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Thread: The Gift of Tongues

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    Are you still contemplating the answer?
    (Key word is fruit)
    Hello Tdidymas,

    I see your point, since you and I already know this answer as plain as the summer day is long, make sure any weaker brother is edified to the end from this knowledge and not left in a dangerous state of confusion with something startling to the conscience. But it must be a simple answer and down to earth. Excellent!

    Okay then. Dear reader, since God showed me the edges of that unspeakable gift without functioning in it after my own conversion back in 1975 and how troubled my mind was by it, , I was aware that it was something unfamiliar and unrelated to my own capability. Yes, I was troubled by it as you too even might be now.

    So, to present you with the answer to the above question:

    “[H]ow exactly you are defining self-edification as a result of the exercise of tongues.”
    Peace, over the gift. Within the whole realm of what it is God does on our behalf, this one thing I know; a tremendous peace upholds me throughout the course of this activity that he showed me I was earlier in the very near state of losing my mind over, or something close to it (I wasn’t just a little worried), had it not been for a season of a few months of private edification preceding what the Holy Spirit had for me, thanks be to God. That would be the “fruit” our friend Tdidymas speaks of. Astounding peace, surrounding an unnatural ability.

    What is the exact feeling then during this process? Well, keep in mind the above peace permeated while I was fully conscious to such an end that for lack of a better (already mentioned) word, 2-fold entertainment from above, by God, and below, people on earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    2. How is your tongue-talking edifying others? Please explain in detail.
    TD
    Here again the word is clear. But Tdidymas must have missed the text’s presentation of this activity. Does he mean my private edification, or my Church use of this gift?

  2. #127
    RealFakeHair
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    Some folks here either go to bed late or get up early!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    the edges of that unspeakable gift
    2-fold entertainment from above, by God, and below, people on earth.
    Your descriptions here appear vague. I get that you feel peace whenever you use it. But what is this? What "edges" are you talking about? What is this "2-fold entertainment" you are talking about?

    The apostles wrote in Koine Greek, which was common language at the time, so that it could be understood by anyone. Sorry to add more requirements to my question, but isn't this a reasonable request, to ask for language that can be understood by the "run-of-the-mill" Christian?

    Does he mean my private edification, or my Church use of this gift?
    OK, so how about both?
    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    Your descriptions here appear vague. I get that you feel peace whenever you use it. But what is this? What "edges" are you talking about? What is this "2-fold entertainment" you are talking about?

    The apostles wrote in Koine Greek, which was common language at the time, so that it could be understood by anyone. Sorry to add more requirements to my question, but isn't this a reasonable request, to ask for language that can be understood by the "run-of-the-mill" Christian?


    OK, so how about both?
    TD
    Tdidymas, This line of questioning you have going on here, uh, may I make a suggestion? Rather than showing discontentedness towards me, why not do as the Apostle suggested, and leave the precautions in God’s capable hands?

    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (I Jn 4:1)

    That is, what He will reveal to you and how it stacks up according to His word. What He will do when we put those investigative efforts into the things of God.

    The resources to search these things out are vast these days including this subject, though I dislike the sometimes skew-effect of cross-reference and concordance that shows itself from time to time, be that digital or hard copy. Eventually, even those so-called exhaustive bound works can limit a search. But that is another subject.

    Surely, you have heard:

    4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

    Then what do people do with Paul’s apparent dividing of faith and baptism?:

    1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul p***ed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7There were in all about twelve men. (Acts 19:1-7)

    What should they believe, or better yet do. They should know it is still one baptism of Spirit working what? Just as the scriptures declare, rewarding gifts:

    But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (1 Corinthians 12:11)

    I’m not asking anyone to change their place of worship except for those who’s policy doesn’t fit God’s will. But make a few contacts to search this out. The larger ones who do not resist this would be best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Tdidymas, This line of questioning you have going on here, uh, may I make a suggestion? Rather than showing discontentedness towards me, why not do as the Apostle suggested, and leave the precautions in God’s capable hands?

    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (I Jn 4:1)

    That is, what He will reveal to you and how it stacks up according to His word. What He will do when we put those investigative efforts into the things of God.

    The resources to search these things out are vast these days including this subject, though I dislike the sometimes skew-effect of cross-reference and concordance that shows itself from time to time, be that digital or hard copy. Eventually, even those so-called exhaustive bound works can limit a search. But that is another subject.

    Surely, you have heard:

    4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

    Then what do people do with Paul’s apparent dividing of faith and baptism?:

    1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul p***ed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7There were in all about twelve men. (Acts 19:1-7)

    What should they believe, or better yet do. They should know it is still one baptism of Spirit working what? Just as the scriptures declare, rewarding gifts:

    But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (1 Corinthians 12:11)

    I’m not asking anyone to change their place of worship except for those who’s policy doesn’t fit God’s will. But make a few contacts to search this out. The larger ones who do not resist this would be best.
    Yet more evasion.
    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    Yet more evasion.
    TD
    Are you led of God, or fully self willed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Are you led of God, or fully self willed?
    Look in the mirror, brother.

    I asked a very simple question that requires little thought, "how is your action edifying you and others?" But you answered in vagarities, using language that no one uses and certainly no one can understand. I simply stated that the apostles did not write that way. They were honest, clear, and thoughtful in their writings. Then you actually tried to change the subject by asking me questions about baptism among other unrelated subjects. It looks like evasion to me - either you cannot answer the question, or you simple don't want to answer it. Is this too much to ask of you, just to be honest in answering a simple question?

    So let me reiterate the OP - this subject is about "the gift of tongues." The question related to this is "how is your gift edifying yourself and others"?

    Please, I kindly ask that if you want to make a serious effort to answer, then please do so. Otherwise, can you just be honest to say that you care not to answer it?
    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    I simply stated that the apostles did not write that way. They were honest, clear, and thoughtful in their writings.
    I see. Possibly, you do not regard those things that are not always explainable from those who cherish what the Spirit says for us now, or the apostles then. In which wasn’t always clear and “some things hard to understand” (2 Peter 3:16). If we regard it as everything of man, and nothing from God through His sons being enabled by His Spirit, then that limitation is readily understandable. For I do quite well understand the near animosity for the things of the Spirit in applicable terms. And how it isn’t thought relevant anymore in certain denominations.

    This would explain your vexation in continuing to pick away at me, my common limitation before God and my enlarged answer I have willingly granted in the Spirit of brotherhood that you find callously unacceptable.

    Then you actually tried to change the subject by asking me questions about baptism among other unrelated subjects.
    Punctuating my point precisely. How is it related? Because I asked you to consider trying that which you do not acknowledge in me. If you are led of God, then you are sensitive to that leading. And if you are sensitive to that leading, your hearing would recognize it whenever it crossed your path. Likewise, that “peaceable fruit of righteousness” comes as a result of His corrective leading. To reject this is an evasiveness of imperiling one’s own understanding in the word. In the good and bad, it's about communion with the Creator.

    When I said, “Peace over the gift”, it is before God as truth, and your insulting rejection does not change that truth. But as I said, such disregard for the Spirit’s work today is quite well known and supremely unfortunate for all who treat Him as such. But this rejected answer of mine isn’t the worst we have on display here.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Are you led of God, or fully self willed?
    Look in the mirror, brother.
    Sad. Who among those reading here and familiar with the leading (or the concept) would waste the opportunity to let that light shine by continuing this mundane dialog? Go on, dig up some more of my experience of what I count Philippians 3:8 to fertilize my 2 Timothy 4:13’s for use years and years down the road.

    I fear for all like TDM who are comfortable with closing the entrance to the Spirit.

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    I fear for all like TDM who are comfortable with closing the entrance to the Spirit. Quote(MichaellS)
    I put it this way, I fear for all like xyz who are comfortable with not gaurding against the entrance of evil spirits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    I fear for all like TDM who are comfortable with closing the entrance to the Spirit. Quote(MichaellS)
    I put it this way, I fear for all like xyz who are comfortable with not gaurding against the entrance of evil spirits.
    My brother who is weak in the faith and unlearned accepts you, as do I, but for some reason he is more prone to listen to you on this than he will me. He wants to know what are you telling him to do with the above information? Since he is aware that God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), nor does my brother tie into uncertainty as the Lord said not to do (Matthew 5:37, James 5:12). So I ask you Hair, please help settle this issue for my weaker brother being as specific as possible. What are you telling him to do with the above information?
    Last edited by MichaellS; 09-05-2013 at 04:51 AM.

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    Michael, thank you for your reply to Hair, now I know how you judge me. So since you see me as weak and unlearned, then surely if you were led by the Spirit you would be making sure that I was well-instructed (which you have yet to do, since you have avoided answering a simple question from the beginning, and continue to do so). Please show me where my replies are unlearned:

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    I see. Possibly, you do not regard those things that are not always explainable from those who cherish what the Spirit says for us now, or the apostles then. In which wasn’t always clear and “some things hard to understand” (2 Peter 3:16). If we regard it as everything of man, and nothing from God through His sons being enabled by His Spirit, then that limitation is readily understandable. For I do quite well understand the near animosity for the things of the Spirit in applicable terms. And how it isn’t thought relevant anymore in certain denominations.
    When you quote 2 Peter 3:16, I ***ert you are misapplying it, since Peter was talking about predestination, justification, and such things being hard to understand, since the understanding of the truth of such matters depends on one's definition of basic concepts such as faith (which is ill-defined by many). In fact, your claim that tongues is hard to understand and unexplainable is where you err, as I quote from Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." So then to you, is this whole list unexplainable, or just tongues as you claim it? In fact, Paul is listing these things as elemental gifts in the church at the time, and does indeed well-explain the usage of them in that epistle, including tongues. Yet the usage of your gift you deem "not always explainable." In conclusion, I take it that your attempt at making some excuse (that it is unexplainable) puts your 'gift' in the category of cultic behavior, since you cannot explain it in terms of Biblical language. Do you leave me no other alternative than this conclusion?

    This would explain your vexation in continuing to pick away at me, my common limitation before God and my enlarged answer I have willingly granted in the Spirit of brotherhood that you find callously unacceptable.
    Actually, my conversation is relatively friendly. If it appears vexing and callous, I think it is because of your unwillingness to fully confess your testimony of it, and perhaps this has fear behind it, namely fear of the unknown, since it is "not always explainable" to you. If you were completely honest in your answers, you would find my conversation friendly to you, although it might not necessarily be friendly to the practice you hold so dear.

    Punctuating my point precisely. How is it related? Because I asked you to consider trying that which you do not acknowledge in me. If you are led of God, then you are sensitive to that leading. And if you are sensitive to that leading, your hearing would recognize it whenever it crossed your path. Likewise, that “peaceable fruit of righteousness” comes as a result of His corrective leading. To reject this is an evasiveness of imperiling one’s own understanding in the word. In the good and bad, it's about communion with the Creator.
    I am being led by the Holy Spirit when I "try the spirits whether they are of God." I am being led of the Spirit when I use strict interpretation of the written Word. I am being led of the Spirit when I ask what the fruit of the action is. (Would you dare suggest to me that I am not being led of the Spirit in these things?)

    Should I consider "trying" tongues as you suggest here? Should I try something that for all practical purposes may be something of a fleshly source (or worse, demonic)? Or even worse than this, should I "try" something that only the Holy Spirit gives, only to be found mocking the very Spirit who gives it? Should I "try" something that I see other people doing as if I was some infant who tries out his own babbling, just to be a part of adult conversation? The Bible clearly states that the Spirit gave utterance, therefore your suggestion that I consider "trying" it is conterfeit, to say the least, a bum steer. Then, everything you say from this point becomes more suspect.

    Of course, it is about communion with the Creator. If God tells me to do this thing, I'll do it no matter what; but if you tell me I should do it, then why should I listen to you?

    When I said, “Peace over the gift”, it is before God as truth, and your insulting rejection does not change that truth. But as I said, such disregard for the Spirit’s work today is quite well known and supremely unfortunate for all who treat Him as such. But this rejected answer of mine isn’t the worst we have on display here.
    I did not reject this statement. In fact, I see it as the most honest thing you have said so far. What I objected to was the flowery and vague language that you wrote all around it. If you had said the single word "peace," you would have said (apparently) all that your honesty could muster, and that would have been enough. But your vague language all around it speaks volumes of pretentiousness.

    Sad. Who among those reading here and familiar with the leading (or the concept) would waste the opportunity to let that light shine by continuing this mundane dialog? Go on, dig up some more of my experience of what I count Philippians 3:8 to fertilize my 2 Timothy 4:13’s for use years and years down the road.

    I fear for all like TDM who are comfortable with closing the entrance to the Spirit.
    Actually, I am simply trying to find out if indeed your practice is of God's Spirit, or has some other source. What I close entrance to is deception, since I've been there, done that before.

    If this dialog appears mundane to you, then why don't you just end it?

    Your 2 Tim. 4:13 ref doesn't appear relevant to this conversation.

    Let me simply say at this point, you might as well be totally honest about your experience, rather than couching information in vague language or evasion. It would be better for us both if I reject your practice with full knowledge of your honest descriptions, rather than to reject it based on your refusal to confess it. Give me a reason to accept it!! By default I must reject it, unless you give me some positive Biblical evidence to accept it. Do you agree?
    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    My brother who is weak in the faith and unlearned accepts you, as do I, but for some reason he is more prone to listen to you on this than he will me. He wants to know what are you telling him to do with the above information? Since he is aware that God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), nor does my brother tie into uncertainty as the Lord said not to do (Matthew 5:37, James 5:12). So I ask you Hair, please help settle this issue for my weaker brother being as specific as possible. What are you telling him to do with the above information?
    Just warning you to try the spirit. Make sure anything the spirit tells you conforms to the Holy Bible, and not just what you are I want from the spirit. A good book on this is written by David Wilkerson, on why he left the charismatic movement.
    The same things he experienced I also saw in the movement. So what I am saying is be very careful with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    Michael, thank you for your reply to Hair, now I know how you judge me. So since you see me as weak and unlearned, then surely if you were led by the Spirit you would be making sure that I was well-instructed (which you have yet to do, since you have avoided answering a simple question from the beginning, and continue to do so). Please show me where my replies are unlearned:



    When you quote 2 Peter 3:16, I ***ert you are misapplying it, since Peter was talking about predestination, justification, and such things being hard to understand, since the understanding of the truth of such matters depends on one's definition of basic concepts such as faith (which is ill-defined by many). In fact, your claim that tongues is hard to understand and unexplainable is where you err, as I quote from Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." So then to you, is this whole list unexplainable, or just tongues as you claim it? In fact, Paul is listing these things as elemental gifts in the church at the time, and does indeed well-explain the usage of them in that epistle, including tongues. Yet the usage of your gift you deem "not always explainable." In conclusion, I take it that your attempt at making some excuse (that it is unexplainable) puts your 'gift' in the category of cultic behavior, since you cannot explain it in terms of Biblical language. Do you leave me no other alternative than this conclusion?


    Actually, my conversation is relatively friendly. If it appears vexing and callous, I think it is because of your unwillingness to fully confess your testimony of it, and perhaps this has fear behind it, namely fear of the unknown, since it is "not always explainable" to you. If you were completely honest in your answers, you would find my conversation friendly to you, although it might not necessarily be friendly to the practice you hold so dear.



    I am being led by the Holy Spirit when I "try the spirits whether they are of God." I am being led of the Spirit when I use strict interpretation of the written Word. I am being led of the Spirit when I ask what the fruit of the action is. (Would you dare suggest to me that I am not being led of the Spirit in these things?)

    Should I consider "trying" tongues as you suggest here? Should I try something that for all practical purposes may be something of a fleshly source (or worse, demonic)? Or even worse than this, should I "try" something that only the Holy Spirit gives, only to be found mocking the very Spirit who gives it? Should I "try" something that I see other people doing as if I was some infant who tries out his own babbling, just to be a part of adult conversation? The Bible clearly states that the Spirit gave utterance, therefore your suggestion that I consider "trying" it is conterfeit, to say the least, a bum steer. Then, everything you say from this point becomes more suspect.

    Of course, it is about communion with the Creator. If God tells me to do this thing, I'll do it no matter what; but if you tell me I should do it, then why should I listen to you?



    I did not reject this statement. In fact, I see it as the most honest thing you have said so far. What I objected to was the flowery and vague language that you wrote all around it. If you had said the single word "peace," you would have said (apparently) all that your honesty could muster, and that would have been enough. But your vague language all around it speaks volumes of pretentiousness.



    Actually, I am simply trying to find out if indeed your practice is of God's Spirit, or has some other source. What I close entrance to is deception, since I've been there, done that before.

    If this dialog appears mundane to you, then why don't you just end it?

    Your 2 Tim. 4:13 ref doesn't appear relevant to this conversation.

    Let me simply say at this point, you might as well be totally honest about your experience, rather than couching information in vague language or evasion. It would be better for us both if I reject your practice with full knowledge of your honest descriptions, rather than to reject it based on your refusal to confess it. Give me a reason to accept it!! By default I must reject it, unless you give me some positive Biblical evidence to accept it. Do you agree?
    TD
    We have not corrected anything here in my handling of this issue.

    Of course, it is about communion with the Creator. If God tells me to do this thing, I'll do it no matter what; but if you tell me I should do it, then why should I listen to you?
    Return and see what you have left behind on attaching doubt on all those statements Paul said concerning that which we should now begin to entrust:

    “I do not want you to be unaware, , , I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:1,3)

    Have I cursed our precious Lord? A double answer in a single question.

    I did not reject this statement. In fact, I see it as the most honest thing you have said so far. What I objected to was the flowery and vague language that you wrote all around it. If you had said the single word "peace," you would have said (apparently) all that your honesty could muster, and that would have been enough. But your vague language all around it speaks volumes of pretentiousness.
    Well thank you, but “most honest thing”? Here I am affirming the Kingdom of God (II Corinthians 1:20), and you invite others to view me as a false teacher?

    If this dialog appears mundane to you, then why don't you just end it?
    Let me ask you TDM, Did you really give ample room for an honest answer to that sentence? Once again, what is missing, is each of our loss of a sufficient answer we bring to the table. What happens is that answer becomes divided. One remains mundane (my experience in God), and the other, opening the door of possibilities to the gifts of the Spirit springs to life.

    Your 2 Tim. 4:13 ref doesn't appear relevant to this conversation.
    You, me and every Christian has I would hope their own record of being blessed in Him from day to day, from “glory to glory” (2 Corinthians 3:18). But as it is said a little later in that p***age: “Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead” (Philippians 3:13) We are all held harmless on this issue whether aggressive or not so aggressive. It is demonic when we begin to teach that what is said concerning these things are they themselves demonic. But the question remains, why should our reasoning remain on the bottom of the dead sea saying I disagree, which is under the same rhetorical spirit being perpetrated all the way from Egypt, where our Lord was crucified?

    Give me a reason to accept it!!
    Give you a reason? How about an impartial treatment of I Corinthians 12 and 14. If you find those chapters deceptive, I invite you to show me where.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Just warning you to try the spirit. Make sure anything the spirit tells you conforms to the Holy Bible, and not just what you are I want from the spirit. A good book on this is written by David Wilkerson, on why he left the charismatic movement.
    The same things he experienced I also saw in the movement. So what I am saying is be very careful with it.
    Okay buddy. Yes, I have heard him from broadcast dating back to the 80's.

    May I ask, what are say three of the top areas of his defense against these things?

    God bless all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Okay buddy. Yes, I have heard him from broadcast dating back to the 80's.

    May I ask, what are say three of the top areas of his defense against these things?

    God bless all.
    I think he summed it up himself with this statement, "Anything that cannot be found in Scripture has to be rejected outright--totally rejected."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Okay buddy. Yes, I have heard him from broadcast dating back to the 80's.

    May I ask, what are say three of the top areas of his defense against these things?

    God bless all.
    First, was the spirit of lust. I saw this too while working in the religious side of the business. No religious faith is immune to sexual lust, but in the pentecostal, charismatic movement it was in overdrive. There are charismatic leaders who make Joseph Smith jr. seem like a unich. The charismatic movement of the 1980s had more bleach blonde hootchie mamas than the Las Vagas strip.
    Second, woman preachers. David gave an example like this; in the Holy Bible we have The Father, Then The Son, and then man, in that order. In the Church man is over the woman in the same way man is over the wife in the family unit.
    If you think about it we Christians never think of putting man over Jesus who is the head of the Church, but in today's christian churches many have women pastors. This puts women over man, in the same way we are putting man above God.
    Both are wrong and I believe as did David Wilkerson this open the door to evil spirits with-in the churches til this day.
    Opening women into the ministery had lead to opening the door to *****s into the ministery, so what is next?
    I can't think of an third reason right now..

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    First, was the spirit of lust. I saw this too while working in the religious side of the business. No religious faith is immune to sexual lust, but in the pentecostal, charismatic movement it was in overdrive. There are charismatic leaders who make Joseph Smith jr. seem like a unich. The charismatic movement of the 1980s had more bleach blonde hootchie mamas than the Las Vagas strip.
    Second, woman preachers. David gave an example like this; in the Holy Bible we have The Father, Then The Son, and then man, in that order. In the Church man is over the woman in the same way man is over the wife in the family unit.
    If you think about it we Christians never think of putting man over Jesus who is the head of the Church, but in today's christian churches many have women pastors. This puts women over man, in the same way we are putting man above God.
    Both are wrong and I believe as did David Wilkerson this open the door to evil spirits with-in the churches til this day.
    Opening women into the ministery had lead to opening the door to *****s into the ministery, so what is next?
    I can't think of an third reason right now..
    Point no.1.

    Well then, that is what the ability of speaking in tongues is thought to be, , a movement of lust? Is that what we have to conclude from the hireling response of a few Pentecostal leaders that since they are tied to the liberties of exercising this function in public and also walk improperly that tongues is to be lumped together with it?

    Is this what you would want to be understood?

    Of course, I’m sure you would have us to be more completely understanding that any act of sin by any member of oversight in any Christ centered facility is to be rooted out.

    Point no. 2.

    Well Hair, while I won’t say it is synonymous across the spectrum of Pentecostal churches, we just might have a near epidemic of error on this. While the Episcopalian/Anglican sect have led the open charge on this, what I have witnessed is the quiet treatment that surfaces in Pentecostal spheres is because they do tend to sport the informal oversight. When that is questioned as I have openly before elders, you may not get to the bottom of anything, only bristling.

    For instance; back about 1987 in OKC, my daughter won the most scriptures memorized award for Sunday School which upon receiving the award she was requested to say a word of thanks to our crowd of about 4500. I refused to allow this, to which the pastor publically held the question without mentioning my name, “I don’t know why”, while the other girls were allowed to speak for other awards.

    This is another subject for another thread which also carries stipulations both positions will resist.

    God bless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    I think he summed it up himself with this statement, "Anything that cannot be found in Scripture has to be rejected outright--totally rejected."
    Good heavens yes. And this is no small area to belittle without cause. My point is what is that cause? With regard to your point, what is it that has been added?

    God Bless!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Good heavens yes. And this is no small area to belittle without cause. My point is what is that cause? With regard to your point, what is it that has been added?

    God Bless!
    Hi Mike,

    Much false doctrine has been added. I dare say that you could go into any church on any Sunday and find something un-biblical, either unintentionally in the form of some tradition or purposely for a variety of reasons. And while there are not many claiming to be prophets today there are plenty of false teachers who are very good at what they do. Peter sums it up nicely.

    2 Peter 2:1-3
    “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber”.

    The primary motive behind such false teaching is greed. They do not hesitate to take hurtful advantage of their followers in order to enrich themselves. Their words promise much, but their ability to deliver is nil, therefore they are properly accused of exploiting by deceit. Their teaching is flattery; their ambitions are financial; their conscience must be dulled, and their aim is deception. Obvious to some, irresistible to many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi Mike,

    Much false doctrine has been added. I dare say that you could go into any church on any Sunday and find something un-biblical, either unintentionally in the form of some tradition or purposely for a variety of reasons. And while there are not many claiming to be prophets today there are plenty of false teachers who are very good at what they do. Peter sums it up nicely.

    2 Peter 2:1-3
    “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber”.

    The primary motive behind such false teaching is greed. They do not hesitate to take hurtful advantage of their followers in order to enrich themselves. Their words promise much, but their ability to deliver is nil, therefore they are properly accused of exploiting by deceit. Their teaching is flattery; their ambitions are financial; their conscience must be dulled, and their aim is deception. Obvious to some, irresistible to many.
    It is one thing it say, "it is my opinion." Quite another to say. " The Lord laid it on my heart to say....ect." Or the Spirit came to me and said, "This or that."
    If at any time we say the Spirit or the Lord told us something and we later find out we were wrong, that makes us a false prophet or teacher. I have yet to hear Pat Roberson or Hal Lindsay confess their false prophecy or teachings, have you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    It is one thing it say, "it is my opinion." Quite another to say. " The Lord laid it on my heart to say....ect." Or the Spirit came to me and said, "This or that."
    If at any time we say the Spirit or the Lord told us something and we later find out we were wrong, that makes us a false prophet or teacher. I have yet to hear Pat Roberson or Hal Lindsay confess their false prophecy or teachings, have you?
    Hi RFH,
    I have never heard anyone on TV or radio admit such a thing, usually their out is to say that the viewers were lacking in faith. We must remember though that most of them are prophets for profit (sorry) and prideful also. In my opinion we have no need of "foretellers" today, what we need are "forthtellers". But false teaching is a very big business and "Christian" self help books are everywhere. Christians should realize that everyone does not speak in tongues, everyday is not Friday, and we can't just name it and claim it. Reality is that we are all parts of the same body with Christ as the head and can do nothing without Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi RFH,
    I have never heard anyone on TV or radio admit such a thing, usually their out is to say that the viewers were lacking in faith. We must remember though that most of them are prophets for profit (sorry) and prideful also. In my opinion we have no need of "foretellers" today, what we need are "forthtellers". But false teaching is a very big business and "Christian" self help books are everywhere. Christians should realize that everyone does not speak in tongues, everyday is not Friday, and we can't just name it and claim it. Reality is that we are all parts of the same body with Christ as the head and can do nothing without Him.
    You will never hear it, ever! I remember soon after the fall of the Soviet Union, Hal Lindsay, making the statment in front of a large audience that he predicted the fall of the Soviet Union. I saw the look on many of the faces out in the audience, many were very surpised he said it, or better shocked. He never predicted the fall of the Saviet Union, he saw the commies in the final battle at Armagaddon, not the sad weak, and wittering collapsing of an USSR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    I have never heard anyone on TV or radio admit such a thing, usually their out is to say that the viewers were lacking in faith. We must remember though that most of them are prophets for profit (sorry) and prideful also. In my opinion we have no need of "foretellers" today, what we need are "forthtellers". But false teaching is a very big business and "Christian" self help books are everywhere. Christians should realize that everyone does not speak in tongues, everyday is not Friday, and we can't just name it and claim it. Reality is that we are all parts of the same body with Christ as the head and can do nothing without Him.
    Believe me Disciple, I don’t wish to antagonize, but is there an area of specific reason you see we should attach the below warning to the implementation of the gift to be able to decipher man’s craftiness not wrought in the truth?

    Much false doctrine has been added. I dare say that you could go into any church on any Sunday and find something un-biblical, either unintentionally in the form of some tradition or purposely for a variety of reasons. And while there are not many claiming to be prophets today there are plenty of false teachers who are very good at what they do. Peter sums it up nicely.

    2 Peter 2:1-3
    “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber”.

    The primary motive behind such false teaching is greed. They do not hesitate to take hurtful advantage of their followers in order to enrich themselves. Their words promise much, but their ability to deliver is nil, therefore they are properly accused of exploiting by deceit. Their teaching is flattery; their ambitions are financial; their conscience must be dulled, and their aim is deception. Obvious to some, irresistible to many.
    A fine statement. Excellent warning to be equipped with! These such p***ages are so very vital for covering our spiritual backs that if one would say seldom have I ever seen this in the Church these days, then he might not know the hour we live in. I too remember the feelings within when I saw it happen. Like some creepy m*** delusion that causes sadness for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    I have yet to hear Pat Roberson or Hal Lindsay confess their false prophecy or teachings, have you?
    Actually no. They know they would suffer excruciatingly. Although I did see a mention on behalf of Hal by a Christian network head once. Only once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    We have not corrected anything here in my handling of this issue.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "we" here. If you mean that I'm trying to correct your errors, but you aren't listening, then I believe you.
    If your meaning is that I don't have any valid point against how you have answered, then I disagree. I believe my points are valid and Biblical.

    Return and see what you have left behind on attaching doubt on all those statements Paul said concerning that which we should now begin to entrust:

    “I do not want you to be unaware, , , I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:1,3)

    Have I cursed our precious Lord? A double answer in a single question.
    You think this answers my objections? It actually digs up a deeper question here: How do you know you have not cursed the Lord? Since your tongue is unknown, and unknowable seeing you have no interpreter, then how do you know, or how will you ever know (until the day of judgment) what you are saying? You might claim "I speak the language of angels," but how do you know what is being said unless you have an interpreter? Here is where Paul's original meaning of 1 Cor. 14:4 gets sticky, because the only people who claim that "edifieth himself" is a positive action are Pentecostals - the tongue-talkers themselves!! The very ones who despise everyone else who does not practice it, because they are taught "whoever has not spoken in tongues does not have the Spirit," as the Pentecostal dogma says.

    If you want to go deeper than the surface and stop smugly saying "I haven't cursed the Lord" (as if that proves anything), just keep in mind that Jesus said "not everyone who calls Me Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven," which tells me that anyone can parrot the words "Jesus is Lord" and not be speaking from the Spirit of the Lord. Paul's meaning of "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Ghost" goes far deeper than parroting words. If you observe the full context, he isn't saying this as a proverb to be taken on its own to apply to anything you want. He is talking about submission to the Lord. He is talking about a conversation of practice and teaching. It has exactly the same discerning meaning as John who wrote "he who does not acknowledge Jesus is not of God," that is, "this is how we determine the Spirit of God..." who is talking about the teaching of someone, whether it be of God or not. They are talking about the teaching of ideas, which come from the spirit of a man. Is that spirit driven by God, or by the devil? The way to discern is by asking the question - does it support Jesus as Lord, Jesus as the Christ?

    Therefore, just because you lay claim that your 'gift' is of God, doesn't prove anything in the least. Many Christians who know and understand the basic truths of the gospel have other ideas that are wrong, and their actions show it, and their words prove inconsistent with things that are taught in the scripture. This is why John says "do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they be of God." And I asked one simple and clearly understood question, "what's the fruit," in other words, give me some evidence that your 'gift' actually produces the fruit of the Spirit for others. But instead of answering this question, you have proceeded to tell me (in my words here), "try it, you'll like it" - bro, all I can see is that you're trying to hand me a dung sandwich.


    Well thank you, but “most honest thing”? Here I am affirming the Kingdom of God (II Corinthians 1:20), and you invite others to view me as a false teacher?
    2 Cor 1:20? Paul is talking about the promises of the gospel, not a gift of languages that is not only not promised to everyone, but is solely contingent on the will of the Spirit! Here again, you reveal your ignorance of the true meaning of scripture, and your willingness to misapply it. Technically, one could say here that you are indeed a false teacher, since you certainly are trying to teach something here. Nevertheless, I will not go as far as to judge you this way, but rather to say that you are certainly ********ly misapplying the scripture here and elsewhere. It is this that renders your statement, "I am affirming the Kingdom of God" as ineffective, since who can listen to someone who doesn't understand the clear language of scripture?


    Let me ask you TDM, Did you really give ample room for an honest answer to that sentence? Once again, what is missing, is each of our loss of a sufficient answer we bring to the table. What happens is that answer becomes divided. One remains mundane (my experience in God), and the other, opening the door of possibilities to the gifts of the Spirit springs to life.
    Here again, you presume that your 'gift' is of God, rather than some other source. I accept the fact that you believe that, I do not accept that your 'gift' is of the Spirit of God. In my experience, tongue-talking is largely an action of the flesh, and doesn't edify anyone. Just because you lay claim that you feel peace when you do it, doesn't prove anything one way or another. It certainly doesn't prove that you are truly edified in the faith. All your words prove to me is that you are edified in your bias that you believe your 'gift' is of God. The more you avoid answering the simple question 'how is your tongue-talking edifying other people,' the more you prove to me that your practice is fleshly, not spiritual.

    Please allow me a suggestion to you: if you want to show someone a reasonable explanation of your practice (as all the apostles did in the NT writings), then stop being mysterious about it - get out of the circular logic of "it's not explainable because it is miraculous, and therefore must be of God," and start seriously considering how to well-explain your practice from a Biblical standpoint. I'm only saying here, that if you are unwilling to do this, then why talk about it at all? If your motivation for talking about it is not to edify people with understanding, then it must be something else - maybe to get converts into your cult! Believe me when I say, if you evade a simple and key question, then it speaks volumes about what your motive is, and people generally ***ume the worst. From their view, if you are mysterious about it, look out, they suspect cultic activity.


    You, me and every Christian has I would hope their own record of being blessed in Him from day to day, from “glory to glory” (2 Corinthians 3:18). But as it is said a little later in that p***age: “Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead” (Philippians 3:13) We are all held harmless on this issue whether aggressive or not so aggressive. It is demonic when we begin to teach that what is said concerning these things are they themselves demonic. But the question remains, why should our reasoning remain on the bottom of the dead sea saying I disagree, which is under the same rhetorical spirit being perpetrated all the way from Egypt, where our Lord was crucified?
    Whaaat??? I'm wondering where you are coming from with this statement. Are you trying to confuse me? All I said was "doesn't appear relevant" to your ref 2 Tim. 4:13. You can't just acknowledge that you got the ref wrong, and to correct it? At the very least, to explain why you think it is relevant. Instead you go into things that are even more irrelevant to the conversation, however true or untrue your statements are. Since I am called to respond to it, here it is on what I think are 2 relevant points to this:

    1. You said "It is demonic when we begin to teach that what is said concerning these things are they themselves demonic." - firstly, I ***ume you say this because I questioned what spirit your 'gift' is from, and secondly that this statement of itself is wrong, since it is contrary to what the Bible says about teachings: "the wisdom from below is fleshly, earthly, demonic" (Jas. 3:15), and 1 Jn. 4 "do not believe every spirit..." But perhaps I misunderstand you, when you say "concerning these things" perhaps you are yet ***uming (due to your bias) that the tongues you speak is from God, and this is what you mean by "these things." Actually, this is the subject matter at hand, that I question your belief that your 'gift' is from God. And for you to say that my questioning that your 'gift' is from God is the same as "teaching that what is said concerning these things are they themselves demonic" would be a false witness, since I said no such thing; or if it is a 'warning' to me not to go too far, then my response would be that you still err, because you have yet to show that your 'gift' is of God from a Biblical standpoint. All you have said thus far is "I'm edified," but you haven't shown in the least that your 'edification' is Biblical. In fact, in my 20 yrs experience fellowshipping with tongue-talkers, this issue has been one of the most divisive issues among churches, and my experience about the reaction to my questioning that 'gift' has been nothing but "envy and strife" (the very context of James's "wisdom from below"). It tells me I've touched a sacred cow.

    <continued in the next post>

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    <continued from previous post>

    2. You said, "...Egypt, where our Lord was crucified" - I take it you are using Egypt as a metaphor for Jerusalem? Then, are you not doing the same thing you accuse me of by your rhetoric? I get that your bias is equally as strong as mine in this matter. Or are you claiming that you have an open mind that your 'gift' might not be from God? I've already stated that I am open to receiving your testimony that your 'gift' is of God, I'm simply stating that I need some Biblical evidence of it which you have not yet produced (except for a biased and out-of-context interpretation typical of Pentecostal teaching). So then, if you claim that I am saying "I disagree" with a dead-sea period, it appears to me from where I am looking that you are the one saying it.

    Give you a reason? How about an impartial treatment of I Corinthians 12 and 14. If you find those chapters deceptive, I invite you to show me where.
    I do not find the scriptures deceptive. But what I do find deceptive is the Pentecostal teaching about the gift of tongues. There are certain scriptures that are taken out of context and the meaning twisted out of shape just to support the modern practice of it among Pentecostals and Charismatics. And where I am trying to show you is in the simple question "how is it edifying others." If how you are interpreting 1 Cor. 14:4 is your strongest evidence that your 'gift' is from God, then my response is "you are treading on thin ice," since I do not see that the edification that Paul is talking about in that chapter is limited to a feeling of peace (or even is a feeling of peace), since such a thing is pretextual to that p***age. Saying that experiencing peace in the practice of it might (or might not) do yourself some real good, but it does absolutely nothing for someone else's good. The argument is extremely weak. When I compare your argument with that of the apostles in the NT, it falls far short.

    Further, what was the purpose of all the flowery and vague language you originally responded with? I simply objected to it, at the time I did not accuse you of being deceptive. But if you weren't actually intending to be deceptive (to persuade me of the legitimacy of your practice), then why use flowery and vague language? Why not clearly lay out the evidence from a Biblical standpoint? Such a response only causes me to be suspicious of your practice. In fact, what it reminds me of is the cult of Simon the Sorcerer, who was called "the mighty power of God" by his followers because they figured that his mysterious ways were miraculous as opposed to deceptive. Here again, please don't ***ume that I am accusing you of it, I'm just saying what it looks like from my POV. It looks the same as the Mormon claim that they "know" the BoM is of God because they feel a "burning in the bosom" (and they invite you into their cult by saying "try it").

    So then, if you want some substance ("show me where") that I believe Pentecostal teaching is deceptive, here are 7 points which is not an exhaustive list:

    1. The Bible says "as the Spirit gave utterance" in which there was no teaching in the matter, no prepping, no command or coaxing or coaching for anyone to speak in tongues, they just did it "as the Spirit gave utterance." But Pentecostals and Charismatics to the contrary still teach people to speak in tongues, typically saying things like "speak, but not in English" and have taught so from the beginning of the movement in the early 20th century. In fact, some have taught how to talk tongues in a "priming the pump" fashion of parroting someone else's gibberish, to the extent that it actually became a joke among Charismatics about "kick starting" tongues with phrases like "retie my bowtie" and "sella my honda," which indicates the spiritual nonsense of people who prey on the ignorance of the untaught and unlearned.

    2. Self-edification as a result of tongue-talking is cited as one of the strongest evidences that the practice is of God; but such edification is never explained in the context of serving others, which is the main thrust of Paul's instruction in 1 Cor. 12-14. At the very least, such self-edification is self-centered and self-focused. It appears to serve only the self. Any edification in the churches appears to be limited to supporting one's belief in the practice of tongues, as opposed to real edification in the faith once delivered to the saints.

    3. The subject is extremely divisive. Those who practice the art claim that they have the Spirit, and have the audacity to claim that others don't. Although the Bible clearly states how to know someone has the Spirit - by the fruit of their lifestyle, and by what they teach - Pentecostals focus on their "initial evidence" theory, to the exclusion of real Biblical evidence. And when this theory is questioned, the at***ude of the tongue-talker becomes hostile and judgmental.

    4. Statistically speaking, whenever there is an interpretation of the tongues spoken in a public setting, the two sound nothing alike. The unknown tongue is always repe***ive babbling. If the tongues was an actual language saying something intelligible, it would sound as such. Even when we don't understand a language, we can readily and easily determine that what is being said is intelligible to someone, since we hear the inflections, intonations, and other sounds of a real language. Modern tongues (statistically speaking, say 99% of it all) is repe***ive gibberish that not only sounds meaningless when spoken, but ends up being meaningless in reality as far as the universal church is concerned. The closest thing to babbling in the Bible is "mene mene tekel upharsin" which is a pronouncement of judgment. The prophecy about "strange tongues" does not mean "meaningless babbling." This prophecy clearly refers to known intelligible languages as the apostle Peter testified in Act 2.

    5. The interpretation of a tongue in a public setting (among those normally acceptable to Christians, which excludes those 'interpretations' that are wildly beyond any semblance of truth) almost always is a quote from scripture, or a paraphrase of a scriptural truth. Here again, why is a tongue and interpretation needed, if the message is merely a quote from known scripture? Why not simply use the scripture to edify the church? Why does it have to come in the form of 'tongues and interpretation' unless the real agenda is to 'edify' the church in their belief in tongues? Strengthening a belief in the tongues practice is not real edification of the church, because the thrust of Paul's teaching about it in 1 Cor. 12-14 is all about edification in the knowledge of Christ and the love of the brethren. Pentecostals, in my experience, love only Pentecostals; they don't appear to love all the brethren, especially when their theory about "initial evidence" is questioned.

    6. Narrow-mindedness: Pentecostals have the regular practice of using (misusing) scripture for the sole purpose of supporting their dogmas. Their personal experience with modern tongues is used as the ruler to measure how they interpret scripture. When an alternate interpretation to theirs is presented, it is immediately p***ed off as wrong without any consideration of what scripture's original meaning is. Such is typical practice of Pentecostal and Charismatic teaching. They seem to think that when they read scripture, just any idea that pops into their mind about it just has to be "the Holy Spirit." Paul calls this at***ude "heady, highminded" as something to be avoided (2 Tim. 3:4).

    7. Typical modern practice of public speaking in tongues is often contrary to Paul's teaching about order of worship in 1 Cor. 12-14. The reason is because of the Pentecostal belief that the Holy Spirit is always sponteneous and unplanned - always a surprise. This belief peppers their teaching and language. They seem to be fixated on the idea that anything planned well in advance and choreographed cannot possibly be the leading of the Holy Spirit. In fact, they call it "dead" if they fail to be "inspired" (usually) by the free-style spontaneity of their loud, boistrous, and wild worship styles. Thus, they tend to disregard the order that Paul orders concerning worship practice.

    Is this enough for you to see where I am coming from, that I ask a simple question that does not really require excessive thought (if you know the scripture and have the wisdom of God with you): how is your practice of tongues edifying others?
    TD

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