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Thread: The Gift of Tongues

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    TD, You don’t strike me as one who is easily overwhelmed from challenge. But what you just selectively responded to tells me you are not seeing the whole council and fulfilling what the Apostle said he most certainly would not do, “shun” to declare anything of God’s will. By selectively responding to only the important points, you have missed the point to be had. As he said; V19 ”however, in the church”, knowing which scriptures are to be applied to public tongues for prophesy, and which are to be used for oneself. You are still blurring the two when you ask "how does your practice edify others"? I have explained this at length.

    Can I try a little something? Take for instance the following:

    13Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15What is [the outcome] then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

    Two things come to mind here for me concerning your position.

    1. Because it says “my mind is unfruitful” I’m pretty confident you are all eager to ***ume this is bad, evil or isn’t of God. That this is something He doesn’t want for His people.

    2. If so, you then intersect to override “unfruitful” with “mind” so you don’t have meddle with “unfruitful” any longer. Is that what you have done?
    I understand the part about "in the church." And no, you are wrong about your confidence of what I ***ume. The point I was trying to make was that Pentecostals (i.e. in my observation of 20 yrs of fellowshipping with them) often and regularly practice what Paul rebuked the Corinthians for in ch. 12-14. The point I was making is that Pentecostals major on minors and minor on majors. The minor point being the incidental thing that Paul said about self-edification, and the major point being about how, when, and where it should be practiced. It seems that P's want to disregard the major theme of what Paul wrote about, and then want to focus in on the minor and incidental things - which shows that they just want to use scripture as a proving ground for their subjective experience. This is the point I was trying to make here. It has nothing to do with whether or not I accept that authentic tongues really does edify.

    If you can see so clearly, why can’t you see why I can’t see? Quite plainly, it is not supported in contextual remarks surrounding it for any such notion.
    This was a rhetorical question. I do see why you can't see it, because you simply refuse to look, and like I said above you are focusing on the wrong thing.

    Or consider this one:

    18I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; 19however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

    For obvious reasons, I can see your point here if I were directed that way being overly simple, or early on. That is not a criticism, I am working towards a point here. “However” in V19 does not alleviate V18. Yes, and I will restate, it is preferred and better to edify the Church by the Spirit. But where do you find ample justification to cancel verse 18? Or with what do you set orderliness to refuse God’s will for self-edification from the scriptures? I think you might be willing to put prophesy at 100% of being God’s will to edify the Church with. And if you tried real hard, might put pre-messaging tongues at maybe 1 or 2%. Well, since it is by the Spirit also, maybe we could bump it up to 99.99%.

    When you state Paul is not encouraging self-edification, why would he confuse us with V18? Because the confusion is not with V18, but with that same hidden corner we just can’t say yes to.

    Yes:

    “I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also” V15.

    Not: I will stop with the spirit so I can pray fully with the mind. Or he would have said so.

    While it is said to “desire” Spiritual gifts, I no longer want to insult His presence with it not being something we can just approach non-aggressively. Repent! I just did.
    Again here also, you make presumptions based on your bias, which causes you to read the scripture with prejudice. Are you ***uming Paul speaks tongues in private? Him saying "however in the church" does NOT automatically mean his previous statement means "in private." The contrast is NOT about LOCATION, it is about PURPOSE.

    Nevertheless, I'll go with you in your ***umption that it means "in private" (:18). It still does not prove that your tongues is authentic. Some similarities to what is described in the scripture doesn't make it authentic.

    Actually, I'll consider you repentant when you start acknowledging and addressing the real issues of how modern tongues is not like the original.
    TD

  2. #177
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    Man has this dead horse been beatin to death. I think it is time to agree to dis-agree, but then again that aint no fun.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    I think it is time to agree to dis-agree, , .
    Never! Are you also to be hailed as the one Late Great "coach"-cancellation deniers (Comment 174)? Will you also keep quiet?

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Never! Are you also to be hailed as the one Late Great "coach"-cancellation deniers (Comment 174)? Will you also keep quiet?
    I am the know-it-all of all knowing, so yes, I am the Greatest "Coach". Now go set on the bench....I'll call you when it is your turn to play.

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    I am the know-it-all of all knowing, so yes, I am the Greatest "Coach". Now go set on the bench....I'll call you when it is your turn to play.
    God bless you coach, ,!

    “You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you. For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are prudent in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are distinguished, but we are without honor. To this present hour we are both hungry and thirsty, and are poorly clothed, and are roughly treated, and are homeless; and we toil, working with our own hands; when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; we have become as the scum of the world, the dregs of all things, even until now.” (I Cor 4:8-13)

    “Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.”, , “I did away with childish things” (I Cor 11:1, 1 Corinthians 13:11)

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    God bless you coach, ,!

    “You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you. For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are prudent in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are distinguished, but we are without honor. To this present hour we are both hungry and thirsty, and are poorly clothed, and are roughly treated, and are homeless; and we toil, working with our own hands; when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure; when we are slandered, we try to conciliate; we have become as the scum of the world, the dregs of all things, even until now.” (I Cor 4:8-13)

    “Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.”, , “I did away with childish things” (I Cor 11:1, 1 Corinthians 13:11)
    You did all right up and until you got to the rich part. I am so poor I can't even spell abel.........

  7. #182
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    buck gardner posted:
    We speak in tongues as led by our Lord. He and he alone gives us his Spirit and wemay get it as the finishing act of his work or before we finish what we have been commanded as seen in ACTS 8,10 AND 19.

    No place in acts 8, 10, or 19 commands you to speak in tongues in any way at any time. If you think I am mistaken, please cite the specific scriptures that do so. There is no command in the whole Bible to speak in tongues.
    ALL MUST AND WILL SPEAK IN TONGUES IF SAVED, if not, a person is a pretender and liar.

    So you ignore 1 Corinthians 12:30. I seeeeee.

    You will be lost and split hell wide open and eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire for not being saved and speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.

    I have been saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not by speaking in tongues. No scripture anywhere requires tongues for salvation.

    1 CO. 12:30 This is speaking of a Gift of The Spirit which God gives severally (singularly) as he wills and is not the Spirit baptism promised and given to all and in the same way of speaking in tongues 1 CO. 12;13, MARK 16:16, ACTS 2:38-39
    read those and don't just skirt them.

    None of those p***ages makes any requirement for tongues speaking. Neither does any of those p***ages make tongues in those cases a different gift than the tongues that not everyone speaks according to 1 Corinthians 12:30.

    Your manmade requirement that people speak in tongues to be saved is demonic, since it places manmade requirements for salvation that Jesus already purchaced for us.


  8. #183
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    Jim posted:
    Why not? Has God taken some gifts away from His Church? I have had many tell me that tongues were given so that the gospel could be spread to all the peoples of the world no matter what their language. The only problem with holding that tongues is always a language the is understood by people of this world at least in some corner of the world is that Paul spoke is an UNKNOWN tongue. And when He spoke in tongues he wasn't speaking to men but to God:
    1 Cor 14:2
    For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
    Jimbo you have a PROBLEM. the word "unknown" in that p***age does not appear in any of the original-language GREEK TEXTS; it was an INSERT WORD, inserted without warrant by the kjv translators. IN REALITY the word 'unknown' doesn't belong there.

    While I see that it is far better to teach and preach the word of life than to speak in tongues, speaking in an unknown tongue can't be denied as a Biblical spiritual gift. Even though this gift adds no edification to the Church, it does edifiy those that it has been given.

    ONLY if it is GENUINE tongues, not the gibberish and mindless babbling of the pentcostal versions.

    Personally I have not been given this gift, I will never try to fake or force it.

    You mentioned that tongues 'edifies the believer,' and asked if that wasn't a good enough reason. . .

    WHERE IN SCRIPTURE does it make 'self-edification' a good reason for anything? We are to be SERVANTS to each other and the LORD. Not self-centered idiots.

    in the Name of Jesus Christ,
    morefish

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Jim posted:
    Why not? Has God taken some gifts away from His Church? I have had many tell me that tongues were given so that the gospel could be spread to all the peoples of the world no matter what their language. The only problem with holding that tongues is always a language the is understood by people of this world at least in some corner of the world is that Paul spoke is an UNKNOWN tongue. And when He spoke in tongues he wasn't speaking to men but to God:
    1 Cor 14:2
    For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
    Jimbo you have a PROBLEM. the word "unknown" in that p***age does not appear in any of the original-language GREEK TEXTS; it was an INSERT WORD, inserted without warrant by the kjv translators. IN REALITY the word 'unknown' doesn't belong there.

    While I see that it is far better to teach and preach the word of life than to speak in tongues, speaking in an unknown tongue can't be denied as a Biblical spiritual gift. Even though this gift adds no edification to the Church, it does edifiy those that it has been given.

    ONLY if it is GENUINE tongues, not the gibberish and mindless babbling of the pentcostal versions.

    Personally I have not been given this gift, I will never try to fake or force it.

    You mentioned that tongues 'edifies the believer,' and asked if that wasn't a good enough reason. . .

    WHERE IN SCRIPTURE does it make 'self-edification' a good reason for anything? We are to be SERVANTS to each other and the LORD. Not self-centered idiots.

    in the Name of Jesus Christ,
    morefish
    I haven't seen any evidence of outward gifts of any kind, but who knows it may have happened somewhere in the world for these last 1900 years.

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by jean View Post
    Oneness folks.
    Did you speak in tongues before or after you were saved? Please include scripture.
    How do you interpret 1 Cor.12:30?
    Do you teach all must speak in tongues? If so, why?
    What happens if other christians don't receive this gift?

    God bless,
    p2
    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah !

    THERE! Did I just speak in tongues?

    Just about as much as those I have heard in many pentecostal churches! What's different?

    No REAL meaning. The same phonemes repeated over and over again. If you want to pretend to 'interpret' it, go ahead!

  11. #186
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah !

    THERE! Did I just speak in tongues?

    Just about as much as those I have heard in many pentecostal churches! What's different?

    No REAL meaning. The same phonemes repeated over and over again. If you want to pretend to 'interpret' it, go ahead!
    More ignorant spite against a gift awarded by the Spirit, not man. Or did you not notice Jean’s request of v30?

    “distributing to each one individually just as He wills.” (I Cor 12:11)

    Just because it is seen as abused, (and I believe it has to some extent), is no reason to imperil yourself with I Cor 14:39. But maybe so if by willing decree subject the good sense God gave you somehow spoil the mind from something so foolish that He never intended for contemporary man. Yes, how foolish to think we are “all that are afar off” (Acts 2:39) for such an enablement.

    But then, maybe that handling of “foolishness” was His plan as well to retain a method to know obedience by (I Cor 2:14). Do you pray as I that those in the valley of decision sort this out correctly?

  12. #187
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    The unknown tongue is also unknown to the speaker.

    1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

    1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  13. #188
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    well.........its a lonely reason.

    The context of where this type of personal edification is talked about in the Text is such that while there is some good merit for private use of the gift....its not actually the aim of God for this gift to be a private gift.
    Actually it is the aim of God for this type of tongues is for personal edification. 1Corinthians 14:2 says that the speaker is not speaking to men but to God for no man understands. 1 Corinthians 12:10 says that there is divers kinds of tongues, so if you hear of tongues being used in one fashion, don’t think that it is the only way for tongues to be used.

    1Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

    1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:



    The gift was aimed at "SPREADING" the good news across the world to different lands and peoples...
    In Acts chapter two that was the purpose of tongues, but that is not the only purpose. (See 1Corinthians 14:2 and 12:10)



    This other idea, (that we are to seek the private use of the gift as part of a way to receive personal / private edification) seems to me to be like saying that God wants you to stay home from church so you can clean garage.

    Yes, having a clean garage is nice...."For You!"
    But it has no effect at all at building up the community of faith in your church....
    and your lack of attendance and personal input in your church is more of an issue now beyond any personal gain you may receive by getting all the old paint cans lined up by color in your garage.
    Why would you even think that? Didn’t Paul make that idea disappear when he said not forsaking the ***embling of ourselves together? (See Hebrews 10:25)

    The scripture is clear that this is the way it works. It is not that we are seeking edification; it is the result of speaking in tongues. Why do you want to make it seem to be a greed issue on the believer’s part when we are told to do it? (See 1Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues)

    Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the ***embling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching

    1Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

    1Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.



    Speaking to me in an unknown tongue may edify you, but its worthless to me until I find out what you said...
    In this situation when speaking in tongues you were not invited or you too would have been edified.



    And if I cant ever find out what you said, then I would suggest you dont bother speaking at all in the first place...
    That would depend on what the occasion for speaking in tongues is.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  14. #189
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    1Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

    1Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

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