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Thread: Is God unable to create in kind?

  1. #26
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    That would mean that God created creatures that CAN do what He CANNOT do.
    So when a scientist genetically modifies corn to create a new species but cannot bear corn ears himself, the scientist is lesser than the creation?

    MacG
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  2. #27
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    So when a scientist genetically modifies corn to create a new species but cannot bear corn ears himself, the scientist is lesser than the creation?

    MacG
    No, it just means the scientist can't beget out of kind. He might be able to create a new type of corn, that is actually steril, but he is not 'begetting' it. Nor would I say that God begets corn, as corn is not his kind.

    My question was about begetting in kind.

  3. #28
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    My question was about begetting in kind.
    Oh. Perhaps you haven't seen this before:

    IS 46:9 For I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is no one like Me,

    Ripped from Answers.com:
    Like:
    prep.

    1. Possessing the characteristics of; resembling closely; similar to.

    adj.

    1. Possessing the same or almost the same characteristics; similar: on this and like occasions.
    2. Alike: They are as like as two siblings.
    3. Having equivalent value or quality. Usually used in negative sentences: There's nothing like a good night's sleep.

    n.

    1. One similar to or like another. Used with the: was subject to coughs, asthma, and the like.
    2. Informal. An equivalent or similar person or thing; an equal or match. Often used in the plural: I've never seen the likes of this before. We'll never see his like again.

    If He can, He hasn't and apparently does not intend to:

    "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

    MacG
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  4. #29
    aaronshaf
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    The short answer is "yes" to the original question.

    But the answer is "yes" in Mormonism as well. In Mormonism, God does not really create after his own kind. In fact, his own kind are beings that are co-eternal and self-existent. Our particular God didn't given them their existence, and at spirit birth (if you affirm the traditional view of viviparous spirit-birth) he doesn't technically "make them after his own kind"; he merely clothes an existing co-eternal self-existent being already of the same fundamental species with a spirit-body.

    Put more succinctly, the Mormon God doesn't have the ability to create beings of the same species. He only has the ability to clothe co-eternal beings of the same species with different kinds of bodies.
    What I said here applies equally to the idea of begetting. The Mormon God can neither create nor beget after his own kind. The fundamental species of being is already there. The co-eternal beings are already there. The Mormon God doesn't beget their very being. He merely gives them a spirit body. His "begetting" is not of a being after his own kind, but of a body after his own kind.

    So criticism against Christianity for not having a God that can create or beget after his own kind is self-defeating.

    In Mormonism, ALL persons are self-existent and co-eternal. Technically, NONE are created or begotten. Their key stages of development are really marked by the addition of bodies, not by the begetting or creation of their species or being.

  5. #30
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    What I said here applies equally to the idea of begetting. The Mormon God can neither create nor beget after his own kind. The fundamental species of being is already there. The co-eternal beings are already there. The Mormon God doesn't beget their very being. He merely gives them a spirit body. His "begetting" is not of a being after his own kind, but of a body after his own kind.

    So criticism against Christianity for not having a God that can create or beget after his own kind is self-defeating.

    In Mormonism, ALL persons are self-existent and co-eternal. Technically, NONE are created or begotten. Their key stages of development are really marked by the addition of bodies, not by the begetting or creation of their species or being.
    Yes, that's a very good point, Aaron.

  6. #31
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Let's see these "many" times where God CLEARLY stated that He is unable to have children except through adoption.
    I don't think He is saying that. I'm just telling you that he makes it clear that WE are not his "biological" children.


    ---If you can do something good that He CAN'T, then "He is deficient" is the ONLY presumption available. [/QUOTE]

    No, not at all. And we really had nothing to do with the pro-creative process, so in a real sense that was from God. He is the Creator of our spirits and He was the Creator of all biological processes.

  7. #32
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    I'm just saying that your information wasn't quite right. If you would like to be corrected, all you need do is ask...politely.
    I am saying that being corrected by someone who looks to a man like Joseph Smith as being a prophet of God has nothing to teach anyone.. My doctrine is correct being Biblical. Just by saying that it isn't shows that you are so far from God's truth that you have much more to learn than you have to teach.. IHS jim

  8. #33
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    John 1:1-2
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The same was in the beginning with God.

    That seems to answer your question.. Jesus was with God and Jesus is God.. There was never a time when the Father "conjured up the idea that He needed a Jesus (man/God) to save mankind". God was always there and always knew what He was doing the whole time.. IHS jim
    Your ***umptions that you have read into John address my question a little but not wholly. The p***age does not come close to answering my question as it is. So are you saying that there never was a time when Jesus' person was not? Was there a point when God was but one person?

    love,
    stem

  9. #34
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I don't think He is saying that. I'm just telling you that he makes it clear that WE are not his "biological" children.
    --Does that include Jesus---Jesus is only the ADOPTED Son of God? 'Cause most Bibles I have consulted are "deficient" as far as the word 'adopted' is concerned there. Remember, the issue is whether or not God has the ABILITY to father children of His own kind or nature or substance or species or whatever word is P.C. these days.

    ---If you can do something good that He CAN'T, then "He is deficient" is the ONLY presumption available. [/QUOTE]
    No, not at all.
    ---So you are on record as stating that you believe that God creates beings who are able to do good things that God Himself is unable to do? How does that NOT "degrade" God? How does it NOT validate Joseph Smith's famous "boast"?


    And we really had nothing to do with the pro-creative process
    ----My wife and I had NOTHING to do with bringing our kids into this world? I don't think my wife would agree with that.

    so in a real sense that was from God. He is the Creator of our spirits and He was the Creator of all biological processes
    ---Yes, ultimately, indirectly, everything we do could be equivocated into being God's doing, but that forces you to include all the BAD things we and Satan do. Try to be a little more Arminian--it's good for you!

  10. #35
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    Oh. Perhaps you haven't seen this before:

    IS 46:9 For I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is no one like Me,
    I've read that before. It makes a good cross reference to Exodus 8:8-10 which says:

    8 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, Intreat the Lord, that he may take away the frogs from me, and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may do sacrifice unto the Lord.
    9 And Moses said unto Pharaoh, Glory over me: when shall I intreat for thee, and for thy servants, and for thy people, to destroy the frogs from thee and thy houses, that they may remain in the river only?
    10 And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the Lord our God.

    Plus these cross references.

    In each of these cases, the context is either
    1) That idols and gods of the heathen are not to be compared with the living God of Israel.

    OR

    2) That there is only One God and One Savior with which mankind has anything to do.

    Both of these, I agree with.

  11. #36
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    I am saying that being corrected by someone who looks to a man like Joseph Smith as being a prophet of God has nothing to teach anyone.. My doctrine is correct being Biblical. Just by saying that it isn't shows that you are so far from God's truth that you have much more to learn than you have to teach.. IHS jim
    So your representation of LDS beliefs was not correct, and you don't want to be corrected? OK, Got it.

  12. #37
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    What I said here applies equally to the idea of begetting. The Mormon God can neither create nor beget after his own kind. The fundamental species of being is already there. The co-eternal beings are already there. The Mormon God doesn't beget their very being. He merely gives them a spirit body. His "begetting" is not of a being after his own kind, but of a body after his own kind.

    So criticism against Christianity for not having a God that can create or beget after his own kind is self-defeating.

    In Mormonism, ALL persons are self-existent and co-eternal. Technically, NONE are created or begotten. Their key stages of development are really marked by the addition of bodies, not by the begetting or creation of their species or being.
    Ahh, now you had to bring "creation ex-nihilo" into the mix.

    For LDS, neither creating nor begetting means "conjuring up from nothing".

    LDS believe life begets in kind. It is God who places the intelligence into a spirit body, or who places the spirit into a physical body.

  13. #38
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    So your representation of LDS beliefs was not correct, and you don't want to be corrected? OK, Got it.
    Since there are just about as many views of what mormonism is as there are mormons I an not surprised that you think I am wrong.. I guess when I was among you I had a different view of what the doctrine was.. Now if I have to beg you to share your view I am not interested.. I will just see you as one more mormon that believes they can pick and choose the commandments they want to keep.. As I read the Great Commission I see that I am called to tell the whole world about my faith..
    Matthew 28:19-20
    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    That is my interpretation of the p***age I don't know or understand how you could get anything else out of it.. IHS jim

  14. #39
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Since there are just about as many views of what mormonism is as there are mormons I an not surprised that you think I am wrong.. I guess when I was among you I had a different view of what the doctrine was.. Now if I have to beg you to share your view I am not interested...
    Well, I suppose that sometimes maintaining one's ignorance is the best comfort he can find.

  15. #40
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Well, I suppose that sometimes maintaining one's ignorance is the best comfort he can find.
    So that's what you are doing... I challenged my belief in mormonism and that challenge lead me to truth.. You have not even looked into the the if the teachings of Joseph Smith were true or where his later teachings came from.. You haven't worked out how God being Spirit can be true when Smith said that God isn't a spirit but a person of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22).. Or why a Book translated by the power of God had to undergo over 3,000 changes to get it right.. Or how David and Solomon could be an abomination in Jacob 2 of the BofM and justified in the 132 section of the D&C.. Why is the Bible so completely adamant that salvation is by God's grace through faith (John 3:15-16, Eph 2:8-9) and yet Joseph Smith have built in works that are the requirements (water baptism, laying on of hands, priesthoods, and temple endowment) for everlasting life?

    Yes It looks as though I just gave up real truth and ran into error doesn't? NOT.. I actually look deep into the error and begged Jesus to forgive me and make me His child (John 1:12).. IHS jim

  16. #41
    Father_JD
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    Is the deity you believe in able to give lower beings the same abilities (knowledge, immortality, etc.) that the deity has?
    Jeff. Please look up "communicable attributes" as well as "incommunicable attributes" regarding the God of the Bible.

  17. #42
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Jeff. Please look up "communicable attributes" as well as "incommunicable attributes" regarding the God of the Bible.
    --- "Communicable attributes"--is that something the Centers for Disease Control study?

    Why can't you just answer my question about what you "feel" God is UNABLE to do?

    1. Is He really UNABLE to have children--is He doomed to only be a parent by ADOPTION? Y/N

    2. Is He really UNABLE to share with (or teach to) anyone He deems it appropriate, His wisdom, knowledge, love, and immortality? Y/N

    That's all you need to do, FJD....all you need to, that is, in order to show what a fraud your theology is.

  18. #43
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post

    2) That there is only One God and One Savior with which mankind has anything to do.
    This is superfluous because there is only One God - period. See:

    IS 46:9 For I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is no one like Me..."

    "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

    Blessings,

    MacG
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  19. #44
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --Does that include Jesus---Jesus is only the ADOPTED Son of God?.
    Is this a serious question? Jesus was/is God. His Spirit was not created or begotten. You also need to take note that he was the ONLY begotten Son of God (and that does not mean begotten in the same way you and I were). The rest of His children are adopted, and, originally, inherited a very different nature, from their father, Adam.

    ---If you can do something good that He CAN'T, then "He is deficient" is the ONLY presumption available.
    I disagree. God is not deficient in any way. Actually, there are none "good" BUT Him. Another little something in the Bible that is often forgotten.

    ---So you are on record as stating that you believe that God creates beings who are able to do good things that God Himself is unable to do? How does that NOT "degrade" God? How does it NOT validate Joseph Smith's famous "boast"?
    As I said, all good things come from God, including the ability to pro-create. God has given man many good things. The fact that He is above the need for some of it, certainly doesn't make Him less. You are looking at God from your own human perspective, Jeff. He is very different from us in many ways (also biblical - His ways are not our ways).

    ----My wife and I had NOTHING to do with bringing our kids into this world? I don't think my wife would agree with that.
    Well, I would have to agree with her, in some respects, as I bore three children of my own. But, you are overstepping my point (you do that a lot), which is...without God we are nothing/non-existent.. and we have nothing, to which He cannot lay claim.


    ---Yes, ultimately, indirectly, everything we do could be equivocated into being God's doing, but that forces you to include all the BAD things we and Satan do. Try to be a little more Arminian--it's good for you!
    What is good for me (and for you) is the truth.
    Last edited by Libby; 02-11-2010 at 03:42 AM.

  20. #45
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    This is superfluous because there is only One God - period. See:

    IS 46:9 For I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is no one like Me..."

    "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

    Blessings,

    MacG
    In each of these cases, the context is either
    1) That idols and gods of the heathen are not to be compared with the living God of Israel.

    OR

    2) That there is only One God and One Savior with which mankind has anything to do.

    Both of these, I agree with.

    Thanks.

  21. #46
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    So that's what you are doing... I challenged my belief in mormonism and that challenge lead me to truth.. You have not even looked into the the if the teachings of Joseph Smith were true or where his later teachings came from.. You haven't worked out how God being Spirit can be true when Smith said that God isn't a spirit but a person of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22).. Or why a Book translated by the power of God had to undergo over 3,000 changes to get it right.. Or how David and Solomon could be an abomination in Jacob 2 of the BofM and justified in the 132 section of the D&C.. Why is the Bible so completely adamant that salvation is by God's grace through faith (John 3:15-16, Eph 2:8-9) and yet Joseph Smith have built in works that are the requirements (water baptism, laying on of hands, priesthoods, and temple endowment) for everlasting life?

    Yes It looks as though I just gave up real truth and ran into error doesn't? NOT.. I actually look deep into the error and begged Jesus to forgive me and make me His child (John 1:12).. IHS jim
    But it looks like either a) you never understood LDS doctrine when you were IN the Church. or b) you forgot what you believed, and now are bent on misrepresenting yourself by making statements that are not accurate.

  22. #47
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    But it looks like either a) you never understood LDS doctrine when you were IN the Church. or b) you forgot what you believed, and now are bent on misrepresenting yourself by making statements that are not accurate.
    If and when I misrepresent church doctrine point it out.. I have been in Gospel Doctrine cl***es where members have disagreed on points of doctrine before.. Just because you say what the doctrine of the church is doesn't make it so.. IHS jim

  23. #48
    akaSeerone
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    But it looks like either a) you never understood LDS doctrine when you were IN the Church. or b) you forgot what you believed, and now are bent on misrepresenting yourself by making statements that are not accurate.
    Why are you so bent on lying?

    Do you think that will somehow change the fact that mormonism is a false religion and in no way whatsoever Christian?

    Andy

  24. #49
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Your ***umptions that you have read into John address my question a little but not wholly. The p***age does not come close to answering my question as it is. So are you saying that there never was a time when Jesus' person was not? Was there a point when God was but one person?

    love,
    stem
    God has always been God he changes NOT.. He has always been as He is now.. He said so Himself:
    Mal 3:6
    For I am the LORD, I change not...

    Of course there are cultist that deny Him and His word... IHS jim

  25. #50
    akaSeerone
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    If and when I misrepresent church doctrine point it out.. I have been in Gospel Doctrine cl***es where members have disagreed on points of doctrine before.. Just because you say what the doctrine of the church is doesn't make it so.. IHS jim
    You got that right Jim.

    How many times have we seen mormons on these boards claim that even the things that Smith and Young said were not doctrine even though they taught it as doctrine?

    Andy

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