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Thread: Is God unable to create in kind?

  1. #51
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Is this a serious question?
    ---It is as serious as your claim that it's impossible for God to have children was. What happened to "With God, all things are possible" ?

    Jesus was/is God.
    ---Well then, Quiz time: Has it NEVER been possible for JESUS to have children?
    a) yes, it's never been possible
    b) no, the possibility has existed


    His Spirit was not created or begotten.
    --But His Father IS the Father of SPIRITS, acc. to the Bible. Plus you have His statements in the Bible saying that He IS God's Son, and He never uses the word "ADOPTED" in there as a qualifier. Funny how some people waste no time taking "I and my Father are one" literally, but when it comes to Jesus being the Son of God, all of a sudden it's "No, that's impossible, God can't have sons, Jesus must have meant that metaphorically."

    You also need to take note that he was the ONLY begotten Son of God (and that does not mean begotten in the same way you and I were).
    ---If God has one begotten son, then that refutes the idea that having a son is an impossibility for Him. And how do YOU know what the word "begotten" was intended ---and NOT intended --to mean by the NT authors?

    I disagree. God is not deficient in any way.
    ---If it's not evil to have kids, and if humans can have kids, and if God CAN'T have kids, then God gave humans abilities that He Himself does not have, which is really illogical if you think about it.

    As I said, all good things come from God, including the ability to pro-create.
    ---Great, you admit that procreation is a GOOD THING and that it is a God-given ability. So how can you believe that God is INCAPABLE of doing a good thing that He knew how to enable HUMANS to?? Makes no sense, just like much of "traditional Christian dogma" because it evolved during the supers***ious Dark Ages..

    The fact that He is above the need for some of it, certainly doesn't make Him less.
    ---The issue is not what God NEEDS. It's what He is ABLE to do.

    Well, I would have to agree with her, in some respects, as I bore three children of my own. But, you are overstepping my point (you do that a lot),
    ---I ****YZE your point and take it to its conclusion, which is something many people are afraid to do by themselves. I am just a "helper" in that dept.

    which is...without God we are nothing/non-existent.. and we have nothing, to which He cannot lay claim.
    ---Including our EVIL? You said there's NOTHING we have that He can't claim as His. Anyhow, your point is irrelevant since without YOUR parents, YOU wouldn't be here, yet that doesn't prove that your parents lacked any abilities that they gave to YOU, including your ability to procreate.

  2. #52
    Father_JD
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    ---It is as serious as your claim that it's impossible for God to have children was. What happened to "With God, all things are possible" ?

    What happened to CONTEXT, jeff?

    You've cited Jesus' words regarding SALVATION. You've misapplied the text as Mormons are wont to do.

    We KNOW from God's SELF-REVELATION, ya know, that compilation called, "The Holy Bible" that there are certain things God can't do:

    1. Lie
    2. Do anything CONTRARY to His NATURE.
    3. And NO, God can't create a rock that's too heavy for Him to lift...the ol' Mormon "poser" which no Christian theologian would consider valid.

  3. #53
    Father_JD
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    It's INCORRECT to label an "Incommunicable attribute" of God as if He's somehow "unable" to do something, in this case communicate His attribute of ETERNALITY and UNCREATEDNESS.

    God can NOT lie.
    God can NOT do anything CONTRARY to His own Holy nature.

    Since God is UNCREATE (we're talking about the biblical deity and NOT the Mormon one, btw), He is UNIQUE, in a cl*** by Himself (I'm referring to God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...NOT just the "Father").

    So the answer is NO, God is "unable" to make another DEITY such as Himself, because THAT "deity" could NOT BE UNCREATED.

    Got it now?

  4. #54
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Since God is UNCREATE (we're talking about the biblical deity and NOT the Mormon one, btw), He is UNIQUE, in a cl*** by Himself (I'm referring to God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...NOT just the "Father").So the answer is NO, God is "unable" to make another DEITY such as Himself, because THAT "deity" could NOT BE UNCREATED.

    ----Bzzzzt, non sequitur. You're gonna wear out the buzzer if you don't start making some correct statements. Let me walk you through your fallacious conclusion:

    1. Let's ***ume you believe that God has all the knowledge and wisdom and immortality that a person can possess.
    2. Let us also ***ume that you believe that God is omnipotent.
    3. Even if God is unable to make another uncreated being, He STILL should be ABLE to give a CREATED being immortality and the knowledge, and wisdom that He has.

    Your reasoning that goes "Since I believe God is uncreate, then it's impossible for Him to share His ABILITIES" is a non sequitur, since it DOES NOT FOLLOW that His being uncreate handicaps Him the way you are trying to hanicap Him.

  5. #55
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    What happened to CONTEXT, jeff?
    You've cited Jesus' words regarding SALVATION.
    ---So you're saying that "ALL THINGS" does not really mean literally all things? Good, we are making progress with you. Now if you can just consistently apply that to "Jesus created ALL THINGS" and "ALL have sinned," then you will be consistent.

    We KNOW from God's SELF-REVELATION, ya know, that compilation called, "The Holy Bible" that there are certain things God can't do:

    1. Lie
    2. Do anything CONTRARY to His NATURE.
    ---You forgot to mention "Have children." And "add to His "self-revelation" and "call prophets after the 1st century B.C." Come on, if you think God is so limited, you gotta list ALL the things you think He's unable to do even though your creed labels Him omnipotent.

    3. And NO, God can't create a rock that's too heavy for Him to lift...the ol' Mormon "poser" which no Christian theologian would consider valid. :rolleyes
    --Um, that did NOT come from the LDS-we tend to be more logical than that. Heck, we are the ones who believe there is LOTS of stuff that God is able to do--have children, and send His Son to the Americas, and make humans like Himself, for example. So give your straw man a rest.

  6. #56
    Libby
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    Jeff.......God tells us that He is the Only One and that He is the Creator of ALL that Is. Putting aside what God may or may not be able to do, why would He lie to us and tell us He is the only One and the Creator of "All That Is", if He really meant that He is NOT the only god and NOT the Creator of All That Is.....which does, btw, seriously limit His power and authority.

  7. #57
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Jeff.......God tells us that He is the Only One and that He is the Creator of ALL that Is.
    ----This thread isn't about whether or not we can become "creators of all things." It's about whether you are correct to ***ume that an omnipotent God is unable to procreate. I say you are incorrect to ***ume it.

    Putting aside what God may or may not be able to do
    --Why are you trying to put aside the TOPIC OF THE THREAD? Didn't you just lecture me on the evils of straying off-topic?

  8. #58
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    In each of these cases, the context is either
    1) That idols and gods of the heathen are not to be compared with the living God of Israel.
    It is more like there is no comparison because there are no other gods:

    6"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
    'I am the first and I am the last,
    And there is no God besides Me.
    7'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
    Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
    From the time that I established the ancient nation.
    And let them declare to them the things that are coming
    And the events that are going to take place.
    8'Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
    Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
    And you are My witnesses
    Is there any God besides Me,
    Or is there any other Rock?
    I know of none.'"

    OR

    2) That there is only One God and One Savior
    This part is true.

    with which mankind has anything to do.
    This makes me think that you mean that there are more Gods like God (unlike the type of god listed below) and only one that matters to earthlings.

    18They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend. No one recalls, nor is there knowledge or understanding to say, "I have burned half of it in the fire and also have baked bread over its coals I roast meat and eat it Then I make the rest of it into an abomination, I fall down before a block of wood!" He feeds on ashes; a deceived heart has turned him aside And he cannot deliver himself, nor say, "Is there not a lie in my right hand?"

    Blessings,

    MacG
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  9. #59
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ----This thread isn't about whether or not we can become "creators of all things." It's about whether you are correct to ***ume that an omnipotent God is unable to procreate. I say you are incorrect to ***ume it.



    --Why are you trying to put aside the TOPIC OF THE THREAD? Didn't you just lecture me on the evils of straying off-topic?
    Actually, what I pointed out is very relevant to this thread. If He is the One and Only and is Creator of ALL that is, then it's obvious that He will not be creating any other en***ies like Himself. Some of that "logic" stuff you like to throw around.

  10. #60
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Actually, what I pointed out is very relevant to this thread. If He is the One and Only and is Creator of ALL that is, then it's obvious that He will not be creating any other en***ies like Himself. Some of that "logic" stuff you like to throw around.
    ---Nope, nice try, but you committed a non sequitur, perhaps combined with a straw man. EVEN IF God is the creator of all that is, it does NOT necessarily prevent Him from givng virtually ALL his abilities to another person. Heck, He could even give the ability to create another universe to someone, since that as-yet-uncreated universe hasn't been created yet, and therefore doesn't conflict with the description of God as the creator of all that IS. It's really an extension of the logic that refutes the idea that if God has the ability to be immortal, that makes Him unable to make someone else immortal too.

  11. #61
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Nope, nice try, but you committed a non sequitur, perhaps combined with a straw man. EVEN IF God is the creator of all that is, it does NOT necessarily prevent Him from givng virtually ALL his abilities to another person. Heck, He could even give the ability to create another universe to someone, since that as-yet-uncreated universe hasn't been created yet, and therefore doesn't conflict with the description of God as the creator of all that IS. It's really an extension of the logic that refutes the idea that if God has the ability to be immortal, that makes Him unable to make someone else immortal too.
    This is really simple, Jeff. If God allowed someone else to create anything, even a speck of sand, He would no longer BE the Creator of All That Is. He, also, would no longer be the One and only Creator (no God beside Me).

  12. #62
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    This is really simple, Jeff.
    ---I know. It IS simple: You need to quit limiting God's abilities. If you think He's UNABLE to teach someone else how to create something, then you have gravely underestimated what God is able to do. Heck, what do you think inspiration is? It's God teaching someone how to do something that God Himself already knows how to do. What--you don't think He could be that good a teacher? Then think again.


    If God allowed someone else to create anything, even a speck of sand, He would no longer BE the Creator of All That Is. He, also, would no longer be the One and only Creator (no God beside Me).
    ---So which is it that you don't believe about God:

    a) that He is ABLE to teach others how to do what He can do; or

    b) that He is just UNWILLING to ALLOW anyone else to do what He can do
    ???? Either way, you are showing that you have a low opinion of God. Maybe you should re-think the theology that you have signed onto.

  13. #63
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---I know. It IS simple: You need to quit limiting God's abilities. If you think He's UNABLE to teach someone else how to create something, then you have gravely underestimated what God is able to do. Heck, what do you think inspiration is? It's God teaching someone how to do something that God Himself already knows how to do. What--you don't think He could be that good a teacher? Then think again.



    ---So which is it that you don't believe about God:

    a) that He is ABLE to teach others how to do what He can do; or

    b) that He is just UNWILLING to ALLOW anyone else to do what He can do
    ???? Either way, you are showing that you have a low opinion of God. Maybe you should re-think the theology that you have signed onto.
    I believe God's Word, where He says:

    Isaiah 43:10

    "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

    and

    Colossians 1:16-17

    "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."

  14. #64
    akaSeerone
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I believe God's Word, where He says:

    Isaiah 43:10

    "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

    and

    Colossians 1:16-17

    "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."
    Great Scripture Libby.

    Jeff simply has no argument and makes me wonder why he plays these ridiculous games.


    Andy

  15. #65
    Father_JD
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    Originally Posted by Father_JD
    What happened to CONTEXT, jeff?
    You've cited Jesus' words regarding SALVATION.

    ---So you're saying that "ALL THINGS" does not really mean literally all things? Good, we are making progress with you. Now if you can just consistently apply that to "Jesus created ALL THINGS" and "ALL have sinned," then you will be consistent.

    That's just it, jeff. One can NOT CONSISTENTLY ram-rod ONE meaning of any given biblical term into ALL CONTEXTS! If I've said it once I've said it dozens of times here: CONTEXT DETERMINES MEANING, I.E. USAGE. Why are you still playing this game?


    Quote:
    We KNOW from God's SELF-REVELATION, ya know, that compilation called, "The Holy Bible" that there are certain things God can't do:

    1. Lie
    2. Do anything CONTRARY to His NATURE.

    ---You forgot to mention "Have children." And "add to His "self-revelation" and "call prophets after the 1st century B.C." Come on, if you think God is so limited, you gotta list ALL the things you think He's unable to do even though your creed labels Him omnipotent.

    God can NOT create another "deity", jeff. God is the SELF-EXISTENT one (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who inhabits eternity. God is BY NATURE UNCREATE. Anyone else or thing is CREATED. Mormonism consistently confuses the Creator with CREATION.


    Quote:
    3. And NO, God can't create a rock that's too heavy for Him to lift...the ol' Mormon "poser" which no Christian theologian would consider valid. :rolleyes

    --Um, that did NOT come from the LDS-we tend to be more logical than that. Heck, we are the ones who believe there is LOTS of stuff that God is able to do--have children, and send His Son to the Americas, and make humans like Himself, for example. So give your straw man a rest.

    That's EXACTLY where I heard it...at the local "ward", jeff.

  16. #66
    Father_JD
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    Originally Posted by Father_JD
    Since God is UNCREATE (we're talking about the biblical deity and NOT the Mormon one, btw), He is UNIQUE, in a cl*** by Himself (I'm referring to God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...NOT just the "Father").So the answer is NO, God is "unable" to make another DEITY such as Himself, because THAT "deity" could NOT BE UNCREATED.


    ----Bzzzzt, non sequitur. You're gonna wear out the buzzer if you don't start making some correct statements. Let me walk you through your fallacious conclusion:
    "Non-sequitur"? jeff...please go look up the word. I've given you the EXACT REASON WHY.


    1. Let's ***ume you believe that God has all the knowledge and wisdom and immortality that a person can possess.

    I don't believe that because this is NOT what the biblical revelation teaches, jeff. Better put, NO person can, does, or ever will possess "all the knowledge, wisdom or immortality" that GOD POSSESSES. You confuse the Creator with the creation. In a nutshell, your "god" is no more than the Greek demi-gods of mythology.


    2. Let us also ***ume that you believe that God is omnipotent.

    Again, I must ask you to confine the meaning to BIBLICAL USAGE, and not your Mormon misunderstanding of the word.



    3. Even if God is unable to make another uncreated being, He STILL should be ABLE to give a CREATED being immortality and the knowledge, and wisdom that He has.

    Nope. Ya wanna know why, jeff? 'Cause God is INFINITE, and we human beings are FINITE. God's attribute of infinity is an UNCOMMUNICABLE ATTRIBUTE. Why are Mos so confused by the obvious??


    Your reasoning that goes "Since I believe God is uncreate, then it's impossible for Him to share His ABILITIES" is a non sequitur, since it DOES NOT FOLLOW that His being uncreate handicaps Him the way you are trying to hanicap Him.
    God HAS communicated SOME of His attributes to us. This is WHY scripture says that man was "created in God's Image". Mormonism unfortunately has created god in man's image.

  17. #67
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I believe God's Word, where He says:
    Isaiah 43:10
    "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
    and
    Colossians 1:16-17
    "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."
    ---That is great that you believe that God and Jesus created everything that had been created up to that point. But it's NOT so great that you tried to use those verses to reach the unfounded, illogical, and God-LIMITING EISEGESIS that God and Jesus therefore are UNABLE to TEACH other people what They know. Those 2 verses do NOT say ANYTHING about God being limited in that regard. To have such a low opinion of His abilities--to think that an omnipotent God can't teach what He knows to others--is a surprising position for a professed believer in the "3 omnis" to hold.

  18. #68
    Father_JD
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    Who said that God Triune is "unable to teach other people what They know", jeff?

    What you consistenly FAIL to understand is that God Triune IS INFINITE, and we creatures are FINITE.

    Consequently, there can only be a LIMIT as to HOW MUCH we can be taught.

    You confuse the Creator with the creation.

  19. #69
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Who said that God Triune is "unable to teach other people what They know", jeff?

    What you consistenly FAIL to understand is that God Triune IS INFINITE, and we creatures are FINITE.

    Consequently, there can only be a LIMIT as to HOW MUCH we can be taught.

    You confuse the Creator with the creation.
    How can a 2D object understand the 3rd Dimension?

    MacG
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  20. #70
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    "Non-sequitur"? jeff...please go look up the word.
    ---I did look it up, and your picture was there. Maybe you missed THIS:

    Your reasoning that goes "Since I believe God is uncreate, then it's impossible for Him to share His ABILITIES" is a non sequitur, since it DOES NOT FOLLOW that His being uncreate handicaps Him the way you are trying to hanicap Him.

    You must really hate the idea that even an uncreated God is able to teach other people all the stuff He knows. Too bad. There is no law prohibiting Him from doing it. And frankly, I find your tantrums about God having such an ability troubling and comical at the same time.


    Nope. Ya wanna know why, jeff? 'Cause God is INFINITE, and we human beings are FINITE. God's attribute of infinity is an UNCOMMUNICABLE ATTRIBUTE.
    --That is just metaphysical mumbo-jumbo that, at the end of the day, does NOT limit God. You're gonna have an infinite lifespan in heaven, are you not? So even someone with as pathetically limited imagination as you, has all the time in the universe to learn what God wants to teach you. If He has an INFINITE amount of time to impart His knowledge and wisdom to you, then what limits your potential? YOU do. If you don't want to "partake of that divine nature," then don't. But don't you dare tell GOD that He is UNABLE to give it to you. Sheesh, you're supposed to be the guys that believe that God is so omnipotent, and here you are desperately trying to limit God. It's really fun to watch.

  21. #71
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    It is more like there is no comparison because there are no other gods:

    6"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
    'I am the first and I am the last,
    And there is no God besides Me.
    7'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
    Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
    From the time that I established the ancient nation.
    And let them declare to them the things that are coming
    And the events that are going to take place.
    8'Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
    Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
    And you are My witnesses
    Is there any God besides Me,
    Or is there any other Rock?
    I know of none.'"
    Again this is spoken in the context of pagan gods and idols.

    True. We have not God but the God of Israel. This is not saying that there are no other gods in existence. But a declaration of WHO the God of Israel is.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    This makes me think that you mean that there are more Gods like God (unlike the type of god listed below) and only one that matters to earthlings.
    God has revealed very little about worlds and heavens beyond what pertains to us directly. It is no wonder that so many people think that what lives upon this world is the extent of humanity throughout all of existence.

  22. #72
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    If and when I misrepresent church doctrine point it out..
    OK, when you said this:

    Mormonism denys that saying that god created our spirits and place our preexisting spirit in it.. Like most LDS doctrine this one is upside down.. IHS jim
    Do you see what is misrepresentative about this?

  23. #73
    aaronshaf
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    Then your God isn't begetting a being in kind, but rather begetting a body in kind for a being what was already in kind before he or his body was ever begotten. Get it?

  24. #74
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    Then your God isn't begetting a being in kind, but rather begetting a body in kind for a being what was already in kind before he or his body was ever begotten. Get it?
    Yes, exactly!

  25. #75
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    Then your God isn't begetting a being in kind, but rather begetting a body in kind for a being what was already in kind before he or his body was ever begotten. Get it?
    Actually, you aren't far off. Hence the tie in with references in Genesis to "image" and "likeness".

    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Gen 1:26)

    And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: (Genesis 5:3)


    Do you know what "beget" means?

    Here from Miriam-Webster:
    1 : to procreate as the father : sire
    2 : to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth

    Just as man does not ex nihilo conjure up life when we beget in kind, neither does God conjure up our existence when he begets in kind.

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