No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Vlad III]

mod edit

So now the big question is, if others agree that you are either 100% true or 100% false, how do you reconcile people that hold a belief about Jesus that might not be held by others? Are they therefore in 100% error?

If a Baptist person believes that Jesus might've been married on earth, does that make him 100% in error about Jesus, on every issue, so as to merit God sending him to Hell for eternity?

mod edit - Do not start threads aimed at specific board members.

[nrajeff]

Good question: If having one heterodox belief ABOUT Jesus equals belief in a FALSE Jesus, "another Jesus who cannot save anyone," then how do they ALSO manage to allow each other la***ude of heterodox beliefs on what they arbitrarily deem "the non-essentials" ?
I think maybe they go into denial mode as a way of avoiding the obvious illogical implications of their reasoning.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Good question: If having one heterodox belief ABOUT Jesus equals belief in a FALSE Jesus, "another Jesus who cannot save anyone," then how do they ALSO manage to allow each other la***ude of heterodox beliefs on what they arbitrarily deem "the non-essentials" ?

I think that everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible especially in areas that are not revealed to us in the scriptures. But there are core beliefs about Jesus that distinguish Christians from non Christians and these beliefs are clearly laid out by God in his word.

Here are just a couple of examples.
1. Jesus is God and has always been God. This is in distinction from LDS who believe that Jesus has NOT always been God but has been created from pre existing substrate.

2. Jesus is the creator of Satan NOT the brother of Satan (the same applies for you and Jesus not being brothers)

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think that everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible especially in areas that are not revealed to us in the scriptures. But there are core beliefs about Jesus that distinguish Christians from non Christians and these beliefs are clearly laid out by God in his word.

2. Jesus is the creator of Satan NOT the brother of Satan (the same applies for you and Jesus not being brothers)

I don't think it is "clearly laid out" that Jesus CREATED Satan.

So does that mean if someone believed the Father created Satan, yest believed all the other things about Jesus as found in scripture, that God would send him to everlasting Hell and torment?

Seems kind of harsh, donchathink?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

I don't think it is "clearly laid out" that Jesus CREATED Satan.

So does that mean if someone believed the Father created Satan, yest believed all the other things about Jesus as found in scripture, that God would send him to everlasting Hell and torment?

Seems kind of harsh, donchathink?

Don't you think that it is a big difference between God and satan being brothers verses God creating us and Satan?

If you believe in a false god then you can't reasonably expect to live with the true God again, "donchathink"?

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Don't you think that it is a big difference between God and satan being brothers verses God creating us and Satan?

If you believe in a false god then you can't reasonably expect to live with the true God again, "donchathink"?

If someone believes God the FATHER created Lucifer instead of God the SON creating Lucifer, I can't imagine God, on the day of judgement, saying:

"You believed in Jesus Christ as your Savior. You had faith in him. You tried to emulate him. You tried to live like he did. You loved your neighbor. You did all that I commanded of you. But since you believed that the FATHER created Lucifer instead of the SON, you must spend your eternal existence in a boiling vat of lava while in perpetual torment and gnashing of teeth."

Is that what you believe God is like?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

I don't think it is "clearly laid out" that Jesus CREATED Satan.

So does that mean if someone believed the Father created Satan, yest believed all the other things about Jesus as found in scripture, that God would send him to everlasting Hell and torment?

Seems kind of harsh, donchathink?

It is so clearly spelled out that a person must close his eyes and ears not to know ablot it:

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

All things, all powers, all dominions.. What is there about all things you can't understand? You are so filled with the teachings of a prophet who spoke in the name of false gods that you can't hear God's truth from the Bible.. All things means Satan as will as a families pet dog..

I have explained the suffering of Jesus to you before and you rejected it. Here your own quote agrees with what I have been saying about the nature of God all alone and all you can think of doing with it is to try to belittle the Bible.. And you said you believe it.. That sound like you are not being truthful, again! Jesus is the Only Person who ever lived who could make an eternal sacrifice for sin.. He is God and by nature Omnipresent.. But your mind can't or won't believe Him.. That is your failing not His..
IHS jim

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by James Banta

It is so clearly spelled out that a person must close his eyes and ears not to know ablot it:

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

All things, all powers, all dominions.. What is there about all things you can't understand? You are so filled with the teachings of a prophet who spoke in the name of false gods that you can't hear God's truth from the Bible.. All things means Satan as will as a families pet dog..

I have explained the suffering of Jesus to you before and you rejected it. Here your own quote agrees with what I have been saying about the nature of God all alone and all you can think of doing with it is to try to belittle the Bible.. And you said you believe it.. That sound like you are not being truthful, again! Jesus is the Only Person who ever lived who could make an eternal sacrifice for sin.. He is God and by nature Omnipresent.. But your mind can't or won't believe Him.. That is your failing not His..
IHS jim

What are you talking about? You always throw in 12 false arguments when trying to defend one. Too much time to try and refute all of your false attacks here. Just suffice it to say we believe Jesus and all he said and did.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

What are you talking about? You always throw in 12 false arguments when trying to defend one. Too much time to try and refute all of your false attacks here. Just suffice it to say we believe Jesus and all he said and did.

I know you can't understand statements like Jesus created ALL things.. That is too hard for you to understand.. "All" is a word that is inclusive of everything.. If it exists Jesus created it.. You either don't believe Satan exists or you doubt the word of God on the subject PROVING that at least one mormon who calls himself Vlad on forums that question his church as not being truthful. He denies the Jesus of the Bible.. The Bible says that Jesus created all things even to the point of creating the spirits of all men, and doing that within them.. You are contradicting yourself as all with eyes to see with can see..
IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

I don't think it is "clearly laid out" that Jesus CREATED Satan.

So does that mean if someone believed the Father created Satan, yest believed all the other things about Jesus as found in scripture, that God would send him to everlasting Hell and torment?

Seems kind of harsh, donchathink?

I agree Jesus (God) didn't create Satan.. He did however create a beautiful angel name Lucifer.. Jesus (God) created this being with a free will and allowed him to make a decision between goodness and error.. What does the Bible say he chose.

Isaiah 14:12-14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

This would tell us that Lucifer change himself in to being Satan. He was created pure and sinless and existed in the presence of God until sin was found in him. IHS jim

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think that everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible especially in areas that are not revealed to us in the scriptures. But there are core beliefs about Jesus that distinguish Christians from non Christians and these beliefs are clearly laid out by God in his word.

Jim never even entertained the thought that "everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible". Oh no in Jim's world everything is measured in absolutes. It is either the truth or a lie.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Sorry but there is no entering your truth scale unless the condition I stated are met first. Unless you want to say A is absolute truth and Z is absolute lie. In which case there is no letter between then. If you back away from truth you fall immediately into LIES. All truth or all lies. There is no half way. A half truth is still nothing more than a lie. If I took a gl*** half full of pure water and mixed in half a gl*** of untreated water before it enters the treatment plant what I have is a full gl*** of filth. IHS Jim

Where in this quote is there room to agree on "core beliefs about Jesus that distinguish Christians from non Christians" and disagree on other issues that are not "clearly laid out by God in his word"? According to Jim this is like drinking "a full gl*** of filth". Remember he said that "There is no half way".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Jim never even entertained the thought that "everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible". Oh no in Jim's world everything is measured in absolutes. It is either the truth or a lie.

False religions usually have bits of truth mixed with the falsehood. If this were not the case then very few people would be caught up within it's grasp. As I have noted before there is slight variation within each group (i.e. Mormonism and Christianity). I see that each group as a circle instead of a dot. However, I see these two circle as not overlapping.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Billyray

False religions usually have bits of truth mixed with the falsehood. If this were not the case then very few people would be caught up within it's grasp. As I have noted before there is slight variation within each group (i.e. Mormonism and Christianity). I see that each group as a circle instead of a dot. However, I see these two circle as not overlapping.

You say false religions have truth and falsehoods. But the issue is whether or not there is a religion that is 100% true WITHOUT any falsehoods. And falsehoods can be simple opinions on doctrine that are not true, not necessarily blatent false teachings. So James is saying that the church is either 100% true or 100% false.

So how do you reconcile a church where there are varying degrees of opinions that may or may not be actual truth? Are those churches now 100% FALSE or is there room for speculation, conjecture, and opinions on issues?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

And falsehoods can be simple opinions on doctrine that are not true, not necessarily blatant false teachings.

The key to answering your question is in your own statement above. The LDS church HAS "blatant false teachings" about Jesus, God the Father, and the gospel. So in this sense it is easy to spot truth from fiction.

[urloony]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The key to answering your question is in your own statement above. The LDS church HAS "blatant false teachings" about Jesus, God the Father, and the gospel. So in this sense it is easy to spot truth from fiction.

False compared to what? Your dogma?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by urloony

False compared to what? Your dogma?

The Bible.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible.

LDS can reconcile thei belief about Jesus with the Bible quite easily. So it appears your argument is about whose interpretation of the Bible is the one that is 100% inerrant. Anything else and you have a 100% false belief about Jesus according to at least one LDS-critic.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

LDS can reconcile their belief about Jesus with the Bible quite easily.

Lets start with these two.

Where can you read that Jesus was born to a Heavenly Mother in the pre earth life?

Where can you read the Jesus has not always been God but became one of many gods during his progression?

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Lets start with these two.

Where can you read that Jesus was born to a Heavenly Mother in the pre earth life?

Where can you read the Jesus has not always been God but became one of many gods during his progression?

Oh, you are looking for specific verses.

No, there isn't a specific verse that states what you are looking for above. Just like there's no specific verse that says Jesus is the creator of Satan. But we look at the teaching as a whole and we can reasonably and logically make conclusions.

For example, we can rightfully conclude that Jesus is a spiritual child of the Father, since Jesus even refers to the Father as HIS father. And we also can conlude that eternal unions of man and woman are of God (Adam & Eve) and we know that it is a law of God to be married in order to have offspring. So again a logical conclusion can be made that the Father also has an eternal companion.

Now the question is, can you show a LDS person BIBLICALLY that these things cannot be understood as the LDS see them?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

Oh, you are looking for specific verses.

No, there isn't a specific verse that states what you are looking for above.

Vlad, that is the problem, there is no Biblical support for your position. You simply make it up and label it theology and you believe it.

Christians don't believe in a Heavenly Mother because there is no Biblical verses that say there is a Heavenly Mother. Christians don't believe that God the Father and his wife had spiritual children in heaven because the Bible does not teach this. The problem is that Mormons make up these concepts that simply are not there.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Vlad, that is the problem, there is no Biblical support for your position. You simply make it up and label it theology and you believe it.

You seem to be missing the point. But we'll use YOURlogic in a second and see if it helps or hurts your accusation.

Christians don't believe in a Heavenly Mother because there is no Biblical verses that say there is a Heavenly Mother.

There is no biblical verse that says thare is a "Trinity", yet you believe it exists.

Atomic handgrenade diffused.

Christians don't believe that God the Father and his wife had spiritual children in heaven because the Bible does not teach this. The problem is that Mormons make up these concepts that simply are not there.

Again, we take the Bible as a whole, and along with other scriptures/ modern revelation, understand a bigger picture than the one you non-LDS see in regards to our existence and purpose. Yet these do not CONFLICT with the biblical accounts.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

There is no biblical verse that says thare is a "Trinity", yet you believe it exists.

Atomic handgrenade diffused.

Vlad, the word "Trinity" is not is the Bible but the teaching about the "Trinity" is clearly present. That is the difference between LDS and Christians. LDS simply add theology that clearly is not there. For example it does not say "Heavenly Mother" but if it said God was married then that would cons***ute that God had a wife. But you and I both know that there is not any evidence in the Bible that God has a wife.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Vlad, the word "Trinity" is not is the Bible but the teaching about the "Trinity" is clearly present. That is the difference between LDS and Christians. LDS simply add theology that clearly is not there. For example it does not say "Heavenly Mother" but if it said God was married then that would cons***ute that God had a wife. But you and I both know that there is not any evidence in the Bible that God has a wife.

You seem agree with me now!

One can 'see' a teaching 'clearly' to justify their beliefs.

Now, can you tell us which church/ religion is 100% perfect in doctrine?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

You seem agree with me now!

One can 'see' a teaching 'clearly' to justify their beliefs.

Now, can you tell us which church/ religion is 100% perfect in doctrine?

I don't agree with you at all. The word Trinity is not in the Bible but the teaching about the Trinity is. For the unique concepts of Mormonism there is not these teachings to support your theology.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't agree with you at all. The word Trinity is not in the Bible but the teaching about the Trinity is. For the unique concepts of Mormonism there is not these teachings to support your theology.

LOL...you DO agree with me, since that is what I've been saying all along. Nothing in the Bible REFUTES LDS doctrine.

For example, baptism for the dead is mentioned in the Bible, but only the LDS understand it in its true context. The verse in the Bible about it SUPPORTS the LDS concept, not REFUTES it.