No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

I stand behind my argument that she has fallen for the cart-before-horse heresy of Calvinism. I stand behind my claim that salvation is the result of OBEYING GOD'S WILL---not vice versa.

But that is not what you said. Here is what you said

Your statement "belief system where obedience to God's will is NOT one of the things that God wants all people to do"

Who ever said what you claim in your statement?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---You won't even dignify it with "That is almost as cheap a shot as us accusing LDS of believing in WORKS-BASED salvation" ???

What?? You just affirmed that in another thread that "salvation is a result of obedience", jeff. How could this mean anything else other than "works" merit you salvation? I mean...c'mon, jeff. This is EXACTLY what you believe so how is that a "cheap shot"? Now on the other hand, I have patiently explained to you dozens of times the BIBLICAL "plan of salvation".

Yes, now perhaps the lightbulb has come on above you, and you have realized that what is good for you geese is pretty good when us ganders use it back at you.

All I know is you're still a master of equivocation, jeff...

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But that is not what you said. Here is what you said

Your statement "belief system where obedience to God's will is NOT one of the things that God wants all people to do"

Who ever said what you claim in your statement?

---It's Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion. I outlined the syllogism already. Read it. If Libby does not subscribe to Belief One and Belief Two, she is quite free to say so. Why don't you stop intefering long enough to give her a chance?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

-It's Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion.

So nobody made that claim--you just made it up and attributed it to the Christians on this board.

[Billyray]

Jeff, tomorrow is Sunday. Why don't you ditch the false LDS church and try a real one. Just do it.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--It is ANTI-Biblical to subscribe to a belief system where obedience to God's will is NOT one of the things that God wants all people to do.

This is part of the insidiousness of Calvinism, and I am saddened to think that you have fallen for the following beliefs:

1. The false belief that God doesn't want to save all people because it's not the individual who decides to be saved--it's ALL GOD, so if some people aren't saved, it's because God didn't want them saved.
2. The false belief that God--not the individual whose salvation/ eternal destiny is on the line--is the one who chooses who will obey Him and who won't.
3. The false belief that therefore, God doesn't want all people to obey Him.

Jesus would be appalled that people claiming to be His disciples think He subscribed to such distorted ideas about His Father.

Can we please just deal with the scriptures, Jeff, and stop detering-deflecting to your idea of Calvinism?

What do those scriptures say? Please interpret. (Not that interpretation is really even necessary, but what do YOU think they are saying?).. Seems to me they are saying exactly the opposite of what you have been claiming here, about obedience.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So nobody made that claim--you just made it up and attributed it to the Christians on this board.

---Just the ones who subscribe to Calvinism. I didn't attribute it to the LDS Christians on this board, nor did I attribute it to the Arminian Christians on this board. Stop committing the overgeneralization fallacy. You already have enough other fallacies on your record.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Just the ones who subscribe to Calvinism.

What Calvinist on this board believes ""belief system where obedience to God's will is NOT one of the things that God wants all people to do" ?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What Calvinist on this board believes ""belief system where obedience to God's will is NOT one of the things that God wants all people to do" ?

---You can take the test if you want to. Just state whether you subscribe to the two false beliefs I listed. If you don't subscribe to them, then you don't have to worry.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

1. The false belief that God doesn't want to save all people because it's not the individual who decides to be saved--it's ALL GOD, so if some people aren't saved, it's because God didn't want them saved.
2. The false belief that God--not the individual whose salvation/ eternal destiny is on the line--is the one who chooses who will obey Him and who won't.
3. The false belief that therefore, God doesn't want all people to obey Him.

All loaded questions Jeff--

1. People are free to choose to follow God or to reject God. Looking at you--you have rejected the true and living God to follow a false god, a false Jesus, and a false gospel. Nobody is forcing you against your will. You could leave your false religion today--but in reality you choose not to. Now the reason that you freely choose to follow a false god is because you have not been born again, but that does not mean that you did not choose of your own free will to reject God.

2. God clearly elects some people and does not elect others. This is a Biblical principle so your premise again is false. God does want everybody to follow him and obey the commandments but those who are not born again choose of their own free will to disobey God.

[Russianwolfe]

Billy,

You believe in the scriptures but you seem to have forgotten what Christ has said about salvation and works. I am here to remind you:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Do you think that Christ believed in a faith based salvation (saith unto me, Lord, Lord) or a works based salvation (but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven]. But works alone were not enough just a faith alone is not enought. Even those with the proper works, Christ would say he never new.

Do you believe the words of Christ or your understanding of the words of Paul. You make the call.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Do you think that Christ believed in a faith based salvation

Yes

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

or a works based salvation

No

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Do you believe the words of Christ or your understanding of the words of Paul. You make the call.

You are incorrectly ***uming that Paul and Christ differed in beliefs on salvation. If you believe that the Bible is inspired, then you can't possibly believe that God would give conflicting directives.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Yes


No


You are incorrectly ***uming that Paul and Christ differed in beliefs on salvation. If you believe that the Bible is inspired, then you can't possibly believe that God would give conflicting directives.

And yet you have no comment or reference at all to the scripture I gave you that supported my point. Funny, it seems when confronted by the scriptures, you run and hide behind ***ertions that have no basis in scripture.

Billy, don't you believe in the scriptures?

Marivn

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

And yet you have no comment or reference at all to the scripture I gave you that supported my point. Funny, it seems when confronted by the scriptures, you run and hide behind ***ertions that have no basis in scripture.

Billy, don't you believe in the scriptures?

Marivn

Marvin did you miss some of my posts?

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think you are speaking about this verse in Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

This person NEVER knew the true and living Christ. Those who follow the wrong Christ NEVER truly knew him. And what is the will of the Father?

John 6
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


What are the works of God?

John 6
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Marvin did you miss some of my posts?

Did you miss my point and the point of Christ's statement? Christ very clearly said that faith (Lord, Lord) was not enough and only those obeyed the Father would be saved.

You used the scripture to make a completely different point. And missed half of Christ's message. What Christ was saying was that it was not enough to have faith and works alone were not enought. If we listen to James the Apostle (not Banta), it requires faith and works to be saved. Or else Christ was wrong. You tell me which is correct.

Marvin

[Libby]

Marvin, as has already been said hundreds of times on this board, works and obedience are the FRUIT of salvation, NOT the cause. Your proof text does not say that works will bring you salvation. Only that a saving faith will produce good works and obedience.

I'll post Romans 3 again and maybe you will read it. I don't think Jeff did.

Romans 3

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

*************************

It just does not get anymore clear than that. Justified by FAITH apart from observing (OBEYING) the law.

[Libby]

More scripture:

Romans 5:1

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Romans 4:5

5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Romans 11:6

6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Galatians 2:16

16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be

Galatians 2:21

21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

[Libby]

The Bible is very clear on this point of salvation by grace through faith. It is a theme that is repeated over and over.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Did you miss my point and the point of Christ's statement? Christ very clearly said that faith (Lord, Lord) was not enough and only those obeyed the Father would be saved.
Marvin

It doesn't say that faith was not enough for salvation. That was YOUR revision.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

I don't think it is "clearly laid out" that Jesus CREATED Satan.

So does that mean if someone believed the Father created Satan, yest believed all the other things about Jesus as found in scripture, that God would send him to everlasting Hell and torment?

Seems kind of harsh, donchathink?

I agree Jesus (God) didn't create Satan.. He did however create a beautiful angel name Lucifer.. Jesus (God) created this being with a free will and allowed him to make a decision between goodness and error.. What does the Bible say he chose.

Isaiah 14:12-14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

This would tell us that Lucifer change himself in to being Satan. He was created pure and sinless and existed in the presence of God until sin was found in him. IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Bible is very clear on this point of salvation by grace through faith. It is a theme that is repeated over and over.

I challenge you to read first the Gospels and find out what it was that Christ preached. This then is the foundation upon which Paul built, whether the Gospels were written at the time or not. Now with that as a sure foundation, reconcile what Christ taught with what Paul teaches. Remember, they both taught the truth, so you cannot elevate one over the other they must be reconciled and not compromised.

I read the Gospels and Christ teaches a Gospel of action not of idle belief. In the verses that I quote, Christ very pointedly says:

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Christ is addressing very clearly and directly those who claim faith as their salvation when he talks of those who say 'Lord, Lord'. But Christ points out that that is not enough, obedience is required or else faith is nothing at all. And these people even claim to have faith to perform miracles:

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And they did it all in the name of the one who they claim to have faith in. But Christ denies them

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Because, while they had faith to perform miracles, they did not obey the Father. Obedience was not part of their faith.

So it is clear to me that the works do not only follow salvation if others can imitate them like they did in the scripture I quoted.

In other places, Christ refers to the two groups and offers one salvation because they helped their fellow men and denies salvation to others because they did not. The first group wondered when they helped Christ or visited Christ and were told that when they had done it to the least of Christ's brethern, they were doing it to Him, which is echoed in the Book of Mormon as 'When you are in the service of your fellow men, you are only in the service of your God.'

I know that faith without works never saved anyone and will not. So if faith without works cannot save you, of what good is teacher who tells that salvation is by faith alone, when the scriptures clearly teach otherwise.

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It doesn't say that faith was not enough for salvation. That was YOUR revision.

That is what the scripture says. You might deny it but that is how I read it. Your saying 'Nuh-huh' doesn't make for a good re****al.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

That is what the scripture says. You might deny it but that is how I read it. Your saying 'Nuh-huh' doesn't make for a good re****al.

Marvin

Matthew 7:21-23
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Show me the word faith.

Marvin, I think a key part of this p***age is in the last line where Jesus says "I never knew you". Clearly there are people who say they follow Jesus, or in the case of LDS they follow the wrong Jesus, and they may think that they are but they clearly do not have a relationship at all and NEVER had a relationship with the true Jesus of the Bible, that is why Jesus can say I NEVER KNEW YOU. Notice he does not say I knew you but you did not pull your own weight, he says I NEVER KNEW YOU.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think you are speaking about this verse in Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

And what is the will of the Father?

John 6
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

First off Marvin you did not address John 6

What is the will of the Father according to the p***age in John 6?

[Billyray]

You incorrectly ***ume that Jesus and Paul are in conflict. But lets see what Jesus has to say about faith and salvation.

NIV
John 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Luke 18:42 Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."