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Thread: Is God unable to create in kind?

  1. #276
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Not true. For a judge to be fair, he doesn't need to be everywhere simultaneously. He just needs to believe that it's important to treat people fairly, and act on that belief. I don't need to be omnipresent in order to treat each of my kids fairly. All I need to do is to take into account each child's individual circumstances, and not punish him for what he wasn't able to understand or do. In other words, I just need to be understanding and comp***ionate and empathetic. LDS believe that one of the things Jesus learned from His time on Earth as one of us, was empathy for our situation, which makes Him eminently qualified to be a fair judge of us.

    I say this because the Bible is so clear that God has predestined some to salvation an some to wrath.. Unless God knows how these people will respond to His offer of salvation through the Blood of Jesus it would be unjust to make such an arbitrary choice.. Thats what it would be for the Mormon god Not for the God of Christianity than knows all things and is everywhere in all times present.. Of course you can always deny the Bible AGAIN.. IHS jim

  2. #277
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    I say this because the Bible is so clear that God has predestined some to salvation an some to wrath.
    ---If unconditional predestination were totally clear, you'd think that half of Christendom wouldn't think they see Arminianism in it.
    Unless God knows how these people will respond to His offer of salvation through the Blood of Jesus it would be unjust to make such an arbitrary choice..
    ---So you're saying that Radix is wrong to believe that

    "The God who is creator of time and space knew he was taking a chance. If there is no choice, there is no love. (It would make each person) nothing but an executable program."

    Of course you can always deny the Bible AGAIN.. IHS jim
    ---So you're accusing Radix of denying the Bible.

  3. #278
    akaSeerone
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    Where is your reference for that Radix quote?

    Andy

  4. #279
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Thank you JD for a simple and courteous reply. Let's see if Radix will say the same thing.

    Marvin.
    There is frequently a better way to state something (at least with me), I should have stated that God does not predetermine for us whether we love Him or not.

    Chance was not used in the sense of any unknown. It was used in the sense of risk.

  5. #280
    nrajeff
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    Look it up, Andy, I ain't doing your homework for you today.

  6. #281
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---If unconditional predestination were totally clear, you'd think that half of Christendom wouldn't think they see Arminianism in it.

    ---So you're saying that Radix is wrong to believe that

    "The God who is creator of time and space knew he was taking a chance. If there is no choice, there is no love. (It would make each person) nothing but an executable program."


    ---So you're accusing Radix of denying the Bible.
    I have shown you how Arminianism works within the foreknowledge of God. They see things from man's perspective while trusting that God will save all who come to Him. Radix never said that he disagreed with me on that point. God takes no chances. He solved the problem of sin once for all. He did it all Himself so that it would be 100% PERFECT 100% truth.

    Tell me if you went to a playground and offered every boy there the choice between a large Hersey bar and a small bit sized one which one do you KNOW they will choose? The Large one every time! Did that take away their choice because you already knew what they would choose? NO, they could have the small one if that is what they wanted.. Can't you see it yet? We have a choice to make, Life with God forever, or Death in the Lake of fire. It's still a choice unfettered by the fact that God already knows what you will choose.. IHS jim

  7. #282
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    Where is your reference for that Radix quote?

    Andy
    Jeff won't do any of the work to support his posts. He just tells people to read a book, or like this case sift through all the posts until you find the one he wants you to see so he can make his point..

    While I don't believe a word he says about Radix it doesn't matter if he looks though Calvinistic lens or Armenian lens. Both believe that a person is saved by the Grace of God through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING.

    While the Calvinistic person would say that a person who leaves the church to live in unbelief was never saved, the Armenian would say that they fell from grace.. Ok that is semantic. Unsaved of dropped from salvation either one will say that such a person needs to have Jesus in their heart.. Jeff is straining at a gnat.. IHS jim

  8. #283
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    There is frequently a better way to state something (at least with me), I should have stated that God does not predetermine for us whether we love Him or not.

    Chance was not used in the sense of any unknown. It was used in the sense of risk.
    Using risk instead of chance changes nothing. It is a risk only if you cannot determine the out come. Risk or change, it is the same.

    Marvin

  9. #284
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Using risk instead of chance changes nothing. It is a risk only if you cannot determine the out come. Risk or change, it is the same.

    Marvin
    Not hardly, otherwise your just a predetermined program.

    I'm ***uming from your comments you do not think God has any insights what so ever about anything happening in the future.

  10. #285
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Not hardly, otherwise your just a predetermined program.

    I'm ***uming from your comments you do not think God has any insights what so ever about anything happening in the future.
    You ***ume wrong.

    Marvin

  11. #286
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Jeff won't do any of the work to support his posts.

    ----Doesn't my survey, (which I did for Billyray so he could see the falsity of his claim to know exactly what LDS believe, and his claim to know that LDS believe those doctrines he listed) prove that you aren't telling the truth, Jim?

    While I don't believe a word he says about Radix
    --That's because you are in denial.

  12. #287
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ----Doesn't my survey, (which I did for Billyray so he could see the falsity of his claim to know exactly what LDS believe, and his claim to know that LDS believe those doctrines he listed) prove that you aren't telling the truth, Jim?

    [/COLOR]
    Just because you do not believe something does not mean that the LDS church does not teach that particular teaching. Your own leaders have taught many things in the past. Just because you are embarr***ed about them and deny that they were taught does not change the fact that they were taught by your inspired leaders.

  13. #288
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Just because you do not believe something
    ---Well, do you claim to know "exactly" what I believe...or don't you?

    does not mean that the LDS church does not teach that particular teaching.
    ---So is your boast that you know exactly what LDS scriptures TEACH as official doctrine? Or is your boast that you know exactly what LDS members BELIEVE? Can you keep your story straight?

    Your own leaders have taught many things in the past.
    ---Here we go with "Orson Pratt said....the Seer published..."

    Hello? Question for you: Do you claim to know that LDS BELIEVE that what Pratt stated is true? That it's official doctrine? That it's TAUGHT as true, official doctrine? Or what? Just WHAT are boasting that you "KNOW, exactly"?
    Just because you are embarr***ed about them and deny that they were taught does not change the fact that they were taught by your inspired leaders
    ---The only one who should be embarr***ed is YOU. Tell, me, Mr. "I know exactly what LDS believe about God" -- when you were on your alleged mission for the LDS church, did YOU believe those 7 supposed doctrines? Did YOU teach them to YOUR investigators? If the missionaries aren't teaching it, and if the Sunday School teachers aren't teaching it, then how credible, how TRUTHFUL, is your claim that LDS members BELIEVE what you claim we believe? How, in your mind, do people come to believe stuff that isn't taught? And how truthful can your NEW claim that we TEACH it be, really, if we're not teaching it?

    Let's summarize: You claimed we believe things that we apparently DON'T believe, and so when you were caught in THAT false ***ertion, you changed your claim--you started saying, essentially "Well, it was allegedly ONCE TAUGHT, long ago, so that makes my claim that LDS believe it (present tense) somehow not a lie."

  14. #289
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Again loving stem, the god you propose is NOTHING more than a computer programmer. The God who is creator of time and space knew he was taking a chance. If there is no choice, there is no love. You are nothing but an executable program.
    I notice you have run from the opportunity to respond directly to my post, and have chosen to deflect instead. Oh well...that's pretty typical around here. Anyway, I was wondering if you would expand upon your concept of God taking a chance. If God was taking a chance by creating, what chance was he taking? In what way was the very one who conceived of all evil deeds long before anyone or anything was created, according to your beliefs, taking a chance?

    I guess if you believe the god you worship also sinned, then sin was already in existence. But as for Christians, God is truly Holy. No one has to impart Holiness to Him.
    You have mischaracterized my words again. I understand your need to do such when faced with the logical arguments showing the foolishness of your beliefs...But such attempts are merely deflections--your attempts, in other words, are wrought with logical fallacies.

    love,
    stem

  15. #290
    nrajeff
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    Billy, are you sensing that your allegations and attacks just ain't gonna fly here? Did you think you could come storming in here and bulldoze right over us? Did you think you'd have an easy time bee essing us into abandoning beliefs that we have been defending probably since before you were out of high school? Did you think you could attack with impunity? Did you think that we'd be handicapped by unfairly applied moderating, so we'd be unable to pick out inconsistencies in your attacks? If you thought that, I trust you are becoming disabused of those mistaken ***umptions.

  16. #291
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post

    Well, do you claim to know "exactly" what I believe...or don't you?


    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Jeff again you are caught in a lie. I was LDS and I know exactly what LDS believe about god and what you said is not what I said, but what YOU said.

    Just so you know--these are characteristics of the LDS god.
    1. A man who became a god
    2. Was not god from everlasting to everlasting
    3. Progressed in knowledge
    4. Is married to many women
    5. Had sex with his wifes in heaven to produce spiritual babies
    6. Had sex with his daughter Mary to produce Jesus
    7. Is one of many gods--polytheism.
    Here is my quote in context. Recall the exchange. You made up a fabrication about your god and attributed it to me which was completely false. I then proceeded to give you a list of LDS beliefs about your god. You have yet to disprove this list. You may or may not believe what your leaders have taught.



    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post

    Here we go with "Orson Pratt said....the Seer published..."
    BTW I quoted your prophet Brigham Young from the Journal of Discourses.

    But I find it odd that you throw one of your own leaders under the bus if you do not agree with what they have said. Orson Pratt was one of your own leaders. "Orson Pratt (September 19, 1811 – October 3, 1881) was a leader in the Latter Day Saint movement and an original member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles." (Wikipedia) Do you think that Orson Pratt was wrong? What about your other inspired leaders were they wrong as well?

  17. #292
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    Billy, are you sensing that your allegations and attacks just ain't gonna fly here? Did you think you could come storming in here and bulldoze right over us? Did you think you'd have an easy time bee essing us into abandoning beliefs that we have been defending probably since before you were out of high school? Did you think you could attack with impunity? Did you think that we'd be handicapped by unfairly applied moderating, so we'd be unable to pick out inconsistencies in your attacks? If you thought that, I trust you are becoming disabused of those mistaken ***umptions.
    I don't think it is easy to pry people away from false religions. These people have served false prophets and a false gospel most of their lives and most will not change even though it may become obvious to them that what their leaders have taught is false. Again you are using the a common LDS tactic of trying to discredit the messenger rather than the message. The LDS church is false. It teaches doctrine that are not Biblical. Yet the best you can do is to try and find a "gotcha" from one of my posts to try and bolster your belief in Mormonism. You are avoiding the real issue and that is the LDS believe a false god that has characteristics that are clearly not Biblical.

  18. #293
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post

    . . .when you were on your alleged mission for the LDS church, did YOU believe those 7 supposed doctrines?
    I sure did.

    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post

    Did YOU teach them to YOUR investigators?
    Absolutely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post

    If the missionaries aren't teaching it, and if the Sunday School teachers aren't teaching it, then how credible, how TRUTHFUL, is your claim that LDS members BELIEVE what you claim we believe?
    Jeff you know the answer to this question. Milk before meat. You would never teach investigators these deeper doctrine. There are a lot of things that the LDS church teaches or has taught in the past that are not brought up with investigators or in a routine Sunday School lesson. Polygamous relationships of Joseph Smith was never brought up in a Sunday School cl*** that I ever attended and never brought up in missionary discussion--yet this is certainly a fact of history. Details of the Temple endowment are clearly not taught to investigators or in a Sunday School cl***--yet this is clearly taught by the LDS church.

  19. #294
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I sure did.
    ---And you ***umed that the vast majority of all the OTHER LDS believed all 7? Why? Even if they were taught as "secret" truths restricted to temple goers, that would only mean that a small minority of LDS believed them. Of course, the FACT is that at least 4,5, and 6 aren't taught in the temple or in any other place as doctrine. So WHY did YOU believe them? And, perhaps as least as important: Why do you think most of US do NOT subscribe to them? Are we just less-informed than you were? Are we less gullible? Or what?

    Jeff you know the answer to this question. Milk before meat. You would never teach investigators these deeper doctrine.
    --I would never teach people stuff that I myself don't subscribe to.


    There are a lot of things that the LDS church teaches or has taught in the past that are not brought up with investigators or in a routine Sunday School lesson. Polygamous relationships of Joseph Smith was never brought up in a Sunday School cl*** that I ever attended and never brought up in missionary discussion--yet this is certainly a fact of history.
    --But not a doctrine. History is for history cl*** sometimes. The issue is whether the church teaches all your 7 as doctrine, and if you could prove it does (which you can't, of course), your next step would be to show that the vast majority of LDS BELIEVE them. Which of course you can't do.
    Last edited by nrajeff; 03-22-2010 at 04:00 AM. Reason: changed "even it" to "even if"

  20. #295
    grindael
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    Brigham Young gave a reason why his followers would not believe his doctrines:

    "Some years ago, I advanced A DOCTRINE with regard to Adam being our Father and God. That [doctrine] will be a curse to many of the Elders of Israel, because of their folly with regard to it. They yet grovel in darkness, and will. It is one of the most glorious revealments of the economy of Heaven, yet the world hold[s] it [in] derision. Had I revealed the doctrine of Baptism for the dead instead of Joseph Smith, there are men around me who would have ridiculed the idea until doomsday, but they are ****** and ****** like the dumb ***." (10/8/1861, M****cript addresses of Brigham Young)

  21. #296
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by grindael View Post
    Brigham Young gave a reason why his followers would not believe his doctrines:

    "Some years ago, I advanced A DOCTRINE with regard to Adam being our Father and God. That [doctrine] will be a curse to many of the Elders of Israel, because of their folly with regard to it. They yet grovel in darkness, and will. It is one of the most glorious revealments of the economy of Heaven, yet the world hold[s] it [in] derision. Had I revealed the doctrine of Baptism for the dead instead of Joseph Smith, there are men around me who would have ridiculed the idea until doomsday, but they are ****** and ****** like the dumb ***." (10/8/1861, M****cript addresses of Brigham Young)
    ---Funny that "iggnerent" gets censored but "dumb ***" doesn't--love the autocensor.

  22. #297
    Radix
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    Well loving Stem, I'll answer your question again.

    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    I think you're wrong in your attempt to mischaracterize my position as proposing a God who is nothing more than a computer programmer. The last sentence of this paragraph is merely a deflection from my point. Allow me to ask you a few questions to get to the root of it.
    Can you explain how you are not trying to make God into nothing more than a programmer in these discussions?

    Did God create ex nihilo in your opinion?
    Yes He did. He also created love and choice. Your series of questions does not seem to allow for that.

    Did God know, and in fact, conceive of every deed any of His yet to be created creatures would do before He created them?
    Does God design that we do evil? No. God has the foreknowledge to know what we will do. But He is not the author of our sin. We are the author of our sins.

    Thus, if God knew of every evil deed any of His creatures would do before He created them, then that would require that the evil that would be practiced originated in God's own conception, right? For instance Lucifer's rebellion has direct ties to God's knowledge before Lucifer ever was. If God did not conceive of Lucifer's rebellion before creating him from nothing, then Lucifer would never have rebelled. If that is not so, then God would not have really created lucifer from nothing knowing all that he would be.
    Already answered.

    If God created absolutely, that is from nothing essentially, then His creations are only a product of what He conceived of them to be. Taking your beliefs logically, God could very well have conceived of every non-existing creature, at the time before He created any, as that which would not do evil...But He did not. Thus, all evil is traced back to His own conception.
    With no choice, there is no love. Only executable computer programs.



    But such is merely a matter of deflection. You see, even if as you suggest, "LDS believe that their god wanted Adam to sin", sin already was. Evil was already practiced. Thus evil itself cannot be traced back to God's conception for LDS. Logically speaking LDS are free from the conclusion that God is the source of evil, as mainstreamism, if logically considered, requires.

    love,
    stem
    LDS may not believe their God conceived evil, but your god seems to condone it as he did in your belief about Adam.

  23. #298
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Well loving Stem, I'll answer your question again.
    Again would require you actually answered them to being with. But I'll take anything I can get from you folks.

    Can you explain how you are not trying to make God into nothing more than a programmer in these discussions?
    If I am not, I am not. There is no explanation. Your effort was to suggest my beliefs make God into a programmer. I am not trying to make God into anything, in fact. I am merely challenging your claims in this thread, so far.

    Yes He did. He also created love and choice. Your series of questions does not seem to allow for that.
    Great.

    Does God design that we do evil? No. God has the foreknowledge to know what we will do. But He is not the author of our sin. We are the author of our sins.
    I see you side-stepped the question and hence failed to answer it again. here it is again: "Did God know, and in fact, conceive of every deed any of His yet to be created creatures would do before He created them?"

    Care to try again?

    Already answered.
    Actually no. My questions were quite direct, but your answers did not address them in every case. I do not see an answer to my questions here. Here is this question again:

    "Thus, if God knew of every evil deed any of His creatures would do before He created them, then that would require that the evil that would be practiced originated in God's own conception, right?"

    I add to that this one:

    "If God did not conceive of Lucifer's rebellion before creating him from nothing, then Lucifer would never have rebelled, right?"

    With no choice, there is no love. Only executable computer programs.
    Interesting. I just explained how your beliefs force God, if taken logically, to be the very source of all evil, and your response was, it seems, that there had to be choice because without such there is no love? You do realize that the very logical conclusion that I laid out for you explains how, in essence, if your beliefs are true, no one has absolute choice (I'll re-explain below just for you). Thus, according to your logic, now, there is no love at all. Now its obvious, all according to your logic, God did not create love, even though you tried to sneak that in earlier.

    All according to your beliefs, if taken logically: God created all things out of nothing. Before creating out of nothing, God conceived of every single deed, good or bad (but since no one does good then in actuality only bad), that each of His creations would do. For instance, before creating satan out of nothing, before Satan was in existence, God conceived of every evil act Satan would do long before Satan ever had the opportunity to conceive of those evil acts. On top of that, if God did not conceive of every evil act Satan would do, according to your beliefs, then Satan would not have done one evil act. All because God had to know, had to conceive of, really, every deed each of his creations would do before they exist[ed]. As a result, we all do only that which God conceived that each of us would do. Thus, any actual "choice" we make is traced back to God's conception.

    These are the only conclusions to draw from your errant belief system.

    LDS may not believe their God conceived evil, but your god seems to condone it as he did in your belief about Adam.
    Not true. Nice attempted deflection though.

    love,
    stem

  24. #299
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ----Doesn't my survey, (which I did for Billyray so he could see the falsity of his claim to know exactly what LDS believe, and his claim to know that LDS believe those doctrines he listed) prove that you aren't telling the truth, Jim?


    --That's because you are in denial.
    I have been though every post you made in this thread and I saw no survey. I know you never asked me anything about mormon doctrine that I haven't known or wasn't able to look up quickly.. There have been many things you have said here that are NOT official LDS doctrine and if I tried to pin it on other mormons they would bock and say "That isn't official mormon doctrine".. There is a very wide divide between "official" LDS doctrine and what mormons actually believe.. It is a very wide gulf between the two..

    I have a list of Unique mormon beliefs, while it isn't all inclusive it does explain that I do know what mormonism teaches, official or not.. Most of these were taken from what I was taught as a mormon. I have listed references from mormon doctrine as they apply..

    1. Melchizedek priesthood offices of Elder and Seventy, High Priests, Seventy, and Apostles.. ( D&C 107) A man must be a Melchizedek priesthood holder to enter the temple. (Temple ceremony First and second tokens of the Melchizedek priesthood)
    2. Temple work. (D&C 138: 48)
    3. Temple marriage, this is over and above the endowment. (D&C 132: 19-20).
    4. Becoming a God (I don't believe that becoming a god on earth is a requirement for exaltation. It is the goal of all mormon men and uniquely mormon but not a requirement for exaltation.. Most mormons believe it will take a lot longer than this life to become a god of their own world. Most hold they will move from precept to precept learning how to become like the Father.. The fist few million years or so of exaltation will be sort of being enrolled in a god school). (History of the Church Vol 6)
    5. Being LDS (Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine p 670)
    6. Laying on of hands (D&C 10:55)
    7. God has a body as tangible as man's (D&C 130:22)
    8. There are three different degrees of Glory. Three separate heavens for differing degrees of individual righteousness. (D&C 76)
    9. Jesus is the spiritual brother of not only all mankind but Satan and all the demons as well.. (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 243)
    10. Everything was formed spiritually in a preexistence before being formed here on earth naturally.. (PofPG, Moses 3:5)
    11. Jesus was not always God but became a god by obedience to the Father (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 243)
    12. The Father was not always God. He once lived in a mortal existence like we are now. He became a god through obedience to the Laws and ordinances given to Him by his god.. (History of the Church, vol. 6)
    13. He is not the only God in existence. He himself has a god.. There are an infinite number of Gods all related to each other.. (The Ensign, Nov. 1975, page 80)
    14. While god is not eternally god, the elements eternal and there is an infinite quan***y of such.. (D&C 93: 33)
    15. The Holy Ghost is a god that was able to skip all the requirements of the gospel and become a god without receiving a body first. No one knows how this is possible according to Joseph Smith getting a Body is a requirement in advancement to godhood. (While it is not know how this could be it is clear that the Holy Ghost is a god in mormonism; GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES
    God, Godhead, LDS.org)
    16. God will not allow his prophets to go astray and teach error to the church. When the prophets does do that God will correct the error after that prophet is gone.. This contradiction is proven in Brigham Young's teaching of Adam-God.. (BYU Devotional ***embly on February 26, 1980, President Ezra Taft Benson; Sermon delivered on June 8, 1873. Printed in the Deseret Weekly News, June 18, 1873.)
    17. God is subject to time and space as we are. He can only be in one place at one time. He is not present in the past or the future.
    (The Articles of Faith, pg. 39).
    18. While mormon will tell you that Jesus said it is finished just before His death on the cross they believe that God has not revealed all that he wants to reveal and he will continue to reveal more.. (Artical of faith #8)

    If these prove me to be the liar you make me out to be please show me how.. IHS jim

  25. #300
    Radix
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    . Thus, any actual "choice" we make is traced back to God's conception.

    These are the only conclusions to draw from your errant belief system.

    love,
    stem
    Loving Stem,

    Only if God is nothing more than a computer programmer.

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