The Gift of Tongues

[Adelphos]

Adelphos:

Is it possible that Paul's declaration is dealing with something very specific as opposed to congregational speaking in tongues?

To be sure, it was specific, and it was congregational (both, not one or the other). This is the sense of the context of the p***age. If you think that "very specific" needs additional data than what is stated clearly in the context, then say what it is.

Actually, one cannot prove it was congregational (that is, everyone speaking in tongues at once). The context was specifically about individual prayer in tongues (which I demonstrated already in my post about prayer in tongues), not about corporate worship in tongues (which you have not proven the text is dealing with at all, but have merely DECLARED it so - which is not sound exegesis, btw).

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by Adelphos

Adelphos:

Actually, one cannot prove it was congregational (that is, everyone speaking in tongues at once). The context was specifically about individual prayer in tongues (which I demonstrated already in my post about prayer in tongues), not about corporate worship in tongues (which you have not proven the text is dealing with at all, but have merely DECLARED it so - which is not sound exegesis, btw).

I know it's been awhile, but, here goes...
The p***age in question is 1 Cor. 14:28, and it states "...in the church" and you don't think the context is clearly congregational?
TD

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

I know it's been awhile, but, here goes...
The p***age in question is 1 Cor. 14:28, and it states "...in the church" and you don't think the context is clearly congregational?
TD

It is so easy to dis-prove the ability to speak in tongues and give translation as is done in pentecoastal churches. I wonder why they still attempt to try it. However as 1 Cor; 14:28 reads, it should be done in a congregtional setting. It is verse 29, that every tongue prac***ioner runs from.

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

It is so easy to dis-prove the ability to speak in tongues and give translation as is done in pentecoastal churches. I wonder why they still attempt to try it. However as 1 Cor; 14:28 reads, it should be done in a congregtional setting. It is verse 29, that every tongue prac***ioner runs from.

You're absolutely right. Way back in the days when I was caught up in that hubub, no one dared to question it, much less judge it! (However, in 20 yrs I did hear it judged 2 times). People were more in fear than wisdom.
TD

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

You're absolutely right. Way back in the days when I was caught up in that hubub, no one dared to question it, much less judge it! (However, in 20 yrs I did hear it judged 2 times). People were more in fear than wisdom.
TD

Just one of many of life's lessons. Religion does that to us; we're only human. This is why we will keep searching, but never open the door to truth, it is just too painful.

[MichaellS]

A very gallant try to the both of you in picturesque WM fashion as far as receiving the baptism in the “Spirit” goes. But you would still be too late to convince me even before I received it. The truth stands easily, clearly self confirming lest you havn't done the necessary study. You can always change though you know. It’s always available for those who are “afar off” (Acts 2:39), meaning throughout time.

How is it you have taken on a carnal response in your journey? Did you not take the time to self "edify" with the gift?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

A very gallant try to the both of you in picturesque WM fashion as far as receiving the baptism in the “Spirit” goes. But you would still be too late to convince me even before I received it. The truth stands easily, clearly self confirming lest you havn't done the necessary study. You can always change though you know. It’s always available for those who are “afar off” (Acts 2:39), meaning throughout time.

How is it you have taken on a carnal response in your journey? Did you not take the time to self "edify" with the gift?

HUh, what?

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

HUh, what?

Well, I’ll tell ya. What I’m seeing is commentary revolving more around reproach for the gift than knowing how to adorn it out of faith. Tdidymas’ 20yr run sounds impressive till, ,

I’ll ask again, if you ever exercised the ability, did you take the time to self "edify" with the gift?

If you would rather not discuss any longer, Okay then.

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Well, I’ll tell ya. What I’m seeing is commentary revolving more around reproach for the gift than knowing how to adorn it out of faith. Tdidymas’ 20yr run sounds impressive till, ,

I’ll ask again, if you ever exercised the ability, did you take the time to self "edify" with the gift?

If you would rather not discuss any longer, Okay then.

What exactly do you mean? Can you explain in detail?
TD

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

What exactly do you mean? Can you explain in detail?
TD

Tdidymas, I find it hard to return the request under the weight of your involvement with the subject. I’m thinking you could answer that sufficiently enough as have others here.

So let’s start with a painfully obvious question; to what are you referring please?

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Tdidymas, I find it hard to return the request under the weight of your involvement with the subject. I’m thinking you could answer that sufficiently enough as have others here.

So let’s start with a painfully obvious question; to what are you referring please?

I don't get it. I thought you said you wanted to discuss it. My question is in ref to your question: "did you take the time to self "edify" with the gift?" I'm just asking you what do you mean. This is a vague question. Can you explain to me the details of what you are talking about? What do you mean by "self 'edify'"?
TD

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

What do you mean by "self 'edify'"? TD

Hello tdidymas,

“One who speaks in a tongue edifies [builds up] himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.” (1 Corinthians 14:4)

Though I realize the preferred benefit of prophesy for the body, could it not be the gentle persuasion for the mind to lessen the singular use to edification, seeing that preferred “rather” (1 Cor.14:5, 1 Cor.14:1) to prophesy in place twice? There is nothing to indicate either requirement nor devaluing of the gift for the individual’s private use. Again, since we are exhorted to “desire spiritual gifts” (V1), nowhere are we told to run cool on private edification.

The overwhelming occasion is to highlight the noted preference to the whole, but where in comment is the highlighting benefit to the individual in private to God? In use, and I mean “patience of the saints” daily use and unyielding pattern to investigate this element, would be the end result of building oneself up. Yes, his understanding is unfruitful. But I think that is the whole point. If you build up (edify) without understand yet directly in the Spirit, then God gets the glory when you begin to exhaust that ability He the Spirit brings to urge.

I have some premonition that you could add to this, and not so much disagree. Could I be right?

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Hello tdidymas,

“One who speaks in a tongue edifies [builds up] himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.” (1 Corinthians 14:4)

Though I realize the preferred benefit of prophesy for the body, could it not be the gentle persuasion for the mind to lessen the singular use to edification, seeing that preferred “rather” (1 Cor.14:5, 1 Cor.14:1) to prophesy in place twice? There is nothing to indicate either requirement nor devaluing of the gift for the individual’s private use. Again, since we are exhorted to “desire spiritual gifts” (V1), nowhere are we told to run cool on private edification.

The overwhelming occasion is to highlight the noted preference to the whole, but where in comment is the highlighting benefit to the individual in private to God? In use, and I mean “patience of the saints” daily use and unyielding pattern to investigate this element, would be the end result of building oneself up. Yes, his understanding is unfruitful. But I think that is the whole point. If you build up (edify) without understand yet directly in the Spirit, then God gets the glory when you begin to exhaust that ability He the Spirit brings to urge.

I have some premonition that you could add to this, and not so much disagree. Could I be right?

Your argument appears to be right in theory, except for one statement you appear reversed from what I would see as a logical argument:

In use, and I mean “patience of the saints” daily use and unyielding pattern to investigate this element, would be the end result of building oneself up.

It seems to me that edification should be (in theory) the result of daily usage and "unyielding pattern to investigate this element." Yet your argument is reversed of this. Why is this? If you are trying to say that "building oneself up" is the activity leading toward the result of edification, then your argument doesn't follow either, since those two items is the activity itself. So your argument appears circular. Like saying "the activity of self-edification results in self-edification."

So then, let me be more specific in my question:
How exactly are you edified? What is your tongue-talking doing for you? What is the fruit of it?
TD

[RealFakeHair]

I think it is important to remember what a gift is. I'd take any gift God of the Holy Bible gives me. Although I'd probability not use it to the best of my ability. I could only wish Christians used God's gifts to better serve Him.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

Your argument appears to be right in theory, except for one statement you appear reversed from what I would see as a logical argument:

It seems to me that edification should be (in theory) the result of daily usage and "unyielding pattern to investigate this element." Yet your argument is reversed of this. Why is this? If you are trying to say that "building oneself up" is the activity leading toward the result of edification, then your argument doesn't follow either, since those two items is the activity itself. So your argument appears circular. Like saying "the activity of self-edification results in self-edification."

So then, let me be more specific in my question:
How exactly are you edified? What is your tongue-talking doing for you? What is the fruit of it?
TD

Thank you for the correction. Would this correct the spirit of the message? “would be a sound decision for building oneself up.”

What is it doing for me? I would have to forward that question to the Lord’s own reasoning. How am I to know what He would cl***ify as unprepared territory to bless if I wasn't involved with the gift? If overly concerned with what you will wind up with, keep in mind that p***age in Luke.

9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10“For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. 11“Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?” (Luke 11:9-13)

It would be difficult to separate the gift from the Giver.

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Thank you for the correction. Would this correct the spirit of the message? “would be a sound decision for building oneself up.”

Regarding this, I used to think that experimentation (I take it this is what you are describing in "unyielding pattern to investigate this element") with "this element" was the right thing to do. But later I found out that the soundest decision for building up oneself is to study the Word. It tells me that it is the fruit of an action that is the measurement of its godliness.

What is it doing for me? I would have to forward that question to the Lord’s own reasoning. How am I to know what He would cl***ify as unprepared territory to bless if I wasn't involved with the gift? If overly concerned with what you will wind up with, keep in mind that p***age in Luke.

This looks like an evasion. I'm just trying to find out how exactly you are defining self-edification as a result of the exercise of tongues. Are you trying to tell me that your self-edification is an intangible unknown to you?

9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10“For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. 11“Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?” (Luke 11:9-13)

It would be difficult to separate the gift from the Giver.

Again, I believe the Bible is telling me to measure a gift by its fruit. If you cannot give me some tangible way of discerning the fruit of your tongue-talking, then how am I to know where your gift came from? Does not the scripture say "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge"?

The trouble with most Pentecostals I talk to is that they run away when their actions are called into evaluation. I hope you won't do the same.
TD

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

This looks like an evasion.

Really? You want me to begin to exalt by unlawful speech the measure of what the flesh has seen? Not interested in painting myself with that. Now there is something to show concern over. Yes, it’s true, God is “a rewarder” (Hebrews 11:6), and if God is a rewarder, why is it you think this is still some making of my own devise? Something I determine?

Does not the scripture say "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge"?

Sure it does. A detailed list for it’s use in and for the Church, and another for it’s use in private and for unbelieving. But I now wonder as to how much you have been made aware of these things? They are rather fundamental items you are requesting from me.

I would like to continue if you will

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Really? You want me to begin to exalt by unlawful speech the measure of what the flesh has seen? Not interested in painting myself with that. Now there is something to show concern over. Yes, it’s true, God is “a rewarder” (Hebrews 11:6), and if God is a rewarder, why is it you think this is still some making of my own devise? Something I determine?



Sure it does. A detailed list for it’s use in and for the Church, and another for it’s use in private and for unbelieving. But I now wonder as to how much you have been made aware of these things? They are rather fundamental items you are requesting from me.

I would like to continue if you will

Yet more evasion, since you have not answered my simple question of what even you call "fundamental items." If I am requesting fundamental items, then why can't you explain it?

In regard to your accusation that I want you to "exalt by unlawful speech the measure of what the flesh has seen" - I think you better cite the scripture reference that applies to my question, otherwise you are bearing false witness against your neighbor, since you have the audacity to judge my intention.

I am asking simple questions with the purpose of discerning where your gift is coming from. If you refuse to answer, then I must conclude that your gift is illegitimate. Are you afraid to answer?

How is your tongue-talking edifying you? Please explain in detail.
TD

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by MichaellS: "I would like to continue if you will"

Are you still contemplating the answer?
(Key word is fruit)

While you're thinking about it, here's another like-minded question for you:

2. How is your tongue-talking edifying others? Please explain in detail.
TD

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

Are you still contemplating the answer?
(Key word is fruit)

Hello Tdidymas,

I see your point, since you and I already know this answer as plain as the summer day is long, make sure any weaker brother is edified to the end from this knowledge and not left in a dangerous state of confusion with something startling to the conscience. But it must be a simple answer and down to earth. Excellent!

Okay then. Dear reader, since God showed me the edges of that unspeakable gift without functioning in it after my own conversion back in 1975 and how troubled my mind was by it, , I was aware that it was something unfamiliar and unrelated to my own capability. Yes, I was troubled by it as you too even might be now.

So, to present you with the answer to the above question:

“[H]ow exactly you are defining self-edification as a result of the exercise of tongues.”

Peace, over the gift. Within the whole realm of what it is God does on our behalf, this one thing I know; a tremendous peace upholds me throughout the course of this activity that he showed me I was earlier in the very near state of losing my mind over, or something close to it (I wasn’t just a little worried), had it not been for a season of a few months of private edification preceding what the Holy Spirit had for me, thanks be to God. That would be the “fruit” our friend Tdidymas speaks of. Astounding peace, surrounding an unnatural ability.

What is the exact feeling then during this process? Well, keep in mind the above peace permeated while I was fully conscious to such an end that for lack of a better (already mentioned) word, 2-fold entertainment from above, by God, and below, people on earth.

Originally Posted by tdidymas

2. How is your tongue-talking edifying others? Please explain in detail.
TD

Here again the word is clear. But Tdidymas must have missed the text’s presentation of this activity. Does he mean my private edification, or my Church use of this gift?

[RealFakeHair]

Some folks here either go to bed late or get up early!

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

the edges of that unspeakable gift
2-fold entertainment from above, by God, and below, people on earth.

Your descriptions here appear vague. I get that you feel peace whenever you use it. But what is this? What "edges" are you talking about? What is this "2-fold entertainment" you are talking about?

The apostles wrote in Koine Greek, which was common language at the time, so that it could be understood by anyone. Sorry to add more requirements to my question, but isn't this a reasonable request, to ask for language that can be understood by the "run-of-the-mill" Christian?

Does he mean my private edification, or my Church use of this gift?

OK, so how about both?
TD

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

Your descriptions here appear vague. I get that you feel peace whenever you use it. But what is this? What "edges" are you talking about? What is this "2-fold entertainment" you are talking about?

The apostles wrote in Koine Greek, which was common language at the time, so that it could be understood by anyone. Sorry to add more requirements to my question, but isn't this a reasonable request, to ask for language that can be understood by the "run-of-the-mill" Christian?


OK, so how about both?
TD

Tdidymas, This line of questioning you have going on here, uh, may I make a suggestion? Rather than showing discontentedness towards me, why not do as the Apostle suggested, and leave the precautions in God’s capable hands?

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (I Jn 4:1)

That is, what He will reveal to you and how it stacks up according to His word. What He will do when we put those investigative efforts into the things of God.

The resources to search these things out are vast these days including this subject, though I dislike the sometimes skew-effect of cross-reference and concordance that shows itself from time to time, be that digital or hard copy. Eventually, even those so-called exhaustive bound works can limit a search. But that is another subject.

Surely, you have heard:

4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

Then what do people do with Paul’s apparent dividing of faith and baptism?:

1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul p***ed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7There were in all about twelve men. (Acts 19:1-7)

What should they believe, or better yet do. They should know it is still one baptism of Spirit working what? Just as the scriptures declare, rewarding gifts:

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (1 Corinthians 12:11)

I’m not asking anyone to change their place of worship except for those who’s policy doesn’t fit God’s will. But make a few contacts to search this out. The larger ones who do not resist this would be best.

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Tdidymas, This line of questioning you have going on here, uh, may I make a suggestion? Rather than showing discontentedness towards me, why not do as the Apostle suggested, and leave the precautions in God’s capable hands?

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (I Jn 4:1)

That is, what He will reveal to you and how it stacks up according to His word. What He will do when we put those investigative efforts into the things of God.

The resources to search these things out are vast these days including this subject, though I dislike the sometimes skew-effect of cross-reference and concordance that shows itself from time to time, be that digital or hard copy. Eventually, even those so-called exhaustive bound works can limit a search. But that is another subject.

Surely, you have heard:

4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

Then what do people do with Paul’s apparent dividing of faith and baptism?:

1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul p***ed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7There were in all about twelve men. (Acts 19:1-7)

What should they believe, or better yet do. They should know it is still one baptism of Spirit working what? Just as the scriptures declare, rewarding gifts:

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (1 Corinthians 12:11)

I’m not asking anyone to change their place of worship except for those who’s policy doesn’t fit God’s will. But make a few contacts to search this out. The larger ones who do not resist this would be best.

Yet more evasion.
TD

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by tdidymas

Yet more evasion.
TD

Are you led of God, or fully self willed?