No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You DID insert the word,EVEN if you're transcribing it from somewhere else...

I have no clue as to what your objection is.

1 Peter 3:21
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not putting away of the filth of the flesh,but the answer of a good conscience toward God),by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---You mean like sola fide Evans do, inserting "only" into "It is by faith that we are saved" ???

It is not that we inserted an "only", but rather you forgot the rest of the quote.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It is not that we inserted an "only", but rather you forgot the rest of the quote.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

---YOU forgot that "works" probably referred to the statutes of the Torah, NOT to the commandments that Jesus gave as part of the NEW covenant. NOWHERE in the NT does Jesus say "These are my suggestions, and you don't need to obey them."

And maybe you forgot to keep reading up to the verse in James
that says "not by faith only."

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---You mean like sola fide Evans do, inserting "only" into "It is by faith that we are saved" ???

Hardly. When Paul says through GRACE, by FAITH...and NOT OF WORKS. He has exluded works, making it "sola fide".

Quit being obdurate, jeff.

[Father_JD]

Now that's Mormon wishful thinking, i.e. "works" in the OT mean ONLY "ceremonial" law, jeff.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Now that's Mormon wishful thinking, i.e. "works" in the OT mean ONLY "ceremonial" law, jeff.

---Actually, it's YOU is wishing--wishing that I'd said it ONLY means ceremonial law.

I did some research on the verses in question. What do you think of THIS guy's ****ysis, which seems to agree with the PRO-LDS position?

Catholics oftentimes will just quote Phil 2:12, which says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. If salvation was guaranteed there would be no need to fear and tremble. Indeed it is an important text that in and of itself shows that the Protestant interpretation of Ephesians 2 is impossible. However, v. 13 shows how we can work it out. It is because it is God at work within us. Thus, it is God’s grace that enables us to do so. Again, God’s grace is an active force within us, not a looking away from how horrible we really are. He calls us to be blameless and innocent, children of God (v. 15)....

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/ephesians2.html

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Actually, it's YOU is wishing--wishing that I'd said it ONLY means ceremonial law.

I did some research on the verses in question. What do you think of THIS guy's ****ysis, which seems to agree with the PRO-LDS position?

Catholics oftentimes will just quote Phil 2:12, which says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. If salvation was guaranteed there would be no need to fear and tremble. Indeed it is an important text that in and of itself shows that the Protestant interpretation of Ephesians 2 is impossible. However, v. 13 shows how we can work it out. It is because it is God at work within us. Thus, it is God’s grace that enables us to do so. Again, God’s grace is an active force within us, not a looking away from how horrible we really are. He calls us to be blameless and innocent, children of God (v. 15)....

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/ephesians2.html

I agree it's God's grace that enables the works. They are also HIS works that he prepared for us. I don't really disagree with what you said (I haven't read the article, though). He calls us to be blameless and innocent, through Jesus Christ (not of our own doing). The works do not cleanse us or "save" us. Only Christ's blood can do that. The works are as a result of salvation, not a means to salvation.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Libby

I agree it's God's grace that enables the works. They are also HIS works that he prepared for us. I don't really disagree with what you said (I haven't read the article, though). He calls us to be blameless and innocent, through Jesus Christ (not of our own doing).

---I don't care who gets the credit, the result--that the person ends up being a person who no longer commits a sin, and is therefore blameless--is the important thing. As you (should) know, LDS doctrine is that were it not for Jesus, NO good thing that any of us did would matter much.

The works do not cleanse us or "save" us. Only Christ's blood can do that.

----You should know that LDS doctrine is that none of us could be saved were it not for Jesus' sacrifice.

The works are as a result of salvation, not a means to salvation.

--Glad to read that you don't disagree with the conclusion that

"if salvation was guaranteed there would be no need to fear and tremble. Indeed it is an important text that in and of itself shows that the Protestant interpretation of Ephesians 2 is impossible"

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---I don't care who gets the credit, the result--that the person ends up being a person who no longer commits a sin, and is therefore blameless--is the important thing. As you (should) know, LDS doctrine is that were it not for Jesus, NO good thing that any of us did would matter much.


----You should know that LDS doctrine is that none of us could be saved were it not for Jesus' sacrifice.


--Glad to read that you don't disagree with the conclusion that

"if salvation was guaranteed there would be no need to fear and tremble. Indeed it is an important text that in and of itself shows that the Protestant interpretation of Ephesians 2 is impossible"

Our differences are in my last sentence. I believe we are saved based solely on faith in Christ's sacrifice. You believe we need to do something more, in order to be saved.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Libby

Our differences are in my last sentence. I believe we are saved based solely on faith in Christ's sacrifice. You believe we need to do something more, in order to be saved.

----You might be interested in this article I found:

WHAT IS THE "GIFT OF GOD"?
A Study of Ephesians 2:8-9

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org...ed/godgift.htm

Let me know what you think.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

----You might be interested in this article I found:

WHAT IS THE "GIFT OF GOD"?
A Study of Ephesians 2:8-9

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org...ed/godgift.htm

Let me know what you think.

This person believes faith comes from "works"? Wow. The Bible very clearly states that faith is a gift from God.

Heb 12:2.....Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith.

Romans 12:3.....as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

[Mesenja]

The apostle Paul said "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." This does not mean that we are justified by faith alone. It only means that our justification excludes works of the law. Paul never said that we are justified apart from love or obedience.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Libby

Our differences are in my last sentence. I believe we are saved based solely on faith in Christ's sacrifice. You believe we need to do something more, in order to be saved.

James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God;thou doest well:the devils also believe,and tremble.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Hey,Mesenja. Apparently you haven't bothered to look at the Greek of ***us 3. "Water" DOES NOT APPEAR ANYWHERE IN THE GREEK. You have NOT engaged the text other than to attempt to twist "washing" to mean WATER and loosely tie it to other verses which really don't make your case either.

The word water also does not appear in the English translation of the text. So your objection is meaningless and besides the point. However the term washing of regeneration was always held by the early church to mean spiritual regeneration.

He who leads the person that is to be washed to the laver calls God by this name alone. And this washing is called illumination because those who learn these things are illuminated in their understanding. (Justin Martyr,First Apology 61)

And this food is called among us the Eucharist,of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true,who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins and to regeneration,and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. (Justin Martyr,First Apology 66)

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God;thou doest well:the devils also believe,and tremble.

Yes isn't that strange. Mormons are taught by their prophet that there are three Gods not one.. This means that according to the Apostle James that you don't do well and know less than even the devils.. That indeed is a sorry state to have less knowledge of the nature of the Being that should be your Father than the devils that have never or will ever please Him.. IHS jim

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Actually, it's YOU is wishing--wishing that I'd said it ONLY means ceremonial law.

I did some research on the verses in question. What do you think of THIS guy's ****ysis, which seems to agree with the PRO-LDS position?

Catholics oftentimes will just quote Phil 2:12, which says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. If salvation was guaranteed there would be no need to fear and tremble. Indeed it is an important text that in and of itself shows that the Protestant interpretation of Ephesians 2 is impossible. However, v. 13 shows how we can work it out. It is because it is God at work within us. Thus, it is God’s grace that enables us to do so. Again, God’s grace is an active force within us, not a looking away from how horrible we really are. He calls us to be blameless and innocent, children of God (v. 15)....

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/ephesians2.html

well, jeff...congrats in always finding some kind of division between RCs and Protestants. The question of justification by faith alone WAS THE RAISON D'ETRE FOR THE REFORMATION.

We already KNOW that the LDS position is close to the Mormon one. The citation IGNORES a plethora of scripture that attests to the CERTAINTY of salvation and the revelation knowledge of it.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The apostle Paul said "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." This does not mean that we are justified by faith alone. It only means that our justification excludes works of the law. Paul never said that we are justified apart from love or obedience.

WITHOUT the deeds of the law = sola Gratia, sola Fide.

We are justified by faith ALONE, but a justified faith is NEVER alone...there WILL be works as a result.

A living faith will be EVIDENCED BY GOOD WORKS.

Why can't you Mos understand this even when it's been explained to you dozens of times??

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

I have no clue as to what your objection is.

My objection is your inclusion of the word, "water" when it doesn't appear anywhere in either the Greek OR English text.

[Father_JD]

Then WHY are you arguing for "washing of regeneration" meaning WATER BAPTISM???

I agree, washing of regeneration does indeed mean SPIRITUAL REGENERATION.

[Mesenja]

You would love to "keep to the doctrine in question and eliminate all personalities"? You can't even stick to the topic in question let alone try to elimanate bringing in personalities.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yes isn't that strange. Mormons are taught by their prophet that there are three Gods not one. This means that according to the Apostle James that you don't do well and know less than even the devils. That indeed is a sorry state to have less knowledge of the nature of the Being that should be your Father than the devils that have never or will ever please Him. IHS Jim

So we are in such a sad state knowing less about the nature of God then even the devils who can't please him? Thank you Jim for telling us where the doctrine of Trinitarianism actually came from.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

WITHOUT the deeds of the law=sola Gratia, sola Fide. We are justified by faith ALONE,but a justified faith is NEVER alone. There WILL be works as a result.

A living faith will be EVIDENCED BY GOOD WORKS. Why can't you Mos understand this even when it's been explained to you dozens of times??

Everytime you see the word faith you have to add alone. If the apostle Paul wanted to teach faith alone he would have clearly stated it.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Everytime you see the word faith you have to add alone. If the apostle Paul wanted to teach faith alone he would have clearly stated it.

---Now hang on there a second, Mesenja: Romans (For we are saved by hope) was written by the same Paul who wrote Ephesians (by grace you are saved through faith).

If the Scolds are correct about Paul REALLY wanting "alone" to be added to his statement on faith, then they must think it's okay to add "alone" wherever the word "HOPE" appears, too. After all, it's the same Paul writing in both verses, so it must be okay to add to both of them.

So, we can conclude that the Bible teaches that salvation comes through HOPE ALONE, with the same amount of surety that it teaches FAITH alone.
If the Scolds object to that, and say that "alone" needs to be deleted from hope, then they have to delete "alone" from FAITH as well.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Everytime you see the word faith you have to add alone. If the apostle Paul wanted to teach faith alone he would have clearly stated it.

Well I don't know how much clearer Paul could have written it. Mesenja give us your explanation of this verse.

Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

You would love to "keep to the doctrine in question and eliminate all personalities"? You can't even stick to the topic in question let alone try to elimanate bringing in personalities.

So we are in such a sad state knowing less about the nature of God then even the devils who can't please him? Thank you Jim for telling us where the doctrine of Trinitarianism actually came from.

What does the verse say? It says " You believe that there is one God; that is correct. But even the devils know that much and they tremble"(James 2:19).. Do you hold that there is one God or do you believe the teaching of your prophet Joseph Smith who said "lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural".. According to James Joseph Smith was not doing well in that doctrine. He denied even knowing as much about the nature of God as the devils says the Apostle James. Do you follow the teaching of the Ancient Church, the teaching as it came from the Holy Spirit through the Apostles of Jesus in this matter or are you going with Joseph Smith that denied James, Moses (Deut 6:4) and even Jesus (Mark 12:29)... IHS jim

[Mesenja]

In John 10:30 this same argument is also made that Jesus and the Father are one in essence. However in the Greek that is used to translate "one" the gender of the word is neuter not masculine. The masculine would be used to indicate a oneness of person or being,and neuter implies a oneness of purpose.

heis=numerically one

hen=we are together

The basic reason for this choice [of reading] is to be found in John 10:30:“The Father and I are one[” (hen). Note that Jesus is not saying,“The Father and I are numerically one” (heis),but uses a term meaning “we are together” (Greek hen,as used again in v.38:“The Father is in me and I am in the Father”). The union of the Father and Son does not blot out the difference and individuality of each. Union rather supposes differentiation. Through love and through reciprocal communion they are one single thing,the one God-love. [Leonardo Boff,Trinity and Society,trans. Paul Burns (Maryknoll,N.Y.:Orbis,1988),5]