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Thread: The Gift of Tongues

  1. #26
    Trinitas
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    We are given a promise from the Father... the promise of the Holy Spirit. But that's where it ends. There is nothing in this "promise", or in any verse in the entire Bible, that says we ALL speak in tongues as "proof" of our having received that promise”! Nope... not a single verse in the Bible supports the absurd false "doctrine" of Pentecostalists that ALL will speak in tongues as the "initial evidence" of anything.

    Your "doctrine of witnesses" is about as funny as your belief in "initial evidence" of tongues! If you want to resort to this trite argument, I will just throw it right back in your face: I have as many Biblical "witnesses" that refute your false "doctrine" as you have "witnesses" to support it. There are three times in the Bible that individuals speak in tongues upon receiving the Holy Spirit (the 12 apostles on the Day of Pentecost; Cornelius and group in Acts 10; and John's disciples in Acts 19) and there are three times that it doesn't happen (later in Acts 2 when the 3,000 are added; in Acts 8 with the Samaritans; and in Acts 9 when Paul receives the Holy Spirit). So, my "witnesses" cancel out your "witnesses"... Got anything better? Naw… didn’t think so!

    I don’t give a hoot about your so called "scholars"... I care about what the Bible says, and there is not a word in the Bible about the Samaritans speaking in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit. So don't bore me with your meaningless "context". This event happens smack dab in the middle of an 11 year "drought" where there is not a single mention of tongues in the Book of Acts! “Context”… what rubbish! There is NO “context” to be had, since we haven’t seen a case of tongues in almost 7 chapters! So you have no "context"; you have no "paradigm"... what you got is a bunch of NOTHING, a bunch of uneducated Pentecostal "ministers" making up some fool "doctrine" that the Bible never teaches. That's all you got. NOTHING!

    Say anything you want... I think you're dead wrong, and the Bible proves it. You can't point to a single verse that supports your false beliefs about tongues. No one ever taught such a stupid "doctrine" before January 1, 1901 when a bunch of illiterate Bible "students" dreamed it up as a homework ***ignment. And the student who first spoke in tongues, Agnes Ozman, later recanted. Yep... you got a bunch of wishful thinking, but you haven't got support from the Bible.

    You’re getting messed up like always... I believe that tongues exist today! I have no reason to believe that the GIFT of tongues ceased operation. There's nothing in the Bible to support such a view. But what doesn't exist... what NEVER existed... is the Pentecostal rubbish about "initial evidence" of tongues.

    Mark says tongues is a "sign", but Mark also lists a bunch of other similar "signs". Do ALL of those "signs" follow ALL believers? Of course not! So you can't argue one sign (tongues) does, when you can't prove it to be true about all of the "signs" listed in Mark. So give it up... Mark does nothing to support the Pentecostalists’ false "doctrine" of "initial evidence" of tongues.

    I Corinthians does say all are baptized with the same Spirit, but that same book also says that NOT all will speak in tongues, so there is no support for any "universal evidence" or that tongues IS that "evidence". More defeat from the Bible, huh?

    Paul made the statement about speaking in tongues in the middle of his discussion about the GIFT of tongues. Paul also says in I Corinthians 12:30 that he doesn't believe all will speak in tongues! So, there's no proof that Paul began speaking in tongues in Acts 9 when he received the Holy Spirit. And, in fact, the Bible shows that he DIDN'T! No proof... just a bunch of useless opinions from another misguided Pentecostalists...

    Poor old backward Pentecostalists... so ignorant of Scripture that they have to make up false "signs" to bolster their weak, non-existent "faith". After all, that's what Paul says, doesn't he? Tongues are a "sign" for UNbelievers... guess that's just what the Pentecostalists are... UNbelievers...

  2. #27
    Trinitas
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    I don't need a "new song"... I got the Bible, Buck! I have proof in God's Word that your "doctrine" is a bunch of RUBBISH! What have you got? NOTHING!

    Once again... the only one speaking from "silence" here is you Pentecostalists... making up things that never happened and that the Bible doesn't support. While the Bible says nothing, you have to run around, make up what the Bible never says, all in order to support your false beliefs. That's the true "argument from silence". Silence is all Pentecostalsts have!

    Hey... is your "banning" up at CARM yet, Schmitty?
    Last edited by Trinitas; 04-23-2009 at 05:45 PM.

  3. #28
    John Carr
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    You don't follow the Bible sir, you reject One God and follow a trumped up trinity idea that has no support , save a lying Pope and false followers.

    Several people are show as the example for us baptized with the Holy Ghost, just like Jesus was being baptized in water as the initial person, then the Apostles and those they baptized .

    One must follow what the Bible says and shows, not what post writers say and people like yourself that have no such truth.

  4. #29
    Trinitas
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    If you think I "don't follow the Bible", then prove it! Show me the verse in the Bible that says ALL will speak in tongues as PROOF of their receiving the Holy Spirit. It's really that "simple"... prove it by quoting the Bible, or admit that your "doctrine" is false and unBiblical.

    Sorry... your pointless Oneness "propaganda" is a waste of time... and a waste of your breath. I do not "reject" One God... All Trinitarians believe in ONE GOD! If you say otherwise, you're bearing false witness. I have never met a Trinitarian who believed in "three gods"... that's a LIE that Oneness propagate... but that's all it is... A LIE.

    There are several examples where people speak in tongues as part of their receiving the Holy Spirit... but there are as many others that do NOT speak in tongues. So three for, and three against... and not a single verse in the entire Bible that says ALL will speak in tongues as the definitive "proof" of Spirit baptism. So, until you show me that verse, I will NOT believe the Pentecostalists' false teachings about tongues. I will believe the Bible. I will follow the Bible and the Bible doesn't say anything in support of your false "doctrine" of "initial evidence" of tongues. The one who has no truth is YOU... you're the one who rejects the teachings of Scripture over the man-made LIES of Oneness...

    Sorry, RJC, but that's just the way it is...

  5. #30
    PostTribber
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    Default oh, now I get it!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckGardner View Post
    ALL MUST AND WILL SPEAK IN TONGUES IF SAVED, if not, a person is a pretender and liar.
    You will be lost and split hell wide open and eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire for not being saved and speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.
    you must have the King Buck Version.

  6. #31
    jean
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckGardner View Post
    We speak in tongues as led by our Lord. He and he alone gives us his Spirit and wemay get it as the finishing act of his work or before we finish what we have been commanded as seen in ACTS 8,10 AND 19.

    ALL MUST AND WILL SPEAK IN TONGUES IF SAVED, if not, a person is a pretender and liar.
    You will be lost and split hell wide open and eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire for not being saved and speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.

    1 CO. 12:30 This is speaking of a Gift of The Spirit which God gives severally (singularly) as he wills and is not the Spirit baptism promised and given to all and in the same way of speaking in tongues 1 CO. 12;13, MARK 16:16, ACTS 2:38-39
    read those and don't just skirt them.
    buck,
    I think yoir confused about the question I asked.
    If you believe all must speak in tongues to be saved, what scripture can you provide?

    I know folks speak in tongues, If they do they are already saved. The Lord doesn't give His gifts to unbelievers.
    Read Acts 2, 10 and 19 these christians accepted the message first, then they received the gift. Read Acts 2;38 They believed, Acts 4;4 They believed.
    Eph 2:8-9 We are saved by grace, through faith. It is the gift of God.

    God bless,
    p2, jean
    Last edited by jean; 05-11-2009 at 11:45 PM. Reason: typo

  7. #32
    jean
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    Quote Originally Posted by Non-trinnie View Post
    Wait a minute here, this question was asked the same way over on carm. I dont think it was asked by jean, but I might be mistaken. If it wasnt then jean is someone else over on carm.
    Have you answered the question yet?

    God bless,
    jean

  8. #33
    jeanmarie
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckGardner View Post
    Get a new song, you are wearing this out and cannot prove anyone ever got Baptized with the Holy Ghost with NOTHING!

    You wish to speak from the evidence from silence, we speak what we know and what we see and that is the doctrine of witnesses that make up a doctrine and that refute you here.

    ALL ARE TO BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, you Catholic mongrels are not and nor is the Protestants who pretend they are.
    buck,
    Are you judging other christians again?
    See Mt.7:1-5 It will tell you why you shoudn't.
    All christians are baptized by the Holy Spirit at the moment of their faith. 'No one can Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.' Are you aware of this?
    It's called being Born Again. John.3:5 God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever beleives in him shall not perish but have eternal life." This includes you. However, you must stop judging others. The reason being, you will be jugded with the same measure that you use on others. Please read this in Mt:7:1-5
    God shows no favoritism.

    God bless ,
    jean

    PS. there are many other christians that speak in tongues . they can be found in many christian churches. I'm one of them.

  9. #34
    jeanmarie
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckGardner View Post
    We speak in tongues as led by our Lord. He and he alone gives us his Spirit and wemay get it as the finishing act of his work or before we finish what we have been commanded as seen in ACTS 8,10 AND 19.

    ALL MUST AND WILL SPEAK IN TONGUES IF SAVED, if not, a person is a pretender and liar.
    You will be lost and split hell wide open and eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire for not being saved and speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.

    1 CO. 12:30 This is speaking of a Gift of The Spirit which God gives severally (singularly) as he wills and is not the Spirit baptism promised and given to all and in the same way of speaking in tongues 1 CO. 12;13, MARK 16:16, ACTS 2:38-39
    read those and don't just skirt them.

    buck,
    Did Jesus do anything to ***ure you of salvation, or did you save yourself
    by speaking in tongues?
    There isn't one p***age in the Bible that reads 'you must speak in tongues to be saved. A person is already saved if he speaks in tongues. See Eph.2;8-9 ***us 4-5
    Were you saved before or after you spoke in tongues? If you weren't saved before, then the tongues you speak aren't from the Lord. Think about it.
    God doesn't give his gifts to unbelievers, does he?

    God bless you,
    jean

  10. #35
    jeanmarie
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    Quote Originally Posted by kentuckypreacher View Post
    I would be glad to affirm that NO ONE is "speaking in tongues" today.
    hello kentucky preacher,

    Are you referring to glossolalia or real languages?
    Many churches today believe in the charismatic gifts. Oneness Pentecostals seem to go to extremes. This is the main topic of debate. Oneness do love the Lord. They spend a lot of time seeking gifts. The Bible teaches we are freely given gifts. it also reads we have different gifts. 1Cor.12;30

    God bless,
    jean

  11. #36
    jeanmarie
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckGardner View Post
    Get a new song, you are wearing this out and cannot prove anyone ever got Baptized with the Holy Ghost with NOTHING!

    You wish to speak from the evidence from silence, we speak what we know and what we see and that is the doctrine of witnesses that make up a doctrine and that refute you here.

    ALL ARE TO BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, you Catholic mongrels are not and nor is the Protestants who pretend they are.
    buck,
    See mt.7:1-5.

    Tell me what you see there?

    jeanmarie

  12. #37
    famousbum
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    Either the Bible is wrong or the upc is wrong. The Bible is not wrong.
    My friends at Biola have torn the upc "proofs" to shreds by using the Greek and Hebrew. But you won't have any upcs asking for the details. At least not sincerely asking.
    Y

  13. #38
    kentuckypreacher
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    And, Buck, YOU ARE NOT BAPTIZED in the Holy Ghost either.

    Case closed.

  14. #39
    JE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kat View Post
    Faith without works is dead.... If Gods word says to Repent<--- we need to repent ...If it says we need to be filled with Gods spirit <---is that so hard to do.....If it says we need to be baptized in the name of Jesus....<----Do It
    Because we need to be sure then regret it later on

    God bless Sister Kat
    The idea of "faith without works" comes from James 2. Kat, if you read James 2, especially verses 14-26, you will see that the works it is referring to are not works toward salvation, but works toward other people, namely loving your neighbor as yourself. So using the faith without works argument as proof that you have to repent or be baptized or speak in another tongue is not using this scripture in context.

  15. #40
    kentuckypreacher
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    I'm talking about "tongues" as they are described and defined in the New Testament. NO ONE IS SPEAKING WITH OTHER TONGUES today. So of the "tongues advocates" have enough trouble with English.

  16. #41
    jyajoe
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    I just wonder, but cannot prove it or prove against it but I feel that GOD and satan had a counsel meeting as they did in the day of ***. satan "ASKED" God if he could put one word in the Bible. And of the whole Bible that one word would deceive ALL of Jesus Christs teachings. And would bring his church against him. That word was UNKNOWN italicized before the word tongues in the Bible.

  17. #42
    Jean Chauvin
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    Hello,

    I know a little German. So yes I do speak in tongues.

    Your understanding of tongues is UnBiblical. And tongues and prophesy, they have ceased (I Corinthians 13:8).

    I know Walter was a pentecostal of sorts. That's fine. He use to refer in p***ing to the Montonists (he never mentioned their name though) as people in Church history still doing tongues.

    But since I Cor was written in 56 AD. and since the council of God was not complete in writ yet (see Acts 20:27, I Cor 13:10), then tongues were needed as a means of revelation.

    But since we have all our revelation, then the gifts of revelation are no longer needed.

    And those who spoke tongues, did so via a language that was interpreted. An earthly language for the sake of understanding.

    But I don't usually discuss this issue with Oneness folks. They have bigger problems to fry.

    Their god is one that looks in a mirror and talks to himself. Jesus prays to himself, thus being somewhat schizophrenic.

    It's like what about Bob,

    PHP Code:
    "Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic, and so am I." 
    So, I like talking about that more then Tongues. And it's more comical to talk about their Jesus.

    Respectfully,

    Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

  18. #43
    Administrator Jill's Avatar
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    The gifts did not cease...why should the church today be any different or have any less power than the early church? Church History shows us that the gifts were talked about and used for centuries--remember Martin Luther? "The spirit and the gifts are ours through him who with us sideth." This isn't something we should fight about, though. Some will believe and some will not.

    I know they exist today because I've experienced them, and I cannot deny the power of God. My father also experienced them, and they changed his life. Many other Christians can testify to this, so...sorry, I strongly disagree with the very weak argument that we have no need of the gifts today. As for interpreting tongues, yes, it is true that many have interpreted a foreign language that they never learned--but there is also the verse that says, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels..." so there you go--Paul said it was possible to speak in the language of the angels, too. Why? Think on that one for a bit.

    Jean, you might also want to pray about the last part of that verse, "and have not love, I am nothing." Love does not mock other people's thoughts or feelings. "Love is patient and kind..."
    1 Corinthians 13
    How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God. 1 John 3:1

  19. #44
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jill View Post
    The gifts did not cease...why should the church today be any different or have any less power than the early church? Church History shows us that the gifts were talked about and used for centuries--remember Martin Luther? "The spirit and the gifts are ours through him who with us sideth." This isn't something we should fight about, though. Some will believe and some will not.

    I know they exist today because I've experienced them, and I cannot deny the power of God. My father also experienced them, and they changed his life. Many other Christians can testify to this, so...sorry, I strongly disagree with the very weak argument that we have no need of the gifts today. As for interpreting tongues, yes, it is true that many have interpreted a foreign language that they never learned--but there is also the verse that says, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels..." so there you go--Paul said it was possible to speak in the language of the angels, too. Why? Think on that one for a bit.

    Jean, you might also want to pray about the last part of that verse, "and have not love, I am nothing." Love does not mock other people's thoughts or feelings. "Love is patient and kind..."
    1 Corinthians 13
    Jean seems to have given up on us. However the next 2 verses past his reference helps out here:
    8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will p*** away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

    If what Jean and Harold Camping say is true then we ought to read verse 10 "but when completeness comes" as "but when the canon is complete" for the full reading like this:

    ? 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will p*** away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the canon is complete, what is in part disappears. ?

    The follow up verses put even more light on the subject.

    "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. "

    Who now knows fully? Who sees the real and not the reflection? Too bad for Paul he never saw the full canon

    MacG
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  20. #45
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    Default Gift of Tongues

    So then, were the original questions answered? I saw some whirlwind of responses, but not much substance. One person answered the question "What happens if other christians don't receive this gift?" - split hell and be cast into the lake of fire. One person said "ALL" must do it. Well, in my understanding, this is what Oneness Pentecostals teach regarding tongues:

    1. Anyone and all who receive the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues
    2. If you haven't spoken in tongues, you don't have the Holy Spirit
    3. Anyone not having the Holy Spirit goes to hell
    4. No one can speak in tongues by the Holy Spirit prior to salvation
    5. A person who gets saved and speaks in tongues can be lost again

    I do not imply that any of this is Biblical teaching. Someone might ask why I wouldn't agree with #3, but not in the context of UPC teaching. I am not saying that Pentecostals are not authentic Christians. The criteria for evaluating someone's life is not by doctrine, but by lifestyle. Not to say that some doctrines are not essential to the Christian faith, but Jesus said "by their fruit you shall know them."

    It is unfortunate that many Christians do not properly interpret the scriptures. This is the reason why there are so many different denominations. It does not mean that Christ is divided (in reality), although it certainly appears so from a social point of view. However, as it goes, there are many who believe themselves to be Christian that will have a rude awakening in the day of judgment.

    In regard to the subject of tongues, I say that it is a stretch of the imagination to say that the common practice of speaking in tongues today measures up to the teaching about tongues in the NT. If anyone sincerely wants to know how I come up with this conclusion, I would be happy to explain it, and show by which hermeneutical principles I am interpreting the scripture. I am not one to give an opinion without having extensive study as well as experience in the matter.

    I am not saying that my opinion here is worth much, as compared to the opinion of Christ and the apostles. I am only trying to say that I make every effort that my opinion does not deviate from the writers of the NT. In addition, I have experience with this subject, in which God has corrected me because I was boldly erring in it. I am willing to explain this if anyone wants to know.

    Let me know if this thread needs to be under a different category, if it does not fall under "Oneness Pentecostalism".

  21. #46
    Adelphos
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    Quote Originally Posted by jean View Post
    Oneness folks.
    Did you speak in tongues before or after you were saved? Please include scripture.
    How do you interpret 1 Cor.12:30?
    Do you teach all must speak in tongues? If so, why?
    What happens if other christians don't receive this gift?

    God bless,
    p2
    Hello Jean,

    I do not belong to any Oneness group, but I would like to answer these points.

    *I spoke in tongues after conversion (Acts 19).

    *I could write an entire page in answer to this, let me not overwhelm those reading (in other words, if we had our own place to debate this thoroughly, I would write it completely). 1 Cor. 12:30 is dealing with the Gift of Speaking in Tongues, not with all kinds of speaking in tongues. The verse asks the question, "Do all speak in tongues?" The answer is no. However, it is addressing one kind of tongue. For example, if I were to ask "Do all have faith?" within the same chapter context, the answer would still be no. Why? Because there is a vast difference between saving faith and the gift of faith.

    *I teach that all believers who receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues (Acts 2, 8, 10, 19, and others)

    *Christians who do not receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit with tongues are still Christians.

    One question for you:

    When does one receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit according to the preponderance of Scriptural evidence? At conversion, at water baptism, or post conversion? Show Scriptures please

    Respectfully,

    Adelphos

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
    Hello Jean,

    I do not belong to any Oneness group, but I would like to answer these points.

    *I spoke in tongues after conversion (Acts 19).

    *I could write an entire page in answer to this, let me not overwhelm those reading (in other words, if we had our own place to debate this thoroughly, I would write it completely). 1 Cor. 12:30 is dealing with the Gift of Speaking in Tongues, not with all kinds of speaking in tongues. The verse asks the question, "Do all speak in tongues?" The answer is no. However, it is addressing one kind of tongue. For example, if I were to ask "Do all have faith?" within the same chapter context, the answer would still be no. Why? Because there is a vast difference between saving faith and the gift of faith.

    *I teach that all believers who receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues (Acts 2, 8, 10, 19, and others)

    *Christians who do not receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit with tongues are still Christians.

    One question for you:

    When does one receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit according to the preponderance of Scriptural evidence? At conversion, at water baptism, or post conversion? Show Scriptures please

    Respectfully,

    Adelphos
    Adelphos, according to 2 statements you make about all who receive the gift speak in tongues, and about those who don't are still Christians, are you suggesting that there are Christians who will go to heaven who do not have the gift?

    Are you suggesting that the "Gift of the Holy Spirit" is something different than the gift a believer who is given, the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of inheritance in the Kingdom (Eph. 1:13-14)?

    OK, so let me ***ume that you are not suggesting that a believer can go to heaven without the Holy Spirit!! (let me know if I am wrong here) (Rom. 8:9).

    ***uming we are on the same page here, then, in answer to your question "When does one receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit according to the preponderance of Scriptural evidence? At conversion, at water baptism, or post conversion?" My answer here is, it is not so cut-and-dry. There were times in the transitional period between the end of the old covenant and the start of the new covenant (overlapping period) when believers were believers prior to receiving the Spirit (as in Acts 2 and 8:15). However, later in the epistles, the apostles clearly teach that the Holy Spirit indwells all believers. Rom. 8:9, 1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 1:13; 2:18, 1 Jn. 2:20; 4:4,13.

    Obviously, these few verses might not be proof if they are taken out of context. You have to read them not only in their immediate context, but also in the context of the whole NT.

    There is a sense in which the NT teaches that all believers have the indwelling Spirit (Rom 8:15), but not necessarily filled to the fullness thereof (Eph. 5:18). The power of the Spirit given (as clearly miraculous events) in Acts was for the purpose of empowerment of the early church for evangelism, as well as authenticate the gospel as being from God. We experience (and observe) only a small taste of its likeness in today's church - when we are filled with the Spirit, we experience an anointing for ministry (such anointing is not a feeling one gets, but rather a supernatural power which causes other people to receive the Word). This is why the apostles exhort all Christians to be filled with the Spirit.

    So then, if you follow the logic of the scriptural teaching, then all believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit at conversion, and then later are empowered by infilling for service.
    TD
    Last edited by tdidymas; 09-16-2011 at 02:31 PM. Reason: clarification

  23. #48
    Adelphos
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    Adelphos, according to 2 statements you make about all who receive the gift speak in tongues, and about those who don't are still Christians, are you suggesting that there are Christians who will go to heaven who do not have the gift?
    From my perspective, true believers are justified by faith throughout Scripture, apart from receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit - especially since the Gift of the Holy Spirit was not available until the day of Pentecost.

    Are you suggesting that the "Gift of the Holy Spirit" is something different than the gift a believer who is given, the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of inheritance in the Kingdom (Eph. 1:13-14)?
    It appears that you have presented an interpretation of Ephesians that you have not exegeted for me. Please explain your position on that verse.

    OK, so let me ***ume that you are not suggesting that a believer can go to heaven without the Holy Spirit!! (let me know if I am wrong here) (Rom. 8:9).
    I believe Scripture teaches that believers are converted apart from receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

    ***uming we are on the same page here, then, in answer to your question "When does one receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit according to the preponderance of Scriptural evidence? At conversion, at water baptism, or post conversion?" My answer here is, it is not so cut-and-dry. There were times in the transitional period between the end of the old covenant and the start of the new covenant (overlapping period) when believers were believers prior to receiving the Spirit (as in Acts 2 and 8:15). However, later in the epistles, the apostles clearly teach that the Holy Spirit indwells all believers. Rom. 8:9, 1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 1:13; 2:18, 1 Jn. 2:20; 4:4,13.
    I understand what you are saying. From my perspective, the majority of Scripture was in a "transitional period." This, therefore, in and of itself, is not a reason to claim that there is not pure agreement, and consistency, between Acts and the Epistles. I think the burder of proof is on those who would use "transition" as a means of discontinuity between the two. My personal perspective is that "transitional period" is used as an excuse for theologians that struggle with the essential unity of Acts and the Epistles. Of course, it could be nothing more that an a priori mindset that refuses to allow for other possibilities. None the less, I think that Acts and the Epistles agree 100 percent in this regard, and when looked at as a composite whole will present a clear picture of post conversion reception of the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

    I will confess, this position is rarely taught, and both Oneness Pentecostals, and those who are not, will disagree vehemently against it. From my perspective (which of course could be wrong like anyone elses), the position I hold is the most consistent, though unpopular.

    Obviously, these few verses might not be proof if they are taken out of context. You have to read them not only in their immediate context, but also in the context of the whole NT.
    I have read each verse, and believe the way they are presented here, they are out of context, but I am sure we will discuss that some more later. Just as I am sure you will struggle with what I share as well.

    There is a sense in which the NT teaches that all believers have the indwelling Spirit (Rom 8:15), but not necessarily filled to the fullness thereof (Eph. 5:18).
    I believe that the Romans p***ages is one of the most mis-quoted verses on this topic out there, and I will share about that later.

    I see Ephesians 5:18 as a mere metaphor suggesting continual submission the the Holy Spirit that has been given to those who have already received the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

    So then, if you follow the logic of the scriptural teaching, then all believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit at conversion, and then later are empowered by infilling for service.
    I understand your position fully. It is probably close to the view I held for years. I hope we can dialog with love and respect on this matter.

    Respectfully

    Adelphos

  24. #49
    jeanmarie
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckGardner View Post
    Get a new song, you are wearing this out and cannot prove anyone ever got Baptized with the Holy Ghost with NOTHING!

    You wish to speak from the evidence from silence, we speak what we know and what we see and that is the doctrine of witnesses that make up a doctrine and that refute you here.

    ALL ARE TO BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, you Catholic mongrels are not and nor is the Protestants who pretend they are.
    buck,
    I am going to give you one of the scariest p***ages in the Bible. I hope you will remember it.
    "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of truth, no sacrifice for sins left."
    The reason I'm reminding you of this p***age is, you keep judging other Christians.
    We are told by Christ in Mt.7:1-2 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged
    .2. For the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use , it will be measured to you."
    We are commanded by Christ to love one another. See Mt 22:36-39

    God bless you as you read his word.
    jeanmarie

  25. #50
    jeanmarie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
    Hello Jean,

    I do not belong to any Oneness group, but I would like to answer these points.

    *I spoke in tongues after conversion (Acts 19).

    *I could write an entire page in answer to this, let me not overwhelm those reading (in other words, if we had our own place to debate this thoroughly, I would write it completely). 1 Cor. 12:30 is dealing with the Gift of Speaking in Tongues, not with all kinds of speaking in tongues. The verse asks the question, "Do all speak in tongues?" The answer is no. However, it is addressing one kind of tongue. For example, if I were to ask "Do all have faith?" within the same chapter context, the answer would still be no. Why? Because there is a vast difference between saving faith and the gift of faith.

    *I teach that all believers who receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues (Acts 2, 8, 10, 19, and others)

    *Christians who do not receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit with tongues are still Christians.

    One question for you:

    When does one receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit according to the preponderance of Scriptural evidence? At conversion, at water baptism, or post conversion? Show Scriptures please

    Respectfully,

    Adelphos
    My comment concerning the gift of tongues was aimed for our pentecostal friends.
    They teach, speaking in tongues is required to be saved. (Oneness Pentecostals) the Bible does not teach this tongues are required to be saved.
    We are saved by grace!
    Oneness folks do love the Lord, however they have a strong judgmental at***ude of those who have not received this gift. Judging others
    is a sin also.

    God bless,
    jeanmarie Formally p2 and jeanM

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