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Thread: Is God unable to create in kind?

  1. #301
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    ....Your effort was to suggest my beliefs make God into a programmer. I am not trying to make God into anything, in fact. I am merely challenging your claims in this thread, so far.

    "Thus, if God knew of every evil deed any of His creatures would do before He created them, then that would require that the evil that would be practiced originated in God's own conception, right?"

    I add to that this one:

    "If God did not conceive of Lucifer's rebellion before creating him from nothing, then Lucifer would never have rebelled, right?"

    Interesting. I just explained how your beliefs force God, if taken logically, to be the very source of all evil, and your response was, it seems, that there had to be choice because without such there is no love? You do realize that the very logical conclusion that I laid out for you explains how, in essence, if your beliefs are true, no one has absolute choice (I'll re-explain below just for you). Thus, according to your logic, now, there is no love at all. Now its obvious, all according to your logic, God did not create love, even though you tried to sneak that in earlier.

    All according to your beliefs, if taken logically: God created all things out of nothing. Before creating out of nothing, God conceived of every single deed, good or bad (but since no one does good then in actuality only bad), that each of His creations would do. For instance, before creating satan out of nothing, before Satan was in existence, God conceived of every evil act Satan would do long before Satan ever had the opportunity to conceive of those evil acts. On top of that, if God did not conceive of every evil act Satan would do, according to your beliefs, then Satan would not have done one evil act. All because God had to know, had to conceive of, really, every deed each of his creations would do before they exist[ed]. As a result, we all do only that which God conceived that each of us would do. Thus, any actual "choice" we make is traced back to God's conception.

    These are the only conclusions to draw from your errant belief system. ...
    ---I am still in agreement with you, Stem, that these Augustinian/Calvinistic beliefs, if taken to their logical conclusion, lead to the idea that God MUST be the "First Cause" of all the evil in the universe, including the rebellion of a third of the host of heaven.

    PS--Good catch, noting that if "There are none that do good" is universally, literally true, then God isn't responsible for all the good that people do since there aren't any people who do any good! I didn't think of that.

  2. #302
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---I am still in agreement with you, Stem, that these Augustinian/Calvinistic beliefs, if taken to their logical conclusion, lead to the idea that God MUST be the "First Cause" of all the evil in the universe, including the rebellion of a third of the host of heaven.

    PS--Good catch, noting that if "There are none that do good" is universally, literally true, then God isn't responsible for all the good that people do since there aren't any people who do any good! I didn't think of that.
    This is just weird. How can people believe such weird stuff? Calvinism must be a "CULT", is all I can say.

  3. #303
    Father_JD
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    Nope. You keep ignoring SECONDARY CAUSES.

  4. #304
    stemelbow
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    I appreciate your attempted escape-hatch route for what it is. Instead of dealing with my argument you deflect, vaguely exclaiming that you've made a case for your claim of computer programmer when you have not. Sadly, that is probably the best a mainstreamer can do when faced with an argument explaining the silliness of his/her beliefs. Your response is typical.

    love,
    stem

  5. #305
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Originally Posted by Father_JD
    "Attempt"?? I succeeded, stemmy. Why you can't see the obvious is beyond me!

    Because IF your Mormo-deity IS OMNISCIENT (which in reality you DENY, although you're still trying to affirm that he is), he KNEW ALL OF HIS LITTLE SPIRIT CHIL'S FUTURE ACTIONS..."EVIL DEEDS AND DESIGNS"...So, stem, does the Mormo-deity possess OMNISCIENCE or NOT???

    You're basically saying he does NOT!!
    We've been down this deflection road of your's, JD. remember? The argument I've raised is not fully reliant on whether God know all the deeds, its that not only did He know they were coming but He actually conceived of the evil deeds, if you take mainstreamism to its logical conclusion. Of course God is omniscient. He knows all things, even things to come. Now, that we've established that for the hundredth time, how about we move on to the bulk of the argument that you keep avoiding?

    LOL. It's ALL ABOUT "whether God KNEW evil would be", stem. The issue has been Mormo-god's OMNISCIENCE or lack thereof. You're DEFLECTING. You've said in so many words that the Mormo-god is NOT omniscient, although you continue to play your game of "Nuh-uh"!!
    You know as well as I that I've never suggested God is not omniscient. Your game, in your mind, has worked well in you avoiding the issue. But most people can see the silliness of your game for what it is. I too would hate to be in your shoes running from every opportunity to engage in hopes no one notices the hollow beliefs you have. Its true...you are in a very tough position. No wonder you play games in hopes of sounding clever.

    Quote:
    Irrelevant, stemster. But IF your Mormo-god is really OMNISCIENT, he couldn't help but KNOW ALL OF LUCIFER'S FUTURE EVIL DEEDS AND ACTIONS. Again, stem...WHY can't you see this?

    And that's MY argument, stem. It's YOU who's decided to play this inane game of BLAMING God for evil.
    I know your argument is an effort to suggest well LDS believe similarly as me;therefore they are just as guilty. sadly it just doesn't hold any water. For one, it hardly releases you of the burden of addressing the argument. For two, it doesn't even respond to the crux of the argument.

    Ya just can't have it both ways, Stemster, although you Mos ALWAYS try to have your cake (Mormo-god is OMNISCIENT) and eat it too (Mormo-god didn't know his spirit chil' Lucifer was gonna be evil).
    Silly strawmen will, seemingly, always be the hallmark of JD's apologetic. I have resigned myself to accepting that notion.

    LOL. And just how did I "misunderstand" you, stem? I understand you only too well. You're a product of Pavlovian conditioning which makes it somehow possible for you to hold to two mutually-exclusive truth claims simultaneously.

    You can't even begin to see your illogical thinking here.
    The explanations have already been laid before you, JD. Your tricky sounding rhetoric has been exposed again. Go back and re-read the argument, and perhaps you'll be able to address it head-on this time, instead of silly attempts to side-step followed by absurd conclusions about what I believe in some vain hope to bring my beliefs down the tubes with your own. Why you concede your beliefs belong down the tubes is somewhat valiant of ya, but to presuppose mine must follow yours is not proposing a sound argument.

    love,
    stem

  6. #306
    stemelbow
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    Haha...funny hypocrisy biting another critic of LDS on the caboose--claiming Jeff attacked you when all he really did was point out the inconsistent way in which you replied. Now, if'n ya could actually engage the arguments presented to you then you could start gaining credibility to your claim of knowing LDS Christianity is false and that its not biblical. So far, all I see is mainstreamism as being the main culprit of falsehood. Thus, I challenge you. If ya can't deal with the challenges then outta the kitchen you ought to go.

    love,
    stem

  7. #307
    stemelbow
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    Talk about ignoring, JD. You've been ignoring the arguments in favor of running to deflections such as SECONDARY CAUSES, along with silly attempts to bring down LDS belief with your own--tacitly conceding the errors in your own beliefs. If'n ya actually think about it, your beliefs are indeed weird, as Fig pointed out. Not enough thinking about it amongst you and your fellow mainstreamers, sadly. Dem brains weren't made for thinking is the apparent theme of mainstreamism.

    love,
    stem

  8. #308
    James Banta
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    [stemelbow;51706]We've been down this deflection road of your's, JD. remember? The argument I've raised is not fully reliant on whether God know all the deeds, its that not only did He know they were coming but He actually conceived of the evil deeds, if you take mainstreamism to its logical conclusion. Of course God is omniscient. He knows all things, even things to come. Now, that we've established that for the hundredth time, how about we move on to the bulk of the argument that you keep avoiding?
    Here then is the real straw man Stem. You want your God to be omniscient but when we confirm that our God is you lay the world's sin on Him as the cause all the while denying that the god of mormonism is guilty of anything.. Yet what does it say in your own scripture?
    Abraham 2:22-24
    And it came to p*** when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord asaid unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;
    Therefore it shall come to p***, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say—She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise:
    Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.

    Commanded to lie by God Himself.. This wasn't the only time God Commanded a man to commit sin. Nephi was commanded to execute Laban while he lay unable to defend himself. Before he had the LAW given right to face his accusers. NO God in that case commanded murder. And there was Adam. He was given two commandments both of which there was no way to keep.. God forced his into sin.. Then Stem chimes along and says that because the God of the Bible knows all the sin any one will ever commit that instead of the man being guilty it is God's wickedness..

    Stem the unforgivable sin is to say that Jesus has a demon. You sir are getting VERY VERY close to that sin.. Please repent of this wickedness and come to the God revealed in the Bible the God of ALL creation, Jesus the Christ. IHS jim

  9. #309
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    ... Then Stem chimes along and says that because the God of the Bible knows all the sin any one will ever commit that instead of the man being guilty it is God's wickedness.. Stem the unforgivable sin is to say that Jesus has a demon. You sir are getting VERY VERY close to that sin..
    ---The big mistake in the above accusation is the part I bolded. The other mistake is thinking that Stem is accusing Jesus of having a demon, which is just nonsense.

    It's not merely the Tulipitarian belief that God KNOWS all people's sins, that is the problem. It's that omniscience COMBINED with the doctrines of absolute sovereignty and omnipotence and arbitrary predestination that lead, inexorably, to the conclusion that the God of Tulipitarianism is 100% responsible for all the evil done in the universe. I think Stem and Fig add "creatio ex nihilo" to list of problems, which makes the responsibility even more clear. You guys believe that salvation is unconditional--that nothing WE do makes one person qualified for salvation, and nothing we FAIL to do makes another person unqualified for salvation. You believe that it's ALL GOD, ALL His doing, ALL His totally unmerited grace, and that it would be blasphemy or heresy for a person to believe that it's only 99% God, and that people need to do 1% in order to qualify for salvation.

    Therefore, you guys believe that not only does God know all the sins people commit--God also DECREED or willed all those sins, since He had all power to create NON-evil people had He wanted to (doctrine of omnipotence). And there was nobody who could tell God to create people a DIFFERENT way than He wanted them created, such as part good and part evil (doctrine of sovereignty). And we have ZERO say in whether we will end up in heaven or hell, because God MADE some of us to BE nothing but vessels of wrath, designed by the Potter to be shattered after being created (doctrines of sovereignty and predestination). How can a pot that was designed, from the beginning, by the Potter to be discarded, magically turn into a pot that was destined to be saved from the pottery s**** pile? IT CAN'T. It has NO say in that, and the Potter's decisions are FINAL, since the Potter NEVER changes his mind. Which leaves the pot 100% helpless in deciding or changing his fate.


    Behold the horrible travesty that IS Tulip-Trinitarianism. Plus, it's illogical. And how does ANY of the refutation of Tulip-Trinitarianism equal an accusation that Jesus has a demon? Hello?
    Last edited by nrajeff; 03-27-2010 at 12:45 PM.

  10. #310
    akaSeerone
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    God chose to create people with a free choice, not non evil robots.

    Sorry Jeff, mormonism simply denies what the Bible plainly tells us and tries to redefine the very words of the Bible to hopelessly try to make mormoism seem true.

    BTW: God will not answer a prayer to find out if the BofM is true....2 Peter, the first chapter.....so what ever spirit told you it was true was a demon and that proves you were deceived and went down hill from there because you bought into the lie.

    Andy

  11. #311
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    BTW: God will not answer a prayer to find out if the BofM is true....2 Peter, the first chapter.....so what ever spirit told you it was true was a demon and that proves you were deceived and went down hill from there because you bought into the lie.

    Andy
    Well, i guess all those CLDS who retort with "Yeah, well I asked God and he told me it was false" must've been deceived by a lying demon. Then it was all downhill from there for them.

  12. #312
    akaSeerone
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    Obviously you did not read 2 Peter the first chapter.

    Andy

  13. #313
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    God chose to create people with a free choice, not non evil robots.
    ---Then you reject the Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination. LDS believe that God chose to create people with a free choice, not non-evil robots, and not EVIL robots either. He left it up to US whether we would become evil or not. That is what free choice is all about, and that is what TULIP contradicts.
    Sorry Jeff, mormonism simply denies what the Bible plainly tells us
    ---But Mormonism claims the same as YOU claim--that God gave us free will and the freedom to choose good or evil, with no pre-destining of those things. So if you agree with the LDS, but the LDS deny what the Bible tells us, then YOU deny what the Bible tells us, too.

    BTW: God will not answer a prayer to find out if the BofM is true....2 Peter, the first chapter
    ---I just finished reading that chapter, and I didn't see a verse that says "God will not answer a prayer to find out if the BOM is true." But I DID find:

    Matthew 7:8
    For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

    Matthew 21:22
    And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

    plus others.

  14. #314
    akaSeerone
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    The verses you gave are out of context for what I was talking about.

    Peter said that the Bible was a more sure word than hearing from God Himself and add to that the account that Jesus talked about with the rich man and Lazarus, where Abraham told the rich man that it would do no good to send anyone back because they have the Law and the Prophets just like you do. In other words you have the Bible and since the BofM contradicts the Bible, mormonism is false.

    And that tells us that God will not answer a prayer to know if the BofM is true and if Smith was a Prophet....The Bible tells us that Smith was not a Prophet and that another Gospel know as mormonis is not true.

    Think about it....where you spend eternity depends on it.

    Andy

  15. #315
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    Peter said that the Bible was a more sure word than hearing from God Himself
    ---Peter said that? Wow. Paul seemed to be more impressed by hearing from Jesus Himself, than Paul ever did reading the Bible.

    And that tells us that God will not answer a prayer to know if the BofM is true and if Smith was a Prophet
    ---As Vlad pointed out: There are CLDS who say "I prayed to find out whether the BOM was true, and God told me it was false."

    Are you saying those people were deceived by a lying demon? Or that those people are just lying?

  16. #316
    stemelbow
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    James,

    "Then Stem chimes along and says that because the God of the Bible knows all the sin any one will ever commit that instead of the man being guilty it is God's wickedness.. "

    You missed my argument, Jim. Perhaps an effort to go back and revisit it will help you understand the points I've made. So far its obvious you haven't grasped them. Please revisit them.

    Stem the unforgivable sin is to say that Jesus has a demon. You sir are getting VERY VERY close to that sin.. Please repent of this wickedness and come to the God revealed in the Bible the God of ALL creation, Jesus the Christ.
    Problem being, and this is quite obvious to those who actually think for themselves, the God you preach is not the God of the Bible. The god you preach is teh very source of all evil. I can't follow such silliness....sorry Jim.

    You ought to repent of the notions you place upon God because its nothing but a subtle effort to make the real God look bad. Please do so, seek God in ways you never though possible before and you may very well be enlightened. I pray for this.

    love,
    stem

    love,
    stem

  17. #317
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    James,

    "Then Stem chimes along and says that because the God of the Bible knows all the sin any one will ever commit that instead of the man being guilty it is God's wickedness.. "

    You missed my argument, Jim. Perhaps an effort to go back and revisit it will help you understand the points I've made. So far its obvious you haven't grasped them. Please revisit them.



    Problem being, and this is quite obvious to those who actually think for themselves, the God you preach is not the God of the Bible. The god you preach is teh very source of all evil. I can't follow such silliness....sorry Jim.

    You ought to repent of the notions you place upon God because its nothing but a subtle effort to make the real God look bad. Please do so, seek God in ways you never though possible before and you may very well be enlightened. I pray for this.

    love,
    stem

    love,
    stem
    Is the real God indeed the God of the mind of a man, is He a created thing? Is He the work of another god/man's hand and that god in turn the work of yet another god/man and so on back into eternity past? This is not what the Bible tells me. It says that God is from everlasting to everlasting not just as my coequal intelligence in some distant past time, but as God:
    Psalm 90:2
    Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

    And Stem has the brazen to say that his god, his idol made in the depths of Joseph Smith's mind is the real God.. A God that is NOT been God from everlasting. That will form others to become gods in the future. Defying the word of the Eternal. And when I reject this god this other Savior you scoff..

    Dear Lord melt this hardend heart, open this blind eye to your glory, and bring him to yourself.. IHS jim

  18. #318
    stemelbow
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    Indeed, James, I'm sure it will take you an effort to seek God in ways you never thought possible for you to come to an understanding of His nature. I hope it comes sooner rather than later.

    love,
    stem

  19. #319
    Father_JD
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    Originally Posted by Father_JD
    "Attempt"?? I succeeded, stemmy. Why you can't see the obvious is beyond me!

    Because IF your Mormo-deity IS OMNISCIENT (which in reality you DENY, although you're still trying to affirm that he is), he KNEW ALL OF HIS LITTLE SPIRIT CHIL'S FUTURE ACTIONS..."EVIL DEEDS AND DESIGNS"...So, stem, does the Mormo-deity possess OMNISCIENCE or NOT???

    You're basically saying he does NOT!!

    We've been down this deflection road of your's, JD. remember? The argument I've raised is not fully reliant on whether God know all the deeds, its that not only did He know they were coming but He actually conceived of the evil deeds, if you take mainstreamism to its logical conclusion. Of course God is omniscient. He knows all things, even things to come. Now, that we've established that for the hundredth time, how about we move on to the bulk of the argument that you keep avoiding?

    But the argument is precisely that, stem: FULLY reliant on whether God knows ALL the deeds of anyone IN ADVANCE. If so, then even Mormo-god KNEW IN ADVANCE that his little spirit-chil' Lucifer was gonna become a bad egg...even BEFORE he and one of his goddess honies PROCREATED him. THEN, according to YOUR thinking, even Mormo-god is OMNISCIENT and is RESPONSIBLE...and also CONCEIVED OF LUCIFER'S EVIL. Why you FAIL to grasp this is nothing short of amazing, stem.

    In reality, you've DENIED Mormo-god's omniscience, having chalked up his "knowledge" of Lucifer's future actions UPON PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE OF MORMO-GOD. What does this MEAN, stem? That Mormo-god made and EDUCATED GUESS of what Lucifer would do, based upon his PAST EXPERIENCE.

    Therefore you have in essence NEGATED Mormo-god's omnscience. Do I really need to spell it out to you yet again???


    Quote:
    LOL. It's ALL ABOUT "whether God KNEW evil would be", stem. The issue has been Mormo-god's OMNISCIENCE or lack thereof. You're DEFLECTING. You've said in so many words that the Mormo-god is NOT omniscient, although you continue to play your game of "Nuh-uh"!!


    You know as well as I that I've never suggested God is not omniscient. Your game, in your mind, has worked well in you avoiding the issue. But most people can see the silliness of your game for what it is. I too would hate to be in your shoes running from every opportunity to engage in hopes no one notices the hollow beliefs you have. Its true...you are in a very tough position. No wonder you play games in hopes of sounding clever.
    You're deflecting yet again. See answer above, stem.


    Quote:
    Irrelevant, stemster. But IF your Mormo-god is really OMNISCIENT, he couldn't help but KNOW ALL OF LUCIFER'S FUTURE EVIL DEEDS AND ACTIONS. Again, stem...WHY can't you see this?

    And that's MY argument, stem. It's YOU who's decided to play this inane game of BLAMING God for evil.

    I know your argument is an effort to suggest well LDS believe similarly as me;therefore they are just as guilty. sadly it just doesn't hold any water. For one, it hardly releases you of the burden of addressing the argument. For two, it doesn't even respond to the crux of the argument.
    This is nothing but non-thinking blather, stem. I've demonstrated several times now WHY your response "doesn't hold water".


    Quote:
    Ya just can't have it both ways, Stemster, although you Mos ALWAYS try to have your cake (Mormo-god is OMNISCIENT) and eat it too (Mormo-god didn't know his spirit chil' Lucifer was gonna be evil).


    Silly strawmen will, seemingly, always be the hallmark of JD's apologetic. I have resigned myself to accepting that notion.
    Is that all you can do, stem? Offer more, worthless "nuhuh!" responses?


    Quote:
    LOL. And just how did I "misunderstand" you, stem? I understand you only too well. You're a product of Pavlovian conditioning which makes it somehow possible for you to hold to two mutually-exclusive truth claims simultaneously.

    You can't even begin to see your illogical thinking here.

    The explanations have already been laid before you, JD. Your tricky sounding rhetoric has been exposed again. Go back and re-read the argument, and perhaps you'll be able to address it head-on this time, instead of silly attempts to side-step followed by absurd conclusions about what I believe in some vain hope to bring my beliefs down the tubes with your own. Why you concede your beliefs belong down the tubes is somewhat valiant of ya, but to presuppose mine must follow yours is not proposing a sound argument.

    And it's been explained to you WHY your argument has NO MERIT, stem.

  20. #320
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Talk about ignoring, JD. You've been ignoring the arguments in favor of running to deflections such as SECONDARY CAUSES, along with silly attempts to bring down LDS belief with your own--tacitly conceding the errors in your own beliefs. If'n ya actually think about it, your beliefs are indeed weird, as Fig pointed out. Not enough thinking about it amongst you and your fellow mainstreamers, sadly. Dem brains weren't made for thinking is the apparent theme of mainstreamism.

    love,
    stem
    Do you even KNOW what "secondary causes" SIGNIFIES, stem?

    I don't think so...

  21. #321
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Do you even KNOW what "secondary causes" SIGNIFIES, stem?
    ---I think Stem knows what the term means. But as we have shown, the one deity in the universe who CAN'T cry "It's not my fault--secondary causes!" as an excuse, is the God of Tulipitarianism. "How so?" you ask? Well, you believe in a deity who is "the author of EVERYTHING," and who is also absolutely sovereign, literally omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (in all places and permeating all things). And, as we have shown, any deity who is all that, and whose act of ex-nihilo creating results in the horribly flawed, evil universe that you believe exists right now, is like the designer/***embler/programmer of the Hasbro Evil Robot. "How so?" you ask? Well, if Hasbro's chief toy engineer designs, programs, and ***embles a robot that is guaranteed to do evil once it's turned on, and then--surprise--the robot does exactly that, how lame would it be for the designer/***embler/programmer to say "Hey, I'm not PRIMARILY responsible for what MY CREATION did!" ???? VERY lame.

    "How so?" you ask? Well, the designer/***embler/programmer is the Number One Boss of the company--he has no boss over him (Sovereign), so what he says, happens. And he is also literally all-knowing, so he can't use "I didn't know that the robot was gonna do evil" as an excuse. And he is also literally omnipotent, so he can't use "I was unable to make a robot that WOULDN'T do evil" as an excuse. And he PREDESTINED his creation to do evil. That means he PLANNED on the robot doing evil once it was built and programmed by him. He could have chosen to create them WITHOUT that programmed evil-nature DNA, but He didn't WANT to (sovereign means no one can tell Him what to do or override His choices).


    Voila: The God of Tulipitarianism--Top Boss of everything, totally omniscient and sovereign, who predestines people to act the way they do and had all power to create them to be benevolent--but chose not to. How convincing is the excuse "It's not primarily my fault" in such a case? Not at all.

    Face it: The MEN who made up these doctrines and conned much of Christendom into believing they are true, BLEW IT. If they didn't KNOWINGLY make up this stuff as a deliberate attempt to portray God as the source of evil, then they made it up without thinking the whole scheme through to its logial conclusion. Take your pick: either they made up these doctrines on purpose, or through a lack of logical acumen. Either way, there's no good reason people should keep believing these doctrines are true and logical--not in a century when we should be sufficiently educated to make more logical decisions than people who lived in less enlightened, more supers***ious times.

  22. #322
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---I think Stem knows what the term means. But as we have shown, the one deity in the universe who CAN'T cry "It's not my fault--secondary causes!" as an excuse, is the God of Tulipitarianism. "How so?" you ask? Well, you believe in a deity who is "the author of EVERYTHING," and who is also absolutely sovereign, literally omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (in all places and permeating all things). And, as we have shown, any deity who is all that, and whose act of ex-nihilo creating results in the horribly flawed, evil universe that you believe exists right now, is like the designer/***embler/programmer of the Hasbro Evil Robot. "How so?" you ask? Well, if Hasbro's chief toy engineer designs, programs, and ***embles a robot that is guaranteed to do evil once it's turned on, and then--surprise--the robot does exactly that, how lame would it be for the designer/***embler/programmer to say "Hey, I'm not PRIMARILY responsible for what MY CREATION did!" ???? VERY lame.

    "How so?" you ask? Well, the designer/***embler/programmer is the Number One Boss of the company--he has no boss over him (Sovereign), so what he says, happens. And he is also literally all-knowing, so he can't use "I didn't know that the robot was gonna do evil" as an excuse. And he is also literally omnipotent, so he can't use "I was unable to make a robot that WOULDN'T do evil" as an excuse. And he PREDESTINED his creation to do evil. That means he PLANNED on the robot doing evil once it was built and programmed by him. He could have chosen to create them WITHOUT that programmed evil-nature DNA, but He didn't WANT to (sovereign means no one can tell Him what to do or override His choices).


    Voila: The God of Tulipitarianism--Top Boss of everything, totally omniscient and sovereign, who predestines people to act the way they do and had all power to create them to be benevolent--but chose not to. How convincing is the excuse "It's not primarily my fault" in such a case? Not at all.

    Face it: The MEN who made up these doctrines and conned much of Christendom into believing they are true, BLEW IT. If they didn't KNOWINGLY make up this stuff as a deliberate attempt to portray God as the source of evil, then they made it up without thinking the whole scheme through to its logial conclusion. Take your pick: either they made up these doctrines on purpose, or through a lack of logical acumen. Either way, there's no good reason people should keep believing these doctrines are true and logical--not in a century when we should be sufficiently educated to make more logical decisions than people who lived in less enlightened, more supers***ious times.
    Did Hasbro give their robot, their creation, free will? Or was it set up to operate in very limited parameters? Is this how God created man? Did he create Him evil or did He give Him a perfect existence a perfect life of total communion with Him only to know that the freedom He gave would be used to make himself corrupt? How did Hasbro's robot do that? There is no doubt God knew what man would do. This is why God prepared man's salvation before the foundation of the world. Saying that God was surprised by man's actions is limiting the power and scope of God's knowledge and authority over all things, Yes Even Time.. So man isn't at all like the creation that man can contrive. Nothing man creates has the freedom that God has given mankind. Yes God could have made us the way you seem to have wanted Him to, but if that were the case there would be no real love exchanged. Yes He could have made us repeat "I LOVE GOD, I LOVE GOD" over and over like a babydoll saying Momma ever time it is moved, but is the little Girl who plays with that doll really it's Momma or would a robot of God's design really love God? NO!!!

    No where in the Bible does it say that God predestined anyone to be evil, but instead only for salvation. Sin corrupted the perfect nature God created in man. Sin and therefore death that man chose instead of Joy and life with Him. That was part of the choice God had created in us. A creation that allows us to respond to God as our King, our Lord, our God, and our FATHER. Without being able to make that choice we would remain as children of the devil..

    I have personally shown you from scripture how each point of TULIP fits into the Scripture. All you have done is to make up words like "Tulipitarianism" You have made it up so only you can make up it's meaning. But since you made it up it will be like so many terms mormonism uses to poke fun at Christianity the meaning will turn and twist to meet your attacks against the Jesus of the Bible and His works on man's behalf.. IHS jim

  23. #323
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Did Hasbro give their robot, their creation, free will?
    ---Hasbro programmed the robot so that it was GUARANTEED to do evil. Something called a "sin nature" was installed into its DNA. Sound familiar? Yep, that's what Calvinists teach that GOD did to the human race. Or are you claiming that YOU were NOT born with a sin nature--a nature that would guarantee that you were a born sinner? A nature that would make it IMPOSSIBLE for you to NOT do evil?

  24. #324
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    No where in the Bible does it say that God predestined anyone to be evil, but instead only for salvation.
    ---You're saying that God predestined everyone for salvation? What about your Carm friends who claim that the Bible teaches that God CREATED some people to be vessels for destruction? And that David said he was born in iniquity, a sinner right from the womb? Are you saying your Carm friends, and FJD and Libby are wrong? That they believe non-Christian doctrines?

    Sin corrupted the perfect nature God created in man
    ---You are a man, correct? God created you, correct? Are you saying that God created you with a perfect nature?


    I have personally shown you from scripture how each point of TULIP fits into the Scripture.
    --What you have said--that we were created with the ability to choose our own destiny, that it wasn't predestinated before the world was created, that we were made with a perfect nature--all that CONTRADICTS TULIP.

  25. #325
    akaSeerone
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    You are twisting things again and it proves the you do not know your Bible and you have no idea what you are talking about.

    God created Adam and Eve perfect.

    Adam sinned and creation took on the fallen nature.

    If God chooses to use some of the fallen men one way and some another, who are you to question and mock God?

    Once again Jeff, you are lying and twisting what has been told to you and then trying to throw it back and use it against James.

    I hope Jill permanently bans the likes of you.

    Andy

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