Is God unable to create in kind?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Originally Posted by Billyray

Regeneration (born again) is the work of God and not of man. Without being born again you can't even see the kingdom of God.

---You don't see how "cult-think" that idea is? "The reason our beliefs seem illogical and unfair to you, is simply because God hasn't called you to be one of "the Body" and you are therefore UNABLE to understand these concepts." What a great (but condescending) excuse for the illogic of one's beliefs. Didn't the Gnostics have similar reasoning?

Jeff, did you cause yourself to be physically born? Who regenerates you, God OR do you do it yourself with the aid of your priesthood?

[nrajeff]

Billy, who causes you to learn and understand stuff? ONLY God? Who gets the credit when you understand and accept teachings about God, Jesus, and the gospel? Who gets the blame when you FAIL to understand those things? If you believe that God is solely and directly responsible for all your successes, then have fun with the hyperCalvinists, but try to realize that such reasoning, taken to its conclusion, ends up blaming God for all your failures, too. Oh, and the HyperCalvinists are somewhat of an extremist fringe of Evangelicalism, which itself is a minority subset of modern Christendom.

[akaSeerone]

OK, let's go along with what you say and put the blame on God.

So what!?!?

Without God where are we?

No where....we wouldn't exist.

Without God what are we.

Nothing....we would not exist.

You antis have a lot of nerve point you wretched bonny fingers at God and blaming Him for what man did to His perfect creation.

As the saying goes....God have mercy on your soul...in hell.

Andy

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

OK, let's go along with what you say and put the blame on God.
So what!?!?
Without God where are we?
No where....we wouldn't exist.
Without God what are we.
Nothing....we would not exist.
You antis have a lot of nerve point you wretched bonny fingers at God and blaming Him for what man did to His perfect creation.
As the saying goes....God have mercy on your soul...in hell.
Andy

--Andy, as usual you don't have a CLUE what you are talking about. It's NOT the LDS who put the blame on God, it's the anti-LDS who don't consider the end-result of their doctrine.

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--Andy, as usual you don't have a CLUE what you are talking about. It's NOT the LDS who put the blame on God, it's the anti-LDS who don't consider the end-result of their doctrine.

Get real mormon

It is you mormons that falsely accuse us Christians of blaming God because as mormon you have no clue about Biblical context and thus you are the one that has no idea what YOU are talking about and that in the long run does have you mormons blaming God.

Andy

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Billy, who causes you to learn and understand stuff? ONLY God? Who gets the credit when you understand and accept teachings about God, Jesus, and the gospel? Who gets the blame when you FAIL to understand those things? If you believe that God is solely and directly responsible for all your successes, then have fun with the hyperCalvinists, but try to realize that such reasoning, taken to its conclusion, ends up blaming God for all your failures, too. Oh, and the HyperCalvinists are somewhat of an extremist fringe of Evangelicalism, which itself is a minority subset of modern Christendom.

Who said anything about Calvinism? You of course. That seems to be your pet word. Again you did not answer my question, so here it is again.

Who regenerates you, God OR do you do it yourself with the aid of your priesthood?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Who gets the credit when you understand and accept teachings about God, Jesus, and the gospel?.

God.

You and I are a perfect example of this. You and I both have a reasonable familiarity with the Bible, yet we have come to complete opposite conclusions to what the exact same words state. Why is that do you think?

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Jeff you can study and study and study but you will not see unless you are born again. When (or if in your case) you are regenerated you will see the truth. Regeneration is a work of God.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Who said anything about Calvinism? You of course.

---That's probably because you don't want to admit what your beliefs are, or where you learned them. Prove me wrong and tell me that you REJECT the TULIP's 5 points. And tell me that you didn't learn your current beliefs from some Calvinist Evangelicals. I am calling your bluff, and I should have done so long ago.

Who regenerates you, God OR do you do it yourself with the aid of your priesthood?

---God, of course, but it's irrelevant to what we were discussing.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---That's probably because you don't want to admit what your beliefs are, or where you learned them.

My beliefs are taken straight from the Bible, that is where I learned them and that is the standard that I hold for each belief.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

My beliefs are taken straight from the Bible, that is where I learned them and that is the standard that I hold for each belief.

---Well, thanks for letting that much trickle out, but are you seriously claiming that you just read the Bible, with ZERO input from any Evangelicals, and voila, you ended up with your current beliefs? And what about my other question--do you really reject all 5 points of TULIP? Do you think I am really that gullible?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Well, thanks for letting that much trickle out, but are you seriously claiming that you just read the Bible, with ZERO input from any Evangelicals, and voila, you ended up with your current beliefs? And what about my other question--do you really reject all 5 points of TULIP? Do you think I am really that gullible?

You sure seem hung up on Calvinism. Why is that ?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You sure seem hung up on Calvinism. Why is that ?

---Besides the fact that it's an insult to God? Not much. Why do YOU seem so hung up on not admitting whether or not you subscribe to it? Does it embarr*** you that much? Then why not renounce it and come back to correct theology and soteriology? What does God think of your perpetual fence-sitting? Why not take a stand, either FOR TULIP, or AGAINST it? Are you afraid of the scorn that MEN will pour out on you if you come out of the closet?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

------Besides the fact that it's an insult to God? Not much. Why do YOU seem so hung up on not admitting whether or not you subscribe to it?

Jeff, you really don't get it--do you? You seem to want to pigeon hole Christians into taking their ideas and theology from extra-Biblical sources and/or their pastors and leaders. Do you think that it is impossible for a person to take his beliefs from scripture alone? If so why do you believe that?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff, you really don't get it--do you?

---How can I get something that is like pulling teeth to get out of you? Why are you so afraid to actually TELL US WHAT YOUR BELIEFS ARE on the relevant issues--theology, Christology, and soteriology? FJD isn't scared to admit what HE is. Maybe you can take some courage from his example and just come out of that closet. Or maybe not. We will see.

You seem to want to pigeon hole Christians into taking their ideas and theology from extra-Biblical sources and/or their pastors and leaders.

--Well, gee, let's see: The LUTHERANS seem to have been influenced by....LUTHER. The Methodists by Wesley. The Augustinians and about 90% of today's Christians by...AUGUSTINE. See a pattern developing? No? Get the blinders off then.

Do you think that it is impossible for a person to take his beliefs from scripture alone?

---No, I don't think it's impossible. I just don't believe that YOU did it. I think such learning-in-a-total-vacuum is extremely rare these days. I don't see how you could even come close to Vincenzo Di Francesca's experience, where he found a cover-less BOM in a trash can and became converted to its teachings ONLY though his own reading of the book--no outside "exegeters," commentaries, or systematic theologies.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...004d82620aRCRD

Still waiting for you to quit playing "In the closet" regarding what you believe. Sheesh, you're not doing a stellar *** of teaching others what you believe, like missionaries of various faiths are supposed to do. I know, from decades of experience including my own mission, that it's not always easy, or pleasant, or comfortable telling others what one's beliefs are. And it's more fun to play Sniper and shoot at others from a hidden position of safety. But you lose credibility every time you have a chance to share but choose not to.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

et out of you? Why are you so afraid to actually TELL US WHAT YOUR BELIEFS ARE on the relevant issues--theology, Christology, and soteriology?

Actually you do know what I believe at least in part if you have read my posts.

One God who was NOT a man who lived on another planet who lived and died and then worked his way up to become a god. A God who was not married to multiple wives and had sex to produce spiritual babies. A God who has been God from everlasting to everlasting as God. I believe in salvation by faith and not by works. I believe that the LDS temple is a man made en***y and the rituals a mockery to God. I don't believe in polygamy. I don't believe in ***hing for the NT church. I believe that people were elected before the foundation of the world.

What other specific questions do you have for me?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Simple: The God of Evanism hasn't deigned to bestow any of that capriciously applied GRACE on me yet. So there's my excuse! Cool, huh?

Hey, jeff! Paul had YOU in mind when he wrote the following:

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


But jeff says, YES! There IS unrighteousness with the Biblical GOD!!


Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whom I will have comp***ion.


Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.


Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

[nrajeff]

I don't find fault with GOD, I find it with your eisegesis of His words.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

I don't find fault with GOD, I find it with your eisegesis of His words.

Well then, jeff...just show me how I "eisegeted" the p***ages, 'k? I think they're more than clear...the TRUTH is you don't like them because they can't be contorted to agree with Mormon doctrine.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

There are other gods, yes. Of course.
http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cg...t=lts_fac_pubs

Thanks.

Just none like Him as he says:
1. Possessing the characteristics of; resembling closely; similar to.

1. In the typical manner of: It's not like you to take offense.
2. In the same way as: lived like royalty.
3. Inclined or disposed to: felt like running away.
4. As if the probability exists for: looks like a bad year for farmers.
5. Such as; for example: saved things like old newspapers and pieces of string.

adj.

1. Possessing the same or almost the same characteristics; similar: on this and like occasions.
2. Alike: They are as like as two siblings.
3. Having equivalent value or quality. Usually used in negative sentences: There's nothing like a good night's sleep.

n.

1. One similar to or like another. Used with the: was subject to coughs, asthma, and the like.
2. Informal. An equivalent or similar person or thing; an equal or match. Often used in the plural: I've never seen the likes of this before. We'll never see his like again.

So if there are no other Gods LIKE him, what are these other Gods like?

Grace and peace,

MacG

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Hey, jeff! Paul had YOU in mind when he wrote the following:

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

---But my name is neither Jacob nor Esau...however it's nice if Paul was thinking of me. I am sure it was with fondness, and maybe some jealousy, too: "Dang, I wish I had mad debating skillz like that dude does..."

Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
But jeff says, YES! There IS unrighteousness with the Biblical GOD!!

--Really? I don't recall having said that God is unrighteous. Maybe I have Alzheimer's and don't realize it. Dang short-term memory...or maybe, just MAYBE, THIS is what's going on:

http://www.nerolarp.com/mythodea/mythodea_straw_man.jpg

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whom I will have comp***ion.

---You better let your buddies know about this verse, because some of them are already saying that God won't have any mercy OR comp***ion on those evil old Mormons if they don't convert over to CLDS before death do us part. Apparently the Bible begs to differ with the contras.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---But my name is neither Jacob nor Esau...however it's nice if Paul was thinking of me. I am sure it was with fondness, and maybe some jealousy, too: "Dang, I wish I had mad debating skillz like that dude does..."

Are you deliberately MISSING the point, jeff?? That God ELECTS some but NOT all? That He elected Jacob but NOT Esau??? And you know full well I was referring to Paul's castigation of those WHO DENY GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY IN ELECTION...and you're one of them, jeff.

--Really? I don't recall having said that God is unrighteous. Maybe I have Alzheimer's and don't realize it. Dang short-term memory...or maybe, just MAYBE, THIS is what's going on:

You are in FACT and DEED calling God unrighteous because He elects this or than one, and OTHERS (such as Pharoah) HE HARDENS. You fit Paul's criteria to a "T", jeff. I suggest you really take this seriously for a change, and read and re-read the whole chapter until you understand just how blasphemous you've been!

---You better let your buddies know about this verse, because some of them are already saying that God won't have any mercy OR comp***ion on those evil old Mormons if they don't convert over to CLDS before death do us part. Apparently the Bible begs to differ with the contras.

It's double-edged, jeff. Again, read the chapter.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Are you deliberately MISSING the point, jeff??

------There was no real point to miss.

That God ELECTS some but NOT all?

---Not the issue. The issue is WHY does He only elect some? You Calvinists have no sane answer to that question.

And you know full well I was referring to Paul's castigation of those WHO DENY GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY IN ELECTION...and you're one of them, jeff.

---Hey, if by that you mean that I deny that God is CAPRICIOUS in how He chooses His elect, then I am guilty as charged.

You are in FACT and DEED calling God unrighteous because He elects this or than one, and OTHERS (such as Pharoah) HE HARDENS.

--Actually, it's YOU who is calling Him unrighteous, since you deny that His criteria for choosing is fair. An unfair God is an unrighteous God. You lose the debate again.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD
Are you deliberately MISSING the point, jeff??

------There was no real point to miss.

The "point", jeff? It isn't the one who "runs after" or "wills it" (i.e. ELECTION) but GOD WHO SHOWS MERCY, jeff. That's the point you keep EVADING.


Quote:
That God ELECTS some but NOT all?

---Not the issue. The issue is WHY does He only elect some? You Calvinists have no sane answer to that question.

Is this an admittance that GOD INDEED ELECTS ONLY SOME?


Quote:
And you know full well I was referring to Paul's castigation of those WHO DENY GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY IN ELECTION...and you're one of them, jeff.

---Hey, if by that you mean that I deny that God is CAPRICIOUS in how He chooses His elect, then I am guilty as charged.

LOL. I DENY that God is CAPRICIOUS as well, jeff. He has His own REASONS, according to His own WILL, dude.


Quote:
You are in FACT and DEED calling God unrighteous because He elects this or than one, and OTHERS (such as Pharoah) HE HARDENS.

--Actually, it's YOU who is calling Him unrighteous, since you deny that His criteria for choosing is fair. An unfair God is an unrighteous God. You lose the debate again.

His criteria is necessarily FAIR, jeff. ALL deserve JUSTICE, but God decrees some will receive MERCY and NOT justice.

Let's say there are four people on death row, all guilty of murder in the 1st degree, all deserving of death. The governor (according to his own reasons not known to anyone) deigns to RELEASE one of the murderers but to keep the other three on death row.

The question: Is the governor UNFAIR or UNRIGHETEOUS because he pardoned one but not the others??

You just might start understanding this important BIBLICAL doctrine if you can start thinking CORRECTLY:

God owes NO ONE MERCY. God owes NO ONE GRACE, otherwise, it isn't mercy or grace!!

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

The "point", jeff? It isn't the one who "runs after" or "wills it" (i.e. ELECTION) but GOD WHO SHOWS MERCY, jeff. That's the point you keep EVADING.

---I am not evading that. I believe that God shows mercy, silly. The point YOU keep evading with your straw men is WHY He shows mercy to some and not to others. Of course, we all know why you have to run from that: In Calvinism, God has no recognizably coherent, fair, ethical explanation for His decisions. You can't say "Sure He has a reasonable system: He saves all the people who hear and accept the gospel while in this life, and He sends the rest to hel.l" You cant say that because, as we already showed, Calvinism's Sovereignty + Predestination mixture is a cart-before-horse deal, where it's NOT a case of "You did what was requried, ERGO you get to be saved"---instead, Calvinism goes "You got saved, THEREFORE you will accept Jesus & get baptized & believe in and understand the Trinity etc." THAT is the still-fatal flaw in Calvinistic theology and soteriology. THAT is what makes God into a capricious petty tyrant. It leaves you with a lame explanation for why God shows mercy to some but not others: "It's because God said so, that's why!" which the average parenting cl*** teacher would say is not a mature reason. Certainly not what a good parent would use to justify an unfair decision.

Is this an admittance that GOD INDEED ELECTS ONLY SOME?

----You are lost again if you think I said that He doesn't.

And you know full well I was referring to Paul's castigation of those WHO DENY GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY IN ELECTION...and you're one of them, jeff.

---LOL.

LOL. I DENY that God is CAPRICIOUS as well, jeff. He has His own REASONS, according to His own WILL, dude.

---Yeah, and you think His reason is "Because I said so, and you better not look into it too much or you'll go to hell!" Great parenting skills there.

You are in FACT and DEED calling God unrighteous because He elects this or than one

---Saying that God's system is a meritocracy isn't calling Him unrighteous, silly. JD, you REALLY need to come back to a sane explanation for God's decisions. Come back to the LDS. We do take prodigals back, you know.

and OTHERS (such as Pharoah) HE HARDENS

---I thought all you textual critics and exegesis experts decided that "God hardens some" can't really mean that, since it would make God the creator of evil. Didn't you guys decide that it's just an idiom, just poetic license? And that it REALLY means something other than what it seems to be saying?

Let's say there are four people on death row, all guilty of murder in the 1st degree, all deserving of death. The governor (according to his own reasons not known to anyone) deigns to RELEASE one of the murderers but to keep the other three on death row.

----That is a great ****ogy to the unfairness of Calvinism. You have my blessings to proceed.

The question: Is the governor UNFAIR or UNRIGHETEOUS because he pardoned one but not the others??

---Of COURSE he is. He is unrighteous BECAUSE his system is unfair. To treat one person different from another even though both did the same thing for the same reason, is patently unfair by definition. Any Ethics 101 student could tell you that. (Unless the student has fallen for Calvinism, in which case he might give you some nonsensical answer.)

Suppose you were a Jew in Nazi Germany or Poland, and the SS came by and lined all your children up against a wall and shot them. And then the SS gave you next-door neighbor's kids a p***, for no reason. I can see you saying "Well. THAT was fair to my children."

God owes NO ONE MERCY.

--Sure He does. He owes mercy to all those who deserve it for any number of reasons. Giving mercy to those who deserve it is what makes God a wise, fair, MERCIFUL God. YOUR God is merciless if He can't dispense mercy to the penitent, the retarded, the aborted and abused children, and to those like Mother Teresa and Ghandi who spend their lives doing good in the world at great personal sacrifice.

God owes NO ONE GRACE, otherwise, it isn't mercy or grace!!

---Wherever God DOES give out grace, He needs to do it on a fair basis. Otherwise, it's UNFAIR. Paul said "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Your version would have him saying "Sin abounded, and grace? Well, it abounded a little, because it only abounded in the case of the randomly chosen few."
Then there is 2 Corinthians 6:1--"We beseech you...receive not the grace of God in vain." And then there is ***us 2:11 nasb "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men." Seems like maybe God offers grace to all, not to just a randomly chosen few. Those who receive it in vain become the reason it did them no good, which makes the system FAIR. Your version has God not even OFFERING grace to most people, based on the lame "I won't even offer grace to many and the reason is because I said so." Lame.

[akaSeerone]

God's fairness is not decided by you....it is decided by God and the Bible says that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

Your argument reeks of man and is wrong.

Proverbs 14

11The house of the wicked shall be overthrown: but the tabernacle of the upright shall flourish.

12There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

AGAIN here is what Paul taught and it takes a God hating rebellious mind to twist it into what you said.

Romans 9

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whom I will have comp***ion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
How did you miss that no one deserves anything from God and it is by Grace we are saved and not of ourselves lest anyone should boast?

Andy