Is God unable to create in kind?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Still, if you remove a foundation, the building collapses.

Who is removing (or continually revising) THE foundation--Mormons or Christians?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But God does not beget in kind according to LDS thought because your essence or intelligence is co-existent with God and God can't create or beget this intelligence or essence.

God begets in kind much like we do. You would be the first to acknowledge that dogs do not beget in kind by your over-the-top definition, because they don't actually create the spirit that gives the dog carc*** life. God does.

God doesn't beget our intelligence, but he begets a spirit body for it to inhabit.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

God begets in kind much like we do. You would be the first to acknowledge that dogs do not beget in kind by your over-the-top definition, because they don't actually create the spirit that gives the dog carc*** life. God does.

God doesn't beget our intelligence, but he begets a spirit body for it to inhabit.

So do you believe that God created an "animal intelligence" (which the LDS god is incapable to create the human intelligence)or do you believe that the animal intelligence is self existent similar to the human intelligence?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So do you believe that God created an "animal intelligence" (which the LDS god is incapable to create the human intelligence)or do you believe that the animal intelligence is self existent similar to the human intelligence?

I believe all intelligences are self-existent.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

I believe all intelligences are self-existent.

Where do these eternal animals go after they die? Do they go to different kingdoms based on their mortal works?

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

I believe all intelligences are self-existent.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

If we were self existent we would not need God, and we would in fact be gods.....and there is only THE God.....always has been and always will be THE ONLY GOD.

Sorry fig but you have no idea what you are talking about.

But we all know that.

Andy

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

That makes no sense whatsoever.

If we were self existent we would not need God, and we would in fact be gods

---Andy, this may be hard for you to grasp because it's probably at a 3rd-grade level, but what if a type of self-existent germ was discovered out in space? Just because it was self-existent, doesn't make it omnipotent or omniscient or omnivorous or whatever else has been programmed into you to believe about God. It would still JUST BE A GERM, with all the abilities and mental competence of a germ---not much. To that germ, YOU, a NON-self-existent but sentient, intelligent mammal, would be like a GOD.

That's enough of a refutation, I mean lesson, for you for today.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Just because it was self-existent, doesn't make it omnipotent or omniscient or omnivorous or whatever else has been programmed into you to believe about God. . .

How does it make you feel that your god did not really create you but rather just made a shell for you to live in?

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Andy, this may be hard for you to grasp because it's probably at a 3rd-grade level, but what if a type of self-existent germ was discovered out in space? Just because it was self-existent, doesn't make it omnipotent or omniscient or omnivorous or whatever else has been programmed into you to believe about God. It would still JUST BE A GERM, with all the abilities and mental competence of a germ---not much. To that germ, YOU, a NON-self-existent but sentient, intelligent mammal, would be like a GOD.

That's enough of a refutation, I mean lesson, for you for today.

More pure nonsense and meaningless post.

I have the Bible to back me up and all you have is your what ifs and you have the gall to think you have refuted me.

All you have shown everyone again is you have no idea what you are talking about and bask in your puffed up mind, making things up as you go like as if those things mean anything.

You are delusional dude if you really think anything you said has any Biblical meaning whatsoever.

Live with it or repent....if you don't you will end up in hell with you god Smith who thought he could make things up as he went and look what it got him.....much deserved early death and a guest of Satan.

Andy

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

That makes no sense whatsoever.

If we were self existent we would not need God,

Non sequitur.

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Non sequitur.

No it is not a non sequitur.

God is the one and only self existent being.

You have no argument because there is nothing to be refuted about God being the one and only self existent being.

Oh...then there is also the irrefutable FACT that God created EVERYTHING in existence except for Himself.


Andy

[Radix]

I really should not be surprised there has not been a response to this. A self existent God is beyond the comprehension of most LDS. Somehow in LDS circles there are eternal principles, but no eternal god.

[nrajeff]

(Just because it was self-existent, doesn't make it omnipotent or omniscient or omnivorous or whatever else has been programmed into you to believe about God)

Originally Posted by Billyray

How does it make you feel that your god did not really create you but rather just made a shell for you to live in?

---You committed yet another fallacy--the false premise that if God creates spirits from something other than total nothingness, that He has not created anything at all. I think DaVinci, Rembrandt, Mozart, and Frank Lloyd Wright--not to mention God--would disagree with that logic.

Besides, even if your premise were not a false one, it is an irrelevant response to the issue of whether or not God is self-existent. It has nothing to do with it, so why did you try to use it?

P.S.-- I'll take a God who creates something good anyday, and the fact that He created it from non-nothingness doesn't make me feel bad at all, as it shouldn't. Your attempt to insult isn't gonna work on people who know better, such as myself.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

then there is also the irrefutable FACT that God created EVERYTHING in existence except for Himself.

---Really? If EVERYTHING currently in existence was created by God, then when did God create Charles Manson? Are you saying that God didn't stop creating on that sixth day of creation, thousands of years ago? You believe that God CONTINUES to create things and beings and people? When, in your always-correct opinion, will God STOP creating? When will He take a breather, call it a day, rest from His labors?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How does it make you feel that your god did not really create you but rather just made a shell for you to live in?

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---You committed yet another fallacy--the false premise that if God creates spirits from something other than total nothingness, that He has not created anything at all.

Jeff, your post seems very disjointed and you seem to be quoting another poster later in your comments. Anyway to answer your first statement, you are completely false. You said that "He has not created anything at all." But if you simply read my post you will know that is not even what I ***erted. I did make note that the LDS god "made a shell for you to live in". But in all fairness your god did not really "create" this shell but a more accurate statement would be that he "organized" pre-existing material into a shell to house your pre-existing intelligence.

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Besides, even if your premise were not a false one, it is an irrelevant response to the issue of whether or not God is self-existent. It has nothing to do with it, so why did you try to use it?

I am not sure what you are talking about here Jeff. I think that you may be quoting a different poster.

Originally Posted by nrajeff

P.S.-- I'll take a God who creates something good anyday. . .

Even if it is a false god?

That is what people do all of the time Jeff, they make up a god in their mind , which in reality is a false god. If you feel good about following a false god then I can't stop you. But I certainly do not support your choice in good conscience.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

No it is not a non sequitur.

God is the one and only self existent being.

You have no argument because there is nothing to be refuted about God being the one and only self existent being.

Oh...then there is also the irrefutable FACT that God created EVERYTHING in existence except for Himself.


Andy

You said:

"If we were self existent we would not need God,"

That is a non sequitur.

We could not obtain spirit bodies w/o God. We could not advance w/o God.

So, obviously, you have not clue what you are talking about, and it is best to ignore you completely.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff, your post seems very disjointed and you seem to be quoting another poster later in your comments. Anyway to answer your first statement, you are completely false. You said that "He has not created anything at all." But if you simply read my post you will know that is not even what I ***erted. I did make note that the LDS god "made a shell for you to live in". But in all fairness your god did not really "create" this shell but a more accurate statement would be that he "organized" pre-existing material into a shell to house your pre-existing intelligence.

This "shell" is called a body. Use the scriptural term, please.

Your made up god is a hocus pocus conjuring god who makes his own rules whenever he likes, and never has to follow them if he doesn't like. So, how's that for some inflammatory rhetoric to match your own?

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

You said:

"If we were self existent we would not need God,"

That is a non sequitur.

We could not obtain spirit bodies w/o God. We could not advance w/o God.

So, obviously, you have not clue what you are talking about, and it is best to ignore you completely.

God is Spirit and he has no body.

God is self existent, so what makes you think if we were self existent (and we are not) we would need a God to create us.

Self existent beings, if there were any besides God and there isn't, by definition would not need a God to create them because they already exist.

What is this mythical "spirit body" thingy you are trying to use as some lame excuse to make yourself seem believable?

Spirit bodies....yea right....talk about a non sequitur. (Just like your screen name....another slapping God in the face non sequitur.)

Go ahead and ignore me if you want, it will not change the truth/the obvious/common sense and you will remain lost and without hope.



Andy

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

This "shell" is called a body. Use the scriptural term, please.

The way that I see it the LDS god did not really create anything. Your intelligence or essence was not created by god, your physical body was not created by god, and your spiritual body was not created by god but rather organized using pre-existing material.

BTW can you tell us how god took your preexisting intelligence and made a spirit body? Did he incorporate you intelligence into his sperm to impregnated your heavenly mother after which she then went on to deliver you. Or do you believe that he just created a spirit body for your preexisting intelligence without the need for a heavenly mother. If this is the case what is the role for a heavenly mother at all?

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Really? If EVERYTHING currently in existence was created by God, then when did God create Charles Manson? Are you saying that God didn't stop creating on that sixth day of creation, thousands of years ago? You believe that God CONTINUES to create things and beings and people? When, in your always-correct opinion, will God STOP creating? When will He take a breather, call it a day, rest from His labors?

Read and learn your Bible and quit with the childish nonsense games.

God created Adam and Eve.....all the rest of humanity came from them, so what you are saying is nonsense and no....The Bible says that God rested and is at rest from creating.

Why are you trying to make it look like I said something that I did not say?

It is making you look helpless/hopeless to rebute.....but then we all already know that.

Andy

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Really? If EVERYTHING currently in existence was created by God, then when did God create Charles Manson? Are you saying that God didn't stop creating on that sixth day of creation, thousands of years ago? You believe that God CONTINUES to create things and beings and people? When, in your always-correct opinion, will God STOP creating? When will He take a breather, call it a day, rest from His labors?

You really gotta grasp on the concept of SECONDARY CREATION, jeff-dude.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Again this is spoken in the context of pagan gods and idols.

True. We have not God but the God of Israel. This is not saying that there are no other gods in existence. But a declaration of WHO the God of Israel is.

Not just the God of Israel:
Rev7:9After these things I looked, and behold, a great mul***ude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen."

But the God of all of the universe who created all things:

Rev:3:11"Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."

God has revealed very little about worlds and heavens beyond what pertains to us directly. It is no wonder that so many people think that what lives upon this world is the extent of humanity throughout all of existence.

Why do you suppose? When this one God with whom we have to deal says that there will be no Gods made either before Him or after Him it is best to believe Him. It is the same God that created Adam before there was an Israel and the same God of the mul***ude above - the Bible is truth for all.

Blessings,

MacG

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by MacG

Not just the God of Israel:
Rev7:9After these things I looked, and behold, a great mul***ude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen."

But the God of all of the universe who created all things:

Rev:3:11"Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."



Why do you suppose? When this one God with whom we have to deal says that there will be no Gods made either before Him or after Him it is best to believe Him. It is the same God that created Adam before there was an Israel and the same God of the mul***ude above - the Bible is truth for all.

Blessings,

MacG

Again, the context is false gods and idol worship, and the source of our salvation. The only God that can bring man to salvation is the One True God. There are no others.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The way that I see it the LDS god did not really create anything. Your intelligence or essence was not created by god, your physical body was not created by god, and your spiritual body was not created by god but rather organized using pre-existing material.

Yep. Wonderful, isn't it? What God can do with unorganized materials. That is one reason why we worship Him.

On the other hand, you would say that your essence was created by God, and God built your essence to choose whatever he wanted you to choose, and so you have no free will.

Originally Posted by Billyray

BTW can you tell us how God took your preexisting intelligence and made a spirit body? Did he incorporate you intelligence into his sperm to impregnated your heavenly mother after which she then went on to deliver you. Or do you believe that he just created a spirit body for your preexisting intelligence without the need for a heavenly mother. If this is the case what is the role for a heavenly mother at all?

Thanks for capitalizing God. Oh I had to do it for you. Thank goodness for editing huh?

No, I can't tell you how God did it all. Can you tell me how God conjured up your personality? And why he built you to choose what you have chosen in your life?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

Read and learn your Bible and quit with the childish nonsense games.

--The way I see it, it's not a childish game to ask you about your "interesting" ("The entire Trinity has always been, is now, and forever will be, in agony on the cross") beliefs.

God created Adam and Eve.....all the rest of humanity came from them, so what you are saying is nonsense and no....The Bible says that God rested and is at rest from creating.

--So you admit that you believe that God didn't create you. That's a good start toward correcting your erroneous beliefs.

Why are you trying to make it look like I said something that I did not say?

---Why are you saying things that are so...interesting?