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Thread: Is God unable to create in kind?

  1. #326
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Hasbro programmed the robot so that it was GUARANTEED to do evil. Something called a "sin nature" was installed into its DNA. Sound familiar? Yep, that's what Calvinists teach that GOD did to the human race. Or are you claiming that YOU were NOT born with a sin nature--a nature that would guarantee that you were a born sinner? A nature that would make it IMPOSSIBLE for you to NOT do evil?
    The sin nature came about though the actions of the creation not the creator. Your robot had the evil placed in him by the manufacture (creator). Your example is still flawed..

    Please try to understand, God created man totally pure. It was because man rebelied against Him by an act of their own will that he became evil. God didn't create man evil!!! IHS jim

  2. #327
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    OK, when you said this:



    Do you see what is misrepresentation about this?
    No Mormonism teaches that God created our spirits and placed them into. First the spirit then the physical body later.. The Bible says (Very clearly) that God Created the spirit of man within him (Zech 12:1) By saying that Mormonism is teaching other than that it is NOT a misrepresentation unless you want to tell me that God didn't create the the spirit of man in a pre-existence.. I am willing to talk about this teaching if you an tell me something new that I am not aware of.. But if the mormon god created the spirits of man before there was a body to created it in I am solid in my statements. IHS jim

  3. #328
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    You didn't address my specific questions again, James. Please try again.

    love,
    stem
    I believe I have, Sorry you can't seem to understand the answer. Go read it again... IHS jim

  4. #329
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---You're saying that God predestined everyone for salvation? What about your Carm friends who claim that the Bible teaches that God CREATED some people to be vessels for destruction? And that David said he was born in iniquity, a sinner right from the womb? Are you saying your Carm friends, and FJD and Libby are wrong? That they believe non-Christian doctrines?


    ---You are a man, correct? God created you, correct? Are you saying that God created you with a perfect nature?



    --What you have said--that we were created with the ability to choose our own destiny, that it wasn't predestinated before the world was created, that we were made with a perfect nature--all that CONTRADICTS TULIP.
    Listen it's because we are predestined to salvation not to wrath. This is what I find as I look into predestined:

    Rom 8:29-30
    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Moreover whom he did predestined, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Eph 1:5,11
    Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will


    Not one mention of being predestined to wrath.. That is what I meant not that all were predestined to life.. Just that no one is predestined to wrath. IHS jim

  5. #330
    akaSeerone
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    You continue to twist what the Bible says so you can mock God and the Bible and then try to use what you have twisted against us Jeff....you should be permanently banned for continuing to do that.

    God Created Adam and Eve.

    The rest of mankind was born evil. Out of those God choose some to be vessels of wrath for His Glory and some were chosen to serve Him. The rest just remain in the sin nature because of Adam's sin.

    So quit with your mocking God and judging Him.

    What mormons have is idol worship because they created the God they worship and that is without argument idol worship.

    You are setting yourself up for a great fall by judging God.

    Andy

  6. #331
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    The sin nature came about though the actions of the creation not the creator.
    ---So you believe that mere humans have the power to change the nature that God created into them? What about the doctrine of God's Sovereignty, which teaches that NO ONE can undermine God's will, and therefore if a person does evil, it's because God WANTED them to be evil (Predestination)?

    Your robot had the evil placed in him by the manufacture (creator). Your example is still flawed..
    ---Who placed evil in the Garden of Eden? Satan's manufacturer, right?

    Please try to understand, God created man totally pure.
    ---Did God create YOU totally pure? If you say yes, you're agreeing with LDS doctrine. If you say no, then you believe that God only created 0.0000000001% of the human race totally pure--the rest He created like you, with a nature that guarantees that you can't do anything good. That's what Calvinism teaches.

    It was because man rebelied against Him by an act of their own will that he became evil. God didn't create man evil!!!
    ---So you believe that God didn't create YOU evil? You believe that God created YOU good but your rebellion against Him caused you to BECOME evil?

  7. #332
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Listen it's because we are predestined to salvation not to wrath.
    ----So you believe that God has predestinated all people to be saved? That is an interesting idea, one that I think your Carm friends will have "issues" over. Besides, I thought you said you believe that God gave everyone free will, the freedom to choose. If He predestinated us all to be saved, how can we have any choice in whether we are saved or not?

    Not one mention of being predestined to wrath.. That is what I meant not that all were predestined to life.. Just that no one is predestined to wrath.
    ---But you said "we are predestined to salvation not to wrath." Now you're saying the opposite--that NOT all of us are predestined to "life" which I presume you equate with salvation. As for "no one is predestined to wrath" I guess you haven't paid attention to your Calvinistic Carm friends when they claimed that the CHRISTIAN doctrine is that God, in His sovereignty, MADE some of us to be nothing BUT vessels fated for wrath. They cite the Bible parable about the pot maker (not the marijuana kind) who intended SOME of his pots to be lasting things of treasured beauty, but who intended OTHER pots--even before he MADE them--to be "mistakes" that were destined to be shattered. It's in Father JD's favorite part of the Bible, Romans 9:

    20 The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

    21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

    22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

    23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

  8. #333
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    You continue to twist what the Bible says so you can mock God and the Bible
    ---Where have I done any of that?

    God Created Adam and Eve.
    --That's the first true thing I have seen you say in a while. Congrats!

    The rest of mankind was born evil.
    ---Oh-oh, Paging Jim Banta: Andy has "issues" with your beliefs.

    Out of those God choose some to be vessels of wrath for His Glory and some were chosen to serve Him.
    ---I wonder which of those 2 castes you fall into.

    The rest just remain in the sin nature because of Adam's sin
    --So you believe there are THREE possible fates for a human being--Predestinated for wrath, predestinated to serve God, and predestinated to remain in the sin nature? Doesn't that throw them in with "predestinated for wrath" folks?

    So quit with your mocking God and judging Him.
    ---I am just judging the reasonableness of your beliefs. Unless you are God, I am not judging God.

  9. #334
    Father_JD
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    jeff...how many times do I need to correct your twisted understanding of "Calvinistic" i.e. biblical teaching?

    Once again, jeff, just for YOU:

    1. God did NOT create evil beings.
    2. He declared ALL to have been created "good".
    3. God DID foreknow the future corruption of his creation, i.e. Lucifer, et al.
    4. ALL evil, etc. has been perpetuated by these beings, HENCE THEY ARE SECONDARY CAUSES
    4. Since God KNEW this, then one asks WHY.
    5. The biblical answer is "according to his own pleasure", i.e. designs, purposes.
    6. You've consistently affirmed that the Mormo-diet is NOT:

    a. Omnisicient
    b. Omnipotent
    c. Sovereign

    You may believe what you want, but remember that Mormo-god is NOT THE OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT AND SOVEREIGN GOD OF THE BIBLE.

  10. #335
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    do you know what you're talking about? My argument does not rest on whether anyone knows evil will be practiced. It rests on your concept of God, by logical extension, being the sole source of evil since He obviously had to be the first one ever to conceive of the concept.

    love,
    stem
    And knowing that evil could or will take place makes the God who created ALL things evil, right? IHS jim

  11. #336
    nrajeff
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    [QUOTE=Father_JD;52164]jeff...how many times do I need to correct your twisted understanding of "Calvinistic" i.e. biblical teaching?
    ---So "Calvinism" equals "Biblical" now? What does "Arminianism" equal, then? Satanic? This could be a fun debate.

    Once again, jeff, just for YOU:
    ---Maybe one of these times I will see the light. Not THIS time, though.


    1. God did NOT create evil beings.
    --Did God create YOU?
    a) yes
    b) no

    Were you a sinner right from the womb, as Calvinism teaches?
    a) yes
    b) no


    2. He declared ALL to have been created "good".
    --I thought He declared "There are NONE good except for God."

  12. #337
    Father_JD
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    FJD: jeff...how many times do I need to correct your twisted understanding of "Calvinistic" i.e. biblical teaching?


    ---So "Calvinism" equals "Biblical" now? What does "Arminianism" equal, then? Satanic? This could be a fun debate.
    So-called "Arminianism" is in error, that's for sure. Error does not necessarily mean "Satanic", jeff.


    Quote:
    Once again, jeff, just for YOU:

    ---Maybe one of these times I will see the light. Not THIS time, though.
    It's up to you, dude.



    Quote:
    1. God did NOT create evil beings.

    --Did God create YOU?
    a) yes
    b) no

    I'm refererencing BEFORE the Fall, jeff. And NO, God did NOT directly create me. Only Adam and Eve were "created by God", i.e. directly.


    Were you a sinner right from the womb, as Calvinism teaches?
    a) yes
    b) no

    The Bible teaches we are BORN IN SIN. We have the sin nature, and BECAUSE we possess the sin nature, we WILL sin.


    Quote:
    2. He declared ALL to have been created "good".

    --I thought He declared "There are NONE good except for God."

    Again, I'm referring to ORIGINAL CREATION BEFORE SIN ENTERED THE COSMOS. No one is "good" in our NATURAL, FALLEN STATE, jeff.

    Did you purposely equivocate my remarks??

  13. #338
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    FJD: jeff...how many times do I need to correct your twisted understanding of "Calvinistic" i.e. biblical teaching?
    ---Until it ceases to be fun bantering with you.

    So-called "Arminianism" is in error, that's for sure. Error does not necessarily mean "Satanic", jeff.
    ---But if it is contra-Biblical, how can Arminianism NOT be "another gospel," which therefore teaches "another Jesus," which is therefore "non-Christian"? Come on, stand up to those anti-Bible Arminians who dare to call themselves Christians! Let's start a T.E.A. party to oppose them! (Trash Everything Arminian)

    I'm refererencing BEFORE the Fall, jeff.
    --Ah, so you believe that God was only able to create non-evil things BEFORE that dang Fall ruined His abilities? What happened to omnipotence?

    And NO, God did NOT directly create me. Only Adam and Eve were "created by God", i.e. directly.
    --Ah, yes, God is now merely a "secondary creator." So you believe that after the 6th day of creation, God said "That's it, I'm done creating, let someone else take over the *** from here on out, and good luck to them, whoever they are."


    The Bible teaches we are BORN IN SIN.
    ---But not created in sin, you say. How can you be born without being created? Sounds like a case of anti-equivocation: Creating an imaginary difference between two words that are actually synonymous. Hey, you are a creator--you created a fallacious argument! (But just a secondary creator, right? )


    We have the sin nature, and BECAUSE we possess the sin nature, we WILL sin.
    ---So if God --"the father of spirits," according to the Bible--didn't create your spirit, then who did? Did Mr. and Mrs. FJD Sr. really have the power to create spirits? I thought it was supposed to be the MORMONS who ascribe superhuman powers to mere mortals. Or is it "only a deity can create spirits" that those pesky Mormons believe?

    Again, I'm referring to ORIGINAL CREATION BEFORE SIN ENTERED THE COSMOS.
    --Interesting statement. So you believe that sin entered our cosmos from some...other...cosmos? Who let it in? Why didn't they put up some cherubim with light sabers to keep this sin from entering our cosmos? Seems like our cosmos was a pretty utopian place, until sin entered from the "sin cosmos" and nobody tried to stop it. Look what a disaster our cosmos has turned into, and it could have been prevented, if only our cosmos had not been invaded by "The sin from another cosmos." Wasn't that the ***le of an old, black-and-white sci-fi movie?

    No one is "good" in our NATURAL, FALLEN STATE, jeff.
    ---Not even Mother Teresa? It's hard for me to make myself say out loud "Mother Teresa was not good." Maybe it's easier for you to form the words. How about the men who infallibly, inerrantly wrote each book that's now in the official (non-Catholic) Bible? Not good men? Again, it's hard for me to make myself say "The Bible was written by evil men." It just doesn't seem right to me. How much "training" (conditioning) did you have to undergo, before "The Bible was written by evil men" was easy for you to say? Isn't that a symptom of a cult mentalilty---being conditioned to say incorrect things until the subject genuinely believes he is saying something that is true?
    Did you purposely equivocate my remarks??
    ---Why--am I good at it? (Remember there are none that are good....)

  14. #339
    Father_JD
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    Originally Posted by Father_JD
    FJD: jeff...how many times do I need to correct your twisted understanding of "Calvinistic" i.e. biblical teaching?

    ---Until it ceases to be fun bantering with you.
    So, it MUST be fun correcting you, jeff.


    Quote:
    So-called "Arminianism" is in error, that's for sure. Error does not necessarily mean "Satanic", jeff.


    ---But if it is contra-Biblical, how can Arminianism NOT be "another gospel," which therefore teaches "another Jesus," which is therefore "non-Christian"? Come on, stand up to those anti-Bible Arminians who dare to call themselves Christians! Let's start a T.E.A. party to oppose them! (Trash Everything Arminian)

    Arminians believe in sola gratia, sola fide. THAT is the gospel, jeff. You on the other hand, don't believe the biblical gospel.


    Quote:
    I'm refererencing BEFORE the Fall, jeff.

    --Ah, so you believe that God was only able to create non-evil things BEFORE that dang Fall ruined His abilities? What happened to omnipotence?
    God has ONLY created "good" creation. The Fall changed all that, jeff. Isn't Mormo-god "omnipotent"? Or is it he couldn't do a thing?


    Quote:
    And NO, God did NOT directly create me. Only Adam and Eve were "created by God", i.e. directly.


    --Ah, yes, God is now merely a "secondary creator." So you believe that after the 6th day of creation, God said "That's it, I'm done creating, let someone else take over the *** from here on out, and good luck to them, whoever they are."
    Right. God CEASED His creation on the 6th day. NOW He SUSTAINS His creation.



    Quote:
    The Bible teaches we are BORN IN SIN.

    ---But not created in sin, you say. How can you be born without being created? Sounds like a case of anti-equivocation: Creating an imaginary difference between two words that are actually synonymous. Hey, you are a creator--you created a fallacious argument! (But just a secondary creator, right? )
    Only Adam and Eve were CREATED directly by God...and NOT PRO-created as Mormons believe!!!



    Quote:
    We have the sin nature, and BECAUSE we possess the sin nature, we WILL sin.

    ---So if God --"the father of spirits," according to the Bible--didn't create your spirit, then who did? Did Mr. and Mrs. FJD Sr. really have the power to create spirits? I thought it was supposed to be the MORMONS who ascribe superhuman powers to mere mortals. Or is it "only a deity can create spirits" that those pesky Mormons believe?
    I didn't say He didn't "create" my spirit...but the question that the bible does NOT answer is how the "spirit" comes about in the human body. Primary creation or secondary creation...we don't KNOW, but God "created" us one way or another.


    Quote:
    Again, I'm referring to ORIGINAL CREATION BEFORE SIN ENTERED THE COSMOS.

    --Interesting statement. So you believe that sin entered our cosmos from some...other...cosmos? Who let it in? Why didn't they put up some cherubim with light sabers to keep this sin from entering our cosmos? Seems like our cosmos was a pretty utopian place, until sin entered from the "sin cosmos" and nobody tried to stop it. Look what a disaster our cosmos has turned into, and it could have been prevented, if only our cosmos had not been invaded by "The sin from another cosmos." Wasn't that the ***le of an old, black-and-white sci-fi movie?

    Meaning, sin didn't exist in this one and only "universe", jeff. Ultimately, the answer lies with God Himself as to why He permitted sin/evil to come about.


    Quote:
    No one is "good" in our NATURAL, FALLEN STATE, jeff.

    ---Not even Mother Teresa?...

    Are you declaring Mother Teresa has NEVER having been REGENERATED or "born again"?? Do you really believe that Mother Teresa NEVER sinned, either before regeneration or ***uming she was, afterwards?




    ...It's hard for me to make myself say out loud "Mother Teresa was not good." Maybe it's easier for you to form the words. How about the men who infallibly, inerrantly wrote each book that's now in the official (non-Catholic) Bible? Not good men? Again, it's hard for me to make myself say "The Bible was written by evil men." It just doesn't seem right to me. How much "training" (conditioning) did you have to undergo, before "The Bible was written by evil men" was easy for you to say? Isn't that a symptom of a cult mentalilty---being conditioned to say incorrect things until the subject genuinely believes he is saying something that is true?

    You judge others by men's standards, jeff...and definitely NOT God's.

    Quote:
    Did you purposely equivocate my remarks??


    ---Why--am I good at it? (Remember there are none that are good....)
    Yeah. You're good at doing BAD things ( like equivocation), jeff.

  15. #340
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    All of God's creations (speaking of living creations) are a testimony of life producing life after its kind. That life begets life, in kind.

    Is the God of orthodoxy unable to do this himself?
    ...yes....god , the only being beyond time, is unable to make another god that would also be beyond time.......there is only one......the moment you think something that called itself 'god' is said to have reproduced you know you are dealing with a false god

  16. #341
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    All of God's creations (speaking of living creations) are a testimony of life producing life after its kind. That life begets life, in kind.

    Is the God of orthodoxy unable to do this himself?
    yes, you can not make a "new" eternal non-made, non-created, from everlasting to everlasting God"

  17. #342
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    yes, you can not make a "new" eternal non-made, non-created, from everlasting to everlasting God"
    If God puts limits on Himself that He would not allow a being like Him to exist before Him, and have the same restriction about one being allowed to be formed after Him then it is impossible because what God says, He will do. He gives no excuses for the operation of His will.. IHS jim

  18. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    No. God does that through the biological process He created.

    I'm just saying, it's not logical that an "uncreated" being could be created. God has no beginning or end, so He was not created...He has always existed. How could, even HE, "create" something that has always existed?
    Interesting thought Libby, as I am sure you are aware that LDS believe that our natures (intelligences) are not created, but always were. In this way, our nature to sin was not created by God---but always was.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  19. #344
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Interesting thought Libby, as I am sure you are aware that LDS believe that our natures (intelligences) are not created, but always were. In this way, our nature to sin was not created by God---but always was.
    Interesting. I never really understood the "nature" of "intelligences". I know some were supposed to be "brighter" or above the others, in some way (like Christ)...but, never really grasped the concept very well.

  20. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Interesting. I never really understood the "nature" of "intelligences". I know some were supposed to be "brighter" or above the others, in some way (like Christ)...but, never really grasped the concept very well.
    It is the part of us that is eternal. As is described in the book of Abraham, while there are some that are "brighter" than others, God's is brighter then all.

    The way I explain this to non-members is the concept that God is eternal and everlasting without beginning and without end. As such, there is no beginning and no end. I believe when the Bible reads "in the beginning"---it is speaking of the beginning of time as measured here on earth. So, if God is eternal, then we are eternal to God...or at least, some part of us is eternal to God. To me, that is our intelligence--the basis of who we are.

    Because of this, God does not cause sin. He did not create sin. Sin was not created because of the absence of good--because even in that absence, something would have to have some basis to do evil---to make the choice to turn away from God. If God created our nature, then he created this "sin" within us, so to speak. Yet, he did not do that. Instead, he gave us power to act on our own natures. The fall did not create our natures---the fall was because of our natures.

    God explains to us that His nature is brighter than all of us. He understands that our natures will keep us from experiencing what He experiences. So, he set a plan in motion that would allow us to both discover our natures and to overcome our natures---through Jesus Christ. Through Jesus Christ, we have the freedom to see who we really are.

    Then, once we realize we fall short of the glory of God, he provided a way for our nature to be purified----through love, through the atonement. Once we choose this, total submission, he can sanctify us and purify us so that we can be like Him. In this way, we can experience the total joy, peace, and happiness that He experiences because of His perfect ability to love.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  21. #346
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    . . .LDS believe that our natures (intelligences) are not created, but always were. . .
    Mormonism
    1. Intelligences were not created by God but rather have co-existed-- in some form--for eternity past
    2. Intelligences are somehow taken and packaged into a spirit body which was begotten and born to heavenly parents in a pre earth life
    3. The gods in Genesis 1 formed man in the image of the many gods.

    One major issue--which I have tried to get you to elaborate more fully--is in Genesis 1. You said that the "US" are gods such as Jesus and other gods. Can you tell me who are these other gods that you are speaking about? And what does it mean when it speaks of all of these gods creating man after OUR image?

  22. #347
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    It is the part of us that is eternal. As is described in the book of Abraham, while there are some that are "brighter" than others, God's is brighter then all.

    The way I explain this to non-members is the concept that God is eternal and everlasting without beginning and without end. As such, there is no beginning and no end. I believe when the Bible reads "in the beginning"---it is speaking of the beginning of time as measured here on earth. So, if God is eternal, then we are eternal to God...or at least, some part of us is eternal to God. To me, that is our intelligence--the basis of who we are.

    Because of this, God does not cause sin. He did not create sin. Sin was not created because of the absence of good--because even in that absence, something would have to have some basis to do evil---to make the choice to turn away from God. If God created our nature, then he created this "sin" within us, so to speak. Yet, he did not do that. Instead, he gave us power to act on our own natures. The fall did not create our natures---the fall was because of our natures.

    God explains to us that His nature is brighter than all of us. He understands that our natures will keep us from experiencing what He experiences. So, he set a plan in motion that would allow us to both discover our natures and to overcome our natures---through Jesus Christ. Through Jesus Christ, we have the freedom to see who we really are.

    Then, once we realize we fall short of the glory of God, he provided a way for our nature to be purified----through love, through the atonement. Once we choose this, total submission, he can sanctify us and purify us so that we can be like Him. In this way, we can experience the total joy, peace, and happiness that He experiences because of His perfect ability to love.
    So, God's creation in the Garden story is just about creating physical bodies...not the creation of the souls that enter these bodies. Yes, I actually do remember this.

    I just hadn't thought about the "sin" aspect of it.

  23. #348
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    So, God's creation in the Garden story is just about creating physical bodies...not the creation of the souls that enter these bodies. Yes, I actually do remember this.
    Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

    A big problem that BigJ has with this concept (from the mormon perspective) is that in Genesis 1 it states "Let US" made man in "OUR image" after "OUR likeness". When I ask her about who exactly are these gods that created man's physical body she stated that Jesus was one of these gods that was spoken about along with other gods. She would not tell me who these other gods were but I can only ***ume from prior discussions that these other gods are other spirit children. Since it says "LET US" make man this means that these other gods were involved in the creation of physical bodies. But none of these other gods had physical bodes so "OUR image" and "OUR likeness" could not be a physical body since spirit children did not have physical bodies yet. I would like to hear what BigJ has to say about this.

  24. #349
    Libby
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    Billy, did you ever take out your endowments in the Temple? If you did, you should know what Julie is talking about, in regards to "other gods".

  25. #350
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Billy, did you ever take out your endowments in the Temple? If you did, you should know what Julie is talking about, in regards to "other gods".
    I did go through the temple a long time ago just prior to my lds mission.

    But what you have said does nothing to help her predicament with respect to the p***age in Genesis 1. So I am not sure how you think that it does. Perhaps you could elaborate a little bit for me. BTW your are not sharing any secrets about the temple ceremony because a word for word transcription is available for anyone to view on the web.

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