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Thread: No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

  1. #26
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I don't agree with you at all. The word Trinity is not in the Bible but the teaching about the Trinity is. For the unique concepts of Mormonism there is not these teachings to support your theology.
    LOL...you DO agree with me, since that is what I've been saying all along. Nothing in the Bible REFUTES LDS doctrine.

    For example, baptism for the dead is mentioned in the Bible, but only the LDS understand it in its true context. The verse in the Bible about it SUPPORTS the LDS concept, not REFUTES it.

  2. #27
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    Nothing in the Bible REFUTES LDS doctrine.
    Vlad, are you kidding me?

    Here are just two examples.

    The Bible teaches that God has been God from everlasting to everlasting. LDS teach that God was not always God but was a man.

    The Bible teaches that the Aaronic priesthood is restricted exclusively to the tribe of Levi. If you check your Patriarchal blessing you are likely from the line of Joseph via one of his two sons.

  3. #28
    nrajeff
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    The Old Testament teaches that a child would be born of a virgin, and that the child would be called the mighty God, among other things.

    The New Testament teaches that the Great I am became a mortal baby who became a man when He grew into manhood, and that He even referred to Himself as the son of man whose father was the only true God.

    What Bible are YOU using, that has those parts deleted?
    Last edited by nrajeff; 04-22-2010 at 01:17 PM.

  4. #29
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    The Old Testament teaches that a child would be born of a virgin, and that the child would be called the mighty God, among other things.

    The New Testament teaches that the Great I am became a mortal baby who became a man when He grew into manhood.

    What Bible are YOU using, that has those parts deleted?
    Jesus never ceased to be God when he came down to this earth. Jesus has been God from everlasting to everlasting. This conflicts with the LDS concept that both God the Father and Jesus were not always God. The verses that you provided do not support your claim.

  5. #30
    Vlad III
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    Quote:
    If a Baptist person believes that Jesus might've been married on earth, does that make him 100% in error about Jesus, on every issue, so as to merit God sending him to Hell for eternity?
    James Banta's reply:

    YES!

    ---So really nothing more needs be said. Unless a person believes only that which is stated in the Bible and does so in full agreement with people like James, God will punishthem eternally in a vat of boiling lava for eternity.

    How sad to have such an unmerciful and unjust God, James. Definitely not worthy of my worship.

  6. #31
    nrajeff
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    The word Trinity is not in the Bible but the teaching about the Trinity is.
    Although the WORD "Arianism" is not in the Bible, Arian Christians claimed that it contains teachings that SUPPORT Arianism. They believed that so strongly, that they got into fights with Trinitarian Christians, and the emperor got so fed up with the fighting between the 2 groups of Christians that he ordered a meeting of its bishops (Christianity had abandoned the apostles as leaders by then) and told them to settle on one offical theology/Christology, so that the fighting in his empire would end.

  7. #32
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Jesus never ceased to be God when he came down to this earth.
    ---According to the Bible, Jesus was not a candidate for inheriting His Father's kingdom until AFTER He had become a man and had the experiences He experienced on this planet. That probably contradicts what your preacher told you, so you need to decide whether you're gonna believe your preacher, or the Bible.

  8. #33
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    Although the WORD "Arianism" is not in the Bible, Arian Christians claimed that it contains teachings that SUPPORT Arianism.
    Right, so you take their beliefs and compare them with the Bible and find out which side is correct. For example that is what we are trying to show you. You make a theological claim, the Christians make a claim and then we go to the word of God to sort it out. You believe that God and Jesus have not always been God but became separate gods during their progression. Interesting enough that you brought up "Arianism" because LDS beliefs are similar to the Arian heresy,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
    "Arius taught that God the Father and the Son did not exist together eternally."

  9. #34
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Right, so you take their beliefs and compare them with the Bible and find out which side is correct.
    ---Many people have done that to Trinitarianism and found out that it's not correct. And found out that neither is Arianism. You BOTH blew it. That's what happens when a group of Christians runs out of apostles and prophets. Remember what Williams and Wesley and Fos**** said about the state of mainstream Christendom.

  10. #35
    Mesenja
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post

    False religions usually have bits of truth mixed with the falsehood. If this were not the case then very few people would be caught up within it's grasp. As I have noted before there is slight variation within each group (i.e. Mormonism and Christianity). I see that each group as a circle instead of a dot. However, I see these two circle as not overlapping.



    Tell me if I am supposed to be aiming for the Protestant or Catholic bullseye.

  11. #36
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Many people have done that to Trinitarianism and found out that it's not correct. And found out that neither is Arianism. You BOTH blew it. That's what happens when a group of Christians runs out of apostles and prophets. Remember what Williams and Wesley and Fos**** said about the state of mainstream Christendom.
    Here is the basis for the Trinity. What part do you take issue with?

    1) The Father is diety;
    2) The Son is deity;
    3) The Holy Spirit is deity;
    4) The Father is distinct from the Son and Holy Spirit;
    5) The Son is distinct from the Father and Holy Spirit;
    6) The Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and Son;

    7) There exists only one deity/god

  12. #37
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Tell me if I am supposed to be aiming for the Protestant or Catholic bullseye.
    You are aiming for the Biblical bullseye. Remember that the LDS have many unique beliefs that are extra-Biblical.

    So when the Bible speaks about one God, you don't believe heretical beliefs that there are many gods. When the Bible speaks about salvation by faith you don't make an endless list of things to do so that you might be saved (LDS exaltation).

  13. #38
    Mesenja
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    Default What is that bullseye again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post

    You are aiming for the Biblical bullseye. Remember that the Latter-day Saints have many unique beliefs that are extra-Biblical.

    So when the Bible speaks about one God,you don't believe heretical beliefs that there are many gods. When the Bible speaks about salvation by faith you don't make an endless list of things to do so that you might be saved (LDS exaltation).
    Both Protestantism and Catholicism claim to be Christian. Which of these circles overlap more with the Biblical bullseye? And if it is Protestantism then is Calvinism or Arminianism that most overlaps this circle? Just to set the record straight I have never been considered a heretic. To be a heretic one once have had to have been a Christian.
    Last edited by Mesenja; 04-24-2010 at 09:29 AM.

  14. #39
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Both Protestantism and Catholicism claim to be Christian.
    As does Mormonism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    I have to have once been a Christian to have beliefs that are heretical to Christianity.
    No you don't.

  15. #40
    Mesenja
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    Default Yes I do

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    No you don't.
    A heretic was once a professed believer who now maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.



    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    As does Mormonism.
    This doesn't answer my question BillRay. Care to try again?

  16. #41
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    A heretic was once a professed believer who now maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.
    Always trying to twist things to get some kind of small win, don't you. Note that I did not say heretic but "heretical beliefs". A heretic and a heretical belief are not the same thing.

    Even a heretic does not require you to have been a member at one time as you seem to insist.

    Main Entry: her·e·tic
    Pronunciation: \ˈher-ə-ˌtik, ˈhe-rə-\
    Function: noun
    Date: 14th century
    1 : a dissenter from established religious dogma; especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth
    2 : one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine : nonconformist


    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Just to set the record straight I have never been considered a heretic. To be a heretic one once have had to have been a Christian.
    Number 2 from definition above.
    2 : one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine

  17. #42
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Here is the basis for the Trinity. What part do you take issue with?

    1) The Father is diety;
    2) The Son is deity;
    3) The Holy Spirit is deity;
    4) The Father is distinct from the Son and Holy Spirit;
    5) The Son is distinct from the Father and Holy Spirit;
    6) The Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and Son;

    7) There exists only one deity/god
    ---Which parts did YOU take issue with when you were a TBM RM?

  18. #43
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Which parts did YOU take issue with when you were a TBM RM?
    As an LDS member I bought it hook line and sinker.

  19. #44
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    James Banta's reply:

    YES!

    ---So really nothing more needs be said. Unless a person believes only that which is stated in the Bible and does so in full agreement with people like James, God will punishthem eternally in a vat of boiling lava for eternity.

    How sad to have such an unmerciful and unjust God, James. Definitely not worthy of my worship.
    This is the word of God
    Acts 4:12
    Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    No other way Only by Jesus the one true God..
    John 14:6
    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    There is only one true and living God
    Isaiah 43:10
    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    You want to point the finger at me for having a closed mind on who can come to God and who God is take it up with Him not me.. If such a Being is not worthy of you, I praise Him for not having to witness your judgment and ***ignment to your place in His wrath.. This was sever blasphemy but you made these statements against the Father and the Son. You can still be forgiven of such evil. But it will require you to come to know who He is.. IHS jim

  20. #45
    Mesenja
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    Default Which bullseye Billy_Ray?

    You still haven't answered this question. There are two big targets in the Christian world. There is the Protestant target and the Catholic target. It does no good to say just aim for the Christian target. Both targets in this ****ogy have radically different bullseyes as there is major theological differences in their soteriology. I will leave aside pursuing your rabbit trail of debating this distinction without a difference at a latter time.

  21. #46
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Which bullseye Billy_Ray?
    You still haven't answered this question. There are two big targets in the Christian world. There is the Protestant target and the Catholic target. It does no good to say just aim for the Christian target. Both targets in this ****ogy have radically different bullseyes as there is major theological differences in their soteriology. I will leave aside pursuing your rabbit trail of debating this distinction without a difference at a latter time.
    You are aiming for the Biblical bullseye Mesenja--I have already answered this one but you must of missed it. BTW Catholicism and Protestant have overlap in their beliefs. LDS and Protestants have very little overlap in their beliefs--LDS are way out there. But since you know that I am Protestant it wouldn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that I think that the bullseye is closer to the Protestant position.

  22. #47
    Mesenja
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    Default Is close enough good enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post

    You are aiming for the Biblical bullseye Mesenja-I have already answered this one but you must of missed it. By the way Catholicism and Protestant have overlap in their beliefs. LDS and Protestants have very little overlap in their beliefs--LDS are way out there. But since you know that I am Protestant it wouldn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that I think that the bullseye is closer to the Protestant position.
    Is this the same as almost hitting the target,we almost hit the bullseye?

  23. #48
    Blueskies
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    Vlad:
    I am new here but I must put in my two cents. As I see things from a Born Again Christian stand point, there is NOT any religion existing today that is correct. No church can or should call themselves correct or "TRUE" which is the case with Mormonism and the Catholics. Each claiming they were given this right by either God, who supposedly appeared to Joseph Smith and the Pope saying they have their authority straight from the Apostle Peter. Sorry, but the only way to judge any church is by the things that they teach. Any church that does not hold the Bible up to be the word of God and teach Christ's birth, death and resurrection and that we can ONLY be saved through his grace and NOTHING else, is NOT a church to ever consider.
    Mormonism teaches a false Jesus, for what your faith teaches is that your Jesus is the brother of Satan and not God. Your faith teaches that he sweat for your sins and that hanging on a cross was nothing. Your Jesus is a weak want to be but until you accept the "TRUE" Jesus of the Bible, you eternal destiny WILL be the Lake of Fire. I am only warning you, for you can read this for yourself in Revelations. As for the way you speak to other members here, it is atrocious for if you were trying to convince me to join your church, from what I've read from you, I am already turning my back and running as far as I can. What a poor example you have shown here.
    Last edited by Blueskies; 05-04-2010 at 08:30 PM.

  24. #49
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesenja View Post
    Is this the same as almost hitting the target,we almost hit the bullseye?
    Mesenja, the bullseye is the Bible This seems so clear to me, I can't understand how you are missing this. You are getting it backwards. You are aiming for a church such as the LDS church and then going to the Bible to get proof texts to support your church, rather that going to the Bible to get your doctrine and then comparing the church to that standard. You are trying to focus between variations within the Protestant faith OR between Protestants and Catholicism yet your religion is clear to the right of norm. Instead of quibbling between A and B you should focus your attention to why your beliefs are completely outside of Biblical Christianity. That should be your focus.

    A (Biblical Standard)
    ----->Church B
    ------------->Church C
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>P (Mormonism)

  25. #50
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    Vlad:
    I am new here but I must put in my two cents. As I see things from a Born Again Christian stand point, there is NOT any religion existing today that is correct. No church can or should call themselves correct or "TRUE" which is the case with Mormonism and the Catholics. Each claiming they were given this right by either God, who supposedly appeared to Joseph Smith and the Pope saying they have their authority straight from the Apostle Peter. Sorry, but the only way to judge any church is by the things that they teach. Any church that does not hold the Bible up to be the word of God and teach Christ's birth, death and resurrection and that we can ONLY be saved through his grace and NOTHING else, is NOT a church to ever consider.
    Thanks for your opinion. LDS believe in the Bible and also look to Jesus for our salvation.

    Mormonism teaches a false Jesus, for what your faith teaches is that your Jesus is the brother of Satan and not God.
    Not entirely true, but I understand your need as a critic to TELL me what LDS believe.

    faith teaches that he sweat of your sins and that hanging on a cross was nothing.
    Again, not accurate but again, I understand your need to misrepresent my faith.

    Your Jesus is a weak want to be but until you accept the "TRUE" Jesus of the Bible, you eternal destiny WILL be the Lake of Fire.
    I think you mean "wannabe". But nonetheless you are still incorrect in your ***essment of LDS

    As for the way you speak to other members here, it is atrocious for if you were trying to convince me to join your church, from what I've read from you, I am already turning my back and running as far as I can. What a poor example you have shown here.
    mod edit

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