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Thread: Is God unable to create in kind?

  1. #76
    akaSeerone
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Actually, you aren't far off. Hence the tie in with references in Genesis to "image" and "likeness".

    ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Gen 1:26)

    And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: (Genesis 5:3)


    Do you know what "beget" means?

    Here from Miriam-Webster:
    1 : to procreate as the father : sire
    2 : to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth

    Just as man does not ex nihilo conjure up life when we beget in kind, neither does God conjure up our existence when he begets in kind.
    Genesis does not say that God begot us.

    So what do you have to say now?

    Andy

  2. #77
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    Genesis does not say that God begot us.

    So what do you have to say now?

    Andy
    ---I'd say that Hebrews 12:9 points out that God is the father of spirits.

  3. #78
    aaronshaf
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    Hebrews 12:9? I'll paste what I wrote yesterday elsewhere:

    the "Father of spirits" reference comes from Hebrews 12 but LDS usage fails to notice the surrounding context. Verse 8 reads, "If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons."

    So given that Mormons want to take verse 9 ultra-literally, we have to ask: Are there illegitimate spirit children here on earth? Did God cheat on his sealed wive(s) in heaven and sleep with another God's wife, thus having illegitimate spirit children, some of whom have been sent to earth, never to be disciplined? The whole point of the p***age is that "God is treating you as sons" (v. 7), i.e. by discipline. The language is that of metaphor. If not, Mormons should be consistent and admit God the Father had an affair and that he had spirit children out of wedlock.

  4. #79
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    Hebrews 12:9? I'll paste what I wrote yesterday elsewhere:

    the "Father of spirits" reference comes from Hebrews 12 but LDS usage fails to notice the surrounding context. Verse 8 reads, "If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons."

    So given that Mormons want to take verse 9 ultra-literally, we have to ask: Are there illegitimate spirit children here on earth? Did God cheat on his sealed wive(s) in heaven and sleep with another God's wife, thus having illegitimate spirit children, some of whom have been sent to earth, never to be disciplined? The whole point of the p***age is that "God is treating you as sons" (v. 7), i.e. by discipline. The language is that of metaphor. If not, Mormons should be consistent and admit God the Father had an affair and that he had spirit children out of wedlock.
    Oh, my. That's good.

  5. #80
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    Hebrews 12:9? I'll paste what I wrote yesterday elsewhere:
    ---Aaron, I am happy to accept the context you put v. 9 into.
    My post was a response to Andy's almost-incoherent "Genesis does not say that God begot us." I wasn't really being serious--it's usually not necessary or even advisable when dealing with Andy's ramblings.

  6. #81
    akaSeerone
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Aaron, I am happy to accept the context you put v. 9 into.
    My post was a response to Andy's almost-incoherent "Genesis does not say that God begot us." I wasn't really being serious--it's usually not necessary or even advisable when dealing with Andy's ramblings.
    There you go lying again.

    Where in Genesis does it say that God begot us?

    You should be suspended until you get your much needed at***ude adjustment.

    Andy

  7. #82
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    There you go lying again.
    ---I wasn't lying, Andy--I really AM happy to accept the context that Aaron put v. 9 into.

    Where in Genesis does it say that God begot us?
    ----Will you settle for Luke 3:38? Despite what you may think, Luke is part of the Bible too:
    Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    You should be suspended until you get your much needed at***ude adjustment.
    ----Um, you calling me a liar in multiple posts might be a more urgent cry for "suspend me!" than anything I have posted....what's the deal with YOUR at***ude? Are you ever happy? About ANYTHING?

  8. #83
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Actually we ARE created BY God in the beginning--as he says--in his image and likeness.
    Here is the LDS progression

    Intelligence----->spirit child----->physical being------>exalted being


    How did the LDS god create us according to LDS theology?

  9. #84
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    How did the LDS god create us according to LDS theology?
    ----How did da Vinci create the Mona Lisa?

  10. #85
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ----How did da Vinci create the Mona Lisa?
    According to LDS thought we co-existed with God. If this is true then did God really create us?

  11. #86
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Is God unable to create in kind?
    Can the LDS god create in kind?

    Can the LDS god create intelligences?


    Recall
    Intelligences----->spirit child----->human----->resurrected being/exaltation

  12. #87
    aaronshaf
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    Exactly. The Mormon God can only "beget" spirit bodies for existing beings already of the same kind, or "create" (not beget) immortal bodies of flesh and bone such as for Adam and Eve.

    But not actual persons or beings in his own kind.

    The event of creating Adam and Eve's bodies of flesh and bone was apparently a more direct action, but not of begetting. Whether or not a Mormon takes the created-from-dust narrative more straightforwardly, Heavenly Mother presumably didn't p*** Adam and Eve through her exalted womb two times, once for a spirit body, and again for a body of flesh and bones. The first process was that of begetting, and the second was seemingly not.

    Indeed, with the latter there doesn't even seem to have been required a Heavenly Mother.

    This has really interesting implications for Mormons who use Luke 3:38 to prove that Adam has his lineage in a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.

    Indeed, we have to ask in response to the Mormon usage of this p***age: Is Heavenly Father alone (without Heavenly Mother) the parent of Adam's body of flesh and bones? Do the garden-bodies of Adam and Eve only have one parent?

    What implication in Mormonism does this have for our bodies (of flesh and bone) and how they have been said to be in the image of Heavenly Father? If Heavenly Mother wasn't even involved in the creation or begetting of such bodies, then what does this mean for the bodies of women?
    Last edited by aaronshaf; 02-14-2010 at 08:21 PM.

  13. #88
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Can the LDS god create in kind?

    Can the LDS god create intelligences?


    Recall
    Intelligences----->spirit child----->human----->resurrected being/exaltation
    If by "create" you mean "beget", then yes.

    Look at the pattern here on earth:
    Birth/Infant--->toddler--->rebellious teenager--->college grad--->grown adult--->husband/father--->etc.

    There is a progression here. I did not bear a college grad or rich doctor, but the potential for transformation is there.
    Last edited by Fig-bearing Thistle; 02-14-2010 at 10:43 PM.

  14. #89
    aaronshaf
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    FBT, what do you mean? It seems rather that the Mormon God begets spirit bodies for intelligences, not begets intelligences into being.

  15. #90
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    FBT, what do you mean? It seems rather that the Mormon God begets spirit bodies for intelligences, not begets intelligences into being.
    Right, our being cannot be created.

    He creates our bodies to house our being so that we can progress.
    Progress where?
    To where and what He is through obedience to gospel principles and ordinances.

    I use the word "beget" to indicate that God facilitates a path to become what He is.

  16. #91
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Right, our being cannot be created.

    He creates our bodies to house our being so that we can progress.
    Progress where?
    To where and what He is through obedience to gospel principles and ordinances.

    I use the word "beget" to indicate that God facilitates a path to become what He is.
    So you would agree that God is incapable of creating our intelligence?

    And that we co-existed with god from eternity past?

  17. #92
    Joshua.Thomas
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    This process of acquiring a testimony is essential to one’s membership in the Mormon Church. Mormons believe each member has the privilege to know personally what is true. The Spirit of the Lord will testify to individuals, so that they can feel a conviction of the teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

  18. #93
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    Exactly. The Mormon God can only "beget" spirit bodies for existing beings already of the same kind, or "create" (not beget) immortal bodies of flesh and bone such as for Adam and Eve.
    But not actual persons or beings in his own kind.

    ---Well, that should make you happy, Aaron--according to you, the LDS have the "orthodox" doctrine that God is unable to procreate. So you'll kindly tell all your Cram buddies to stop ridiculing us and claiming that our doctrine is that God CAN procreate....right?

  19. #94
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post

    ---Well, that should make you happy, Aaron--according to you, the LDS have the "orthodox" doctrine that God is unable to procreate. So you'll kindly tell all your Cram buddies to stop ridiculing us and claiming that our doctrine is that God CAN procreate....right?
    Jeff, please help us understand LDS theology.

    Intelligence (uncreated by god and co-existent with god)----->spiritual baby

    How do you take this uncreated intelligence that co-exists with God and make a spiritual baby? Does God the Father make a spiritual body and then place the intelligence into that spiritual body without the help of Heavenly Mother? Or does God the Father incorporate this intelligence material into himself and then p*** this material to Heavenly mother in a similar way that we procreate here on this earth?

  20. #95
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Jeff, please help us understand LDS theology.
    --I am happy to try. Start by reading what our scriptures and official website say about it.

    How do you take this uncreated intelligence that co-exists with God and make a spiritual baby?
    ---How did your mom and dad take whatever it was they took, and make YOU? Whatever they did involved substance that already existed, right? (DNA, for example) What prevents God from taking some existing substance or essence, and making your SPIRIT from it? I see no law preventing Him from doing that.

    Does God the Father make a spiritual body and then place the intelligence into that spiritual body without the help of Heavenly Mother?
    --we don't know because the info hasn't been given to us.

    Or does God the Father incorporate this intelligence material into himself and then p*** this material to Heavenly mother in a similar way that we procreate here on this earth?
    ----We don't know because the info hasn't been given to us, but your hypothesis isn't totally nonsensical so I'd include it in the list of many possible explanations. Theology answers "WHY" questions more than it does "HOW" questions.

  21. #96
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua.Thomas View Post
    This process of acquiring a testimony is essential to one’s membership in the Mormon Church. Mormons believe each member has the privilege to know personally what is true. The Spirit of the Lord will testify to individuals, so that they can feel a conviction of the teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
    Hi Josh.

    Thanks for your good input here. What you said is spot on. The Holy Ghost is a second witness--a confirming witness--of what we have come to know is true through study, and pondering the word of God.

    This is the essence of a Testimony.

  22. #97
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Hi Josh.

    Thanks for your good input here. What you said is spot on. The Holy Ghost is a second witness--a confirming witness--of what we have come to know is true through study, and pondering the word of God.

    This is the essence of a Testimony.
    But I have a testimony about truth that conflicts with your testimony. Can both of us have a witness from God about conflicting data?

  23. #98
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But I have a testimony about truth that conflicts with your testimony. Can both of us have a witness from God about conflicting data?
    ---Can Moses have a witness from God that it's okay to hit back, yet Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have a witness from God that it's NOT okay to hit back?

  24. #99
    aaronshaf
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    I use the word "beget" to indicate that God facilitates a path to become what He is.
    With that definition, when God gave us the Law, he was begetting us, and when he gives us food, he is begetting us, and when he speaks through prophets, he is begetting us, etc.

    The definition is too broad. If anything that facilitates our path to deification in Mormonism is "begetting", just about everything in the plan of salvation is "begetting". It's as though God is begetting us in a begetting-process for thousands of years.

    It sounds too ad hoc of an overly broad definition, see what I mean?

  25. #100
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Can Moses have a witness from God that it's okay to hit back, yet Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have a witness from God that it's NOT okay to hit back?
    Jeff, you are comparing apples to oranges. The old covenant is completely different than the new covenant. LDS say that they are a restoration of the NT church not a revision of the NT church. If you said that the LDS church is a revision of the NT church then yes I could agree with your ****ogy, but that is not what the LDS claims.

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