question in light of mainstreamism. How could Jesus' person be uncreated if His person was not around before God created? Did Jesus' person become uncreated the very moment God conjured up the idea that He needed a Jesus (man/God) to save mankind?

    love,
    stem

  16. #16
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    All of God's creations (speaking of living creations) are a testimony of life producing life after its kind. That life begets life, in kind.

    Is the God of orthodoxy unable to do this himself?
    You are right he can't do what isn't possible to do.. He can't create an uncreated being... He can't create NOTHING, He can't make things that don't exist.. He isn't a God of contradictions.. Your question is foolishness.. IHS jim

  17. #17
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Interesting question in light of mainstreamism. How could Jesus' person be uncreated if His person was not around before God created? Did Jesus' person become uncreated the very moment God conjured up the idea that He needed a Jesus (man/God) to save mankind?

    love,
    stem
    John 1:1-2
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The same was in the beginning with God.

    That seems to answer your question.. Jesus was with God and Jesus is God.. There was never a time when the Father "conjured up the idea that He needed a Jesus (man/God) to save mankind". God was always there and always knew what He was doing the whole time.. IHS jim

  18. #18
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    I don't know from implications (perhaps you are used to looking for deficiencies where there are none)
    ---I don't know--I have been too busy finding deficiences where they DO exist, to get used to looking for what isn't there.
    Of course, I am hardly the first to notice deficiencies in a few of the doctrines of "traditional" Christianity--Pastors Roger Williams, John Wesley, Sebastian Franck, et al noticed them way earlier.


    but Figs question is can God reproduce God?
    ---Wouldn't you say that any being who is unable to reproduce is deficient? When inferior beings such as chimpanzees can have babies and teach those babies everything the parents know, and raise them to do everything the parents can do, how, logically thinking, could a DEITY be UNABLE to do similarly?

    The point that you raise though is different in this subtle way - those that He imparts gifts of knowledge and healings and glory as in Moses shining face, and the glorified bodies of flesh and bone in the future to etc. are not God the imparter/source of such things and are destined to be the creation for ever.
    ---Let's take the issue a step at a time:

    1. Is God able to have a child? Yes/No
    If no, then God is deficient in at least one way.

    2. If yes, is God able to impart to His children the ABILITIES and PERSONALITY TRAITS that He possesses (immortality, endless learning potential, wisdom, love, kindness, patience, etc.) ? Yes/No

  19. #19
    Senior Member Libby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---I don't know--I have been too busy finding deficiences where they DO exist, to get used to looking for what isn't there.
    Of course, I am hardly the first to notice deficiencies in a few of the doctrines of "traditional" Christianity--Pastors Roger Williams, John Wesley, Sebastian Franck, et al noticed them way earlier.



    ---Wouldn't you say that any being who is unable to reproduce is deficient? When inferior beings such as chimpanzees can have babies and teach those babies everything the parents know, and raise them to do everything the parents can do, how, logically thinking, could a DEITY be UNABLE to do similarly?


    ---Let's take the issue a step at a time:

    1. Is God able to have a child? Yes/No
    If no, then God is deficient in at least one way.

    2. If yes, is God able to impart to His children the ABILITIES and PERSONALITY TRAITS that He possesses (immortality, endless learning potential, wisdom, love, kindness, patience, etc.) ? Yes/No
    God clearly states (many times) that His children are "adopted" not pro-created. And I wouldn't at all presume that God is deficient in any way. But, He IS unique, as He also tells us many, many times in the Bible.

  20. #20
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    I am not saying that He didn't create spirit.. The Bible says that He did.. He just did it within us.. (Zech 12:1) Mormonism denys that saying that god created our spirits and place our preexisting spirit in it.. Like most LDS doctrine this one is upside down.. IHS jim
    Not quite. You are confused. Care to try again?

    Or you could always ask to find out what we really believe.

  21. #21
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    God clearly states (many times) that His children are "adopted" not pro-created. And I wouldn't at all presume that God is deficient in any way. But, He IS unique, as He also tells us many, many times in the Bible.
    Actually we ARE created BY God in the beginning--as he says--in his image and likeness.

    Then we may be born again through an adoption.

    We are all unique, Libby.

    When you bear children, you don't bear fully grown adults, or degreed lawyers or doctors. Children "become" as they progress.

  22. #22
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    God clearly states (many times) that His children are "adopted" not pro-created.
    ---Let's see these "many" times where God CLEARLY stated that He is unable to have children except through adoption.

    And I wouldn't at all presume that God is deficient in any way
    ---If you can do something good that He CAN'T, then "He is deficient" is the ONLY presumption available.

  23. #23
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Let's see these "many" times where God CLEARLY stated that He is unable to have children except through adoption.


    ---If you can do something good that He CAN'T, then "He is deficient" is the ONLY presumption available.
    That would mean that God created creatures that CAN do what He CANNOT do.

  24. #24
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Not quite. You are confused. Care to try again?

    Or you could always ask to find out what we really believe.
    Have you read and prayed about the meaning? Doesn't sound. I could get as hateful as you did here and was very tempted to be so.. Maybe you should take some time off so you can treat others with a level a civility..IHS jim

  25. #25
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Have you read and prayed about the meaning? Doesn't sound. I could get as hateful as you did here and was very tempted to be so.. Maybe you should take some time off so you can treat others with a level a civility..IHS jim
    I'm just saying that your information wasn't quite right. If you would like to be corrected, all you need do is ask...politely.

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