No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Mark Beesley]

Originally Posted by Libby

Faith alone saved the thief on the cross.

Real faith...saving faith..is all that's necessary.

That is not what Jesus taught. He taught that whosover believeth AND is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:16) You believe that, do you not?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

That is not what Jesus taught. He taught that whosover believeth AND is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:16) You believe that, do you not?

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not (and is OR is not baptized) shall be ****ed.

This is comparing "belief" on the one hand verses "belief not" on the other. Plus what do you do with all of the other p***ages that do not mention baptism. If baptism is required then the following are not true as written.

Originally Posted by Billyray

You incorrectly ***ume that Jesus and Paul are in conflict. But lets see what Jesus has to say about faith and salvation.

NIV
John 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Luke 18:42 Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

That is not what Jesus taught. He taught that whosover believeth AND is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:16) You believe that, do you not?

I know that people must believe, yes. Baptism is a matter of obedience, IMO, but not a matter of salvation. It is not necessary for salvation.

Billy already addressed this very well.

[Mark Beesley]

There is no question that the Savior said, as recorded in Mark, that those who believe AND are baptized will be saved. There are undoubtedly numerous p***ages in the scriptures where the Lord provides discrete elements necessary for salvation. As our Evangelical friends are constantly reminding us, we must read the scriptures as a whole in order to get the whole picture. The whole picture is that there are a lot of things that we have to do for salvation. We must do the will of the Father. We must have faith in Christ. We must keep the commandments. We must forgive one another. We must be peacemakers. We must be meek. And the list goes on.

We cannot in good conscience simply count up the number of times that Christ articulated one of the requirements for salvation, and conclude that it is the only thing required. Indeed, as I will show below, there is a very good reason why a single element, faith in Christ, is emphasized above other requirements. But in the meantime, remember that John himself said,

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.

John 21:25

In other words, it is foolhardy to think that each of the writers of the Gospel, in reciting the words of the Savior, would try to make a comprehensive list of the requirements for salvation every time they mention one of the requirements.

The requirement of baptism is not simply a matter of obedience. No where does the Holy Bible diminish the importance of baptism from a requirement for salvation to merely an optional expression of obedience. Although, even if one wants to try and make the argument that "[b]aptism is a matter of obedience," do they seriously want to argue that one can be saved without being obedient? What did Christ say?

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:21

According to the Savior of the World, salvation comes only to those who are obedient. That places baptism squarely in the the column of requirements for salvation; to argue otherwise is to make Christ out to be a liar.

Christ Himself set the example, showing with undeniable force the necessity of baptism, when He, the Savior of the World, humbled Himself and submitted to baptism at the hand of John the Baptist:

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 3

Christ did not do this to establish a broad gate wherein one may enter for salvation. He did it to show how narrow the way is by doing it Himself. HE SHOWED US THE WAY!

We are indebted to Nephi for expounding on why Christ submitted to baptism.

6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.

2 Nephi 31

Obedience is an inescapable theme in every single volume of scripture, beginning with Adam and Eve in the Garden and ending with the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith. The disobedient can not be saved.

Christ's final charge to the Apostles, as he ascended into heaven was,

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen

Matthew 28

For Christ, the most important things He wanted His Apostles to do in His absence was to teach obedience and to baptize. Why would anyone want to take away from the Word of God by saying that baptism is not required for salvation? Such a creed is rightly called an abomination and corruption by our Savior.

After the ascension, as the Apostles went about preaching Christ, baptism was taught as a necessary companion to faith.

37 Now when they heard this, they were *****ed in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2

Peter did not say, Just have faith. He didn't say, Ya gotta believe. NO! He said, Repent and be baptized. How difficult is that to understand?

Now, I should say a word about the emphasis that John seems to place on Christ's words to the effect that those who believe will be saved. John was very pointed about what he thought about people who claimed they had faith but were not obedient:

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2

For John, it was simple. If you have faith, you will be obedient. You will be baptized. It was unnecessary for John, in reciting the words of Christ, to go beyond declaring the necessity of faith because true faith would lead to obedience to the other commandments, like baptism. For John, baptism was not optional. It was a self-evident requirement for salvation because it would naturally follow true faith.

One of the plain and precious things that I have no doubt the Savior taught in Galilee, but which has been lost in the Holy Bible, has been restored in the Book of Mormon. One of the very first thing the Savior taught the Nephites and Lamanites who were gathered at Zarahemla when He visited them was the necessity of baptism.

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be ****ed.

3 Nephi 11

The Book of Mormon contains the words of Christ. It testifies of Him, and is a testimony of the great love the Father has for His children, in that He preserved to come forth in the last days to stand as a witness for truth and to persuade men to come unto Christ and baptized. By the same token it will stand as a witness against the ungodly and those who despise His power to their everlasting shame.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Libby

You seem to have this terrible need to make God in the image of what you consider to be "fair".

----YOU seem to have this terrible need to make your new-found Calvinistic belief that God is UNfair, into a GOOD thing. It's like Bizzarro World, where if God randomly hands out eternity in heaven to a FEW, and hands out eternity in hell to MANY--and does so in a manner that is totally arbitrary and capricious, with no discernable morality involved--it is the "REAL" concept of fairness. It's the rest of the world that has the wrong definition of fairness, and the RE-definition of "fair" invented by this little group of extremist Evangelicals, is REALLY the correct one. Isn't that kind of thinking a symptom of cult mentality? (Our redefinition is the correct one, and the rest of the world is wrong and are against us becausae they aren't among the Chosen Ones who were chosen to understand) Your pals usually use terms that refer to drinking Kool-Aid and expecting a ride to heaven on a comet when THEY are attacking the kind of mentality that you are exhibiting right now.

It really gets in the way of your "seeing" God's truth, IMHO.

---See above, under "cult mentality." My using the widely-accepted dictionary definition of "fair" gets in the way of seeing the correctness of your re-definition of it? okay.....

God is completely and perfectly just in all of His ways, whether we see it or understand it or not. That's who He is...one of His main attributes (justice), which is how we ended up in so much trouble, to begin with.

---You don't seem to comprehend the implications of the standard Calvinist mantra you are repeating--it doesn't even make sense, but first consider this:

If God is your idea of total, uncompromising, rock-hard justice, then that makes Him a being with ZERO % comp***ion, mercy, and empathy. Are you sure that's the kind of God who deserves to be worshiped? So a 5-year-old kid takes a penny from the "take one, leave one" dish in the checkout aisle, so your God sends her to an eternity in hell because He's all about justice. Not too impressive. Another example of the insidiousness with which Calvinistic soteriology has painted God to be a punitive tyrant.

Okay, now let's talk about how the mantra you have learned makes no sense:

The god of Calvinism sends that ONE penny-taking kid to hell, but he doesn't send ALL of them to hell--he picks and chooses among the 5-year-old penny-takers, and he decides to send a FEW of them to heaven. "Oh, that proves that He IS worthy of our worship, because He COULD have sent them ALL to hell but He DIDN'T!" And you say that the god of Calvinism is 100% JUST, right? WHERE is the justice in only sending SOME of those kids to hell? That's not justice. Just ask the kids who are in hell, who are trying to figure out what made the other penny-taking kids less deserving of hell than themselves. "Oh, those kids didn't deserve hell any less--Calvinistic God just decided, in his "sovereignty," to save THEM but not YOU."

And the kids in hell are wondering "How does that make any sense to then claim that He is JUST?"

And you reply "Well, you should just be grateful that He didn't send ALL the penny-taking kids to hell !! "

And the kids in hell are thinking "Yeah, right, we are SOOOO grateful."


The god of Calvinism is NOT just because he doesn't honor one of the hallmarks of the word justice: Punishing ALL people who are in similar circumstances SIMILARLY.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

. There are undoubtedly numerous p***ages in the scriptures where the Lord provides discrete elements necessary for salvation. As our Evangelical friends are constantly reminding us, we must read the scriptures as a whole in order to get the whole picture. The whole picture is that there are a lot of things that we have to do for salvation.

You are correct and here is the requirement for salvation.

Originally Posted by Billyray

NIV
John 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Luke 18:42 Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."

Either these verses are true as they stand or they are false as they stand. These are statements from Jesus. If baptism is required for salvation--and Jesus would clearly know--then these statement by Jesus are false. Mark nobody is arguing that we should keep the commandments, because we should but these are not requirements FOR salvation.

[James Banta]

[nrajeff;60519]---I thought it said "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

I saw TWO things in there--not just calling on Jesus' name.

How many did you count?

---YOU won't allow Jesus to use baptism as part of the process by which sins are remitted.

Yes I count two way that could be seen a way to wash your sins away.. One is by water in baptism and one is having God do it because we call on His name.. Which makes more sense? If we can become clean before him in the waters of baptism than Christ is dead in vain. BUT if this is a task that only He can do wouldn't he use the blood of the sacrifice of His Lamb? That is the message that comes through is the whole Bible. GOD spilled blood in the garden to make cloths for Adam that covered his sin. The Patriarchs offered blood sacrifice in their worship. Aaron offered blood as a sacrifice for sin on the alter of the Tabernacle. Jesus offered the true sacrifice. The blood He shed on the cross cleanses from all sin.. Water just is not the agent needed to cover sin, it must be blood.. That is why baptism, though a beautiful way to identify with Jesus in His death and resurrection, is NOT the means where by sin can be forgiven.. So the only reasonable interpretation of the verse is God washes away our sin because we call on Him for the blood of Jesus to make us clean..

---I guess you missed the lessons on baptism where they teach that if it weren't for Jesus' atonement, all the baptizing in the world would not remit even one sin.

I guess I missed the one that holds Baptism as more than a symbol of the cleansing that God gives us though the blood of Jesus.. If a man never undergoes physical baptism but believers in God trusting Him to keep all His promises and other around him see the change in him and the newness of life, the new man he has become, is he not the same new creature in Jesus with or without the symbol of baptism? YES, he is because whether or not he was baptized by men, he was baptized by the Holy Spirit..

---How about YOU try reading it now, with the new understanding I just taught you.

I always could see your meaning in the verse.. I tell you that it is mistaken. It must be that we are cleased by God and not water. The sacricice of jeus is too important too dear to make it replaceable by mere water. You can symbolize a connection with the death and resurection of Jesus in baptism but it will NEVER cleanses a person one even the smallest most insignificant of sins.. No can you see that "Calling on the name of the Lord" is the way real way that cleansing comes or are you going to insist that he sacrifice of Jesus wasn't really important and that water in the real agent to cleanses a person of sin? Last time I looked the Blood of Jesus is NOT in the font it's only water..

----It is THANKS to Jesus' atonement that baptism can be an efficacious ordinance. Same as with the Eucharist's potential to help sanctify a person.

And it is again just a symbol to help us remember the sacrifice of our Lord. We don't do it for any other reason.. You have to know what He said. "DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME".. He never told us to do that to be sanctified.. Again we can ONLY become holy though Jesus. A symbol we use to remember Him won't do it.. You have turned to idols of water, and bread to replace the True and living God. That is an element of the other gospel Paul warned the Church to avoid.. It's time to put those idols away and turn to the real object of the Christian faith.. JESUS and only JESUS.. Then when your mind is filled with Him then you can understand the element of memorial and again use baptism and the Lord's Supper as they are meant by God to be used.. IHS jim

[Mark Beesley]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Either these verses are true as they stand or they are false as they stand.

So, you reject the approach to scriptural interpretation known as hermeneutics? The many divergent beliefs of Evangelicals make my head spin.

These are statements from Jesus. If baptism is required for salvation--and Jesus would clearly know--then these statement by Jesus are false.

No, not false, simply incomplete. Read the WHOLE Bible to get the WHOLE story. Remember, as far as John was concerned, faith without obedience was no faith at all. (Probably got that from spending so much time with the Master.)

Mark nobody is arguing that we should [not] [sic] keep the commandments, because we should but these are not requirements FOR salvation.

Show me a scripture which says that obedience is optional.

[theway]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I guess I missed the one that holds Baptism as more than a symbol of the cleansing that God gives us though the blood of Jesus.. If a man never undergoes physical baptism but believers in God trusting Him to keep all His promises and other around him see the change in him and the newness of life, the new man he has become, is he not the same new creature in Jesus with or without the symbol of baptism? YES, he is because whether or not he was baptized by men, he was baptized by the Holy Spirit..

"No one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Tertullian: Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

Originally Posted by James Banta

And it is again just a symbol to help us remember the sacrifice of our Lord. We don't do it for any other reason.. You have to know what He said. "DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME".. He never told us to do that to be sanctified.. Again we can ONLY become holy though Jesus. A symbol we use to remember Him won't do it.. You have turned to idols of water, and bread to replace the True and living God. That is an element of the other gospel Paul warned the Church to avoid.. It's time to put those idols away and turn to the real object of the Christian faith.. JESUS and only JESUS.. Then when your mind is filled with Him then you can understand the element of memorial and again use baptism and the Lord's Supper as they are meant by God to be used.. IHS jim

"That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. . . . Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works" (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25–26 [A.D. 240]).

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by theway

"No one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Tertullian: Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

"That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. . . . Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works" (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25–26 [A.D. 240]).

---"B-b-but my handlers at DownWithMormons Ministries told me those ideas were invented by Joe Smith in the 1830s! And that NO Christian has believed or would believe such doctrines! And that Evangelicalism's doctrines are error-free, and straight from the Bible alone!

What is going on here !??"

[theway]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---"B-b-but my handlers at DownWithMormons Ministries told me those ideas were invented by Joe Smith in the 1830s! And that NO Christian has believed or would believe such doctrines! And that Evangelicalism's doctrines are error-free, and straight from the Bible alone!

What is going on here !??"

What the critics here would have you believe is that the early Christians understood Christ teachings, but very quickly fell into some type of heresy and started believing all types of extra Biblical theologies (such as water baptism being a requirement), to the point where the original doctrine was lost and all preacher’s were in error on the doctrine.
But then along comes someone inspired by God, many hundreds of years latter, to restore the original meaning of the scripture.
So in essence, DownWithMormons want you to believe:

The original gospel as taught by Christ was pure.
Christianity quickly fell into heresy and apostasy.
After hundreds of years, in the later days, a man is called to restore the original gospel message.
This restored message is the true gospel of Christ…….nah…..
…..sorry…… there is no way anybody would believe such a silly made-up story.

[James Banta]

[the way;60574]"No one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Tertullian: Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

Unless there is a natural birth there can be no natural life.. The Bible tells us of only two births in John 3, one being a natural birth one being a spiritual birth.. Unless there are three births and you want to point to them, natural birth isn't one of the births mentioned in John 3 but then you have a real problem wth verse 6..

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

"That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. . . . Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works" (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25–26 [A.D. 240]).

Instead of changing the meaning of the p***age I'll just go by what is in the Bible in:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Since verse 6 speaks of only two births the meaning of being born of the water must be either if the first birth, flesh or of the second birth, Spirit. Which then is baptism of the flesh or of the Spirit? I personally don't see baptism in this p***age. I see a natural birth of water and a new birth of the spirit.. The lord's supper I see as just what Jesus said it was to be a memorial to REMEMBER HIM.. I have already quoted the suport p***age to make that point and what you did was to say that the Bible is wrong and statement of the Testimonies Concerning the Jews .. What I have to say about that is WOW you really hate the word of God!!! IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by James Banta

....you really hate the word of God!!! jim

---Jim, you won't mind if someone says that to you, right? It's not inappropriate, or insulting, or out of line, or presumptuous. Correct?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Jim, you won't mind if someone says that to you, right? It's not inappropriate, or insulting, or out of line, or presumptuous. Correct?

I didn't go outside the word of God to show that it was in error either.. I would only say such a thing to someone who isn't willing to submit to it and go about looking in other documents to support your own pet interpretations.. IHS jim

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Jim, you won't mind if someone says that to you, right? It's not inappropriate, or insulting, or out of line, or presumptuous. Correct?

Your problem is Jim has the Word of God, you sir have nothing but the vain imaginations of you hell bound mind.

Andy

[Compinche]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

Your problem is Jim has the Word of God, you sir have nothing but the vain imaginations of you hell bound mind.

Andy

Originally Posted by Jill"

One more thing, do not post in a thread to mock someone else--this is called "baiting," which is against the rules. You will be warned once and then your account will be suspended--possibly indefinitely. If you have to resort to making fun of people and their ideas, you have nothing valuable to contribute here.

.................

[akaSeerone]

How do you figure that from what I said.

You should have said that to Jeff, not me.

Andy

[theway]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Unless there is a natural birth there can be no natural life.. The Bible tells us of only two births in John 3, one being a natural birth one being a spiritual birth.. Unless there are three births and you want to point to them, natural birth isn't one of the births mentioned in John 3 but then you have a real problem wth verse 6..

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Tertullian, or any of the other Christian fathers. Almost to a man stated that the meaning of John 3:5 is that; to be born of the water means water baptism, and that it is essential for salvation.
You seem perfectly willing to throw them under the bus, just to hang onto your misinterpretation

Originally Posted by James Banta

Instead of changing the meaning of the p***age I'll just go by what is in the Bible in:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Since verse 6 speaks of only two births the meaning of being born of the water must be either if the first birth, flesh or of the second birth, Spirit. Which then is baptism of the flesh or of the Spirit? I personally don't see baptism in this p***age. I see a natural birth of water and a new birth of the spirit.. The lord's supper I see as just what Jesus said it was to be a memorial to REMEMBER HIM.. I have already quoted the suport p***age to make that point and what you did was to say that the Bible is wrong and statement of the Testimonies Concerning the Jews .. What I have to say about that is WOW you really hate the word of God!!! IHS jim

You should know by now I get everything i post from Orthodox Christian sites.
Do they hate the Bible as well?

[Father_JD]

Yes, jeff...salvation doesn't come through either "obedience" or "works" or any kind of "good deed" You can do.

But it is NOT "biblical"...NOT when BOTH Jesus and Paul clearly taught that it was BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH and NOT OF YOURSELVES...NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE BOAST.

And then again, Paul in Romans 9 clearly states it's not the one who "wills" or "runs" after it, but GOD WHO SHOWS MERCY

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

No, not false, simply incomplete. Read the WHOLE Bible to get the WHOLE story. Remember, as far as John was concerned, faith without obedience was no faith at all. (Probably got that from spending so much time with the Master.)

Mark, the Bible is clear that salvation is by faith and not by works. A verse can't say that salvation is by faith and not of works if works are required. I don't know how much more clear a verse can be. Are we suppose to ignore the commandments? No Should we be baptized? Yes. But these are not requirements for salvation.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

----YOU seem to have this terrible need to make your new-found Calvinistic belief that God is UNfair, into a GOOD thing. It's like Bizzarro World, where if God randomly hands out eternity in heaven to a FEW, and hands out eternity in hell to MANY--and does so in a manner that is totally arbitrary and capricious, with no discernable morality involved--it is the "REAL" concept of fairness. It's the rest of the world that has the wrong definition of fairness, and the RE-definition of "fair" invented by this little group of extremist Evangelicals, is REALLY the correct one. Isn't that kind of thinking a symptom of cult mentality? (Our redefinition is the correct one, and the rest of the world is wrong and are against us becausae they aren't among the Chosen Ones who were chosen to understand) Your pals usually use terms that refer to drinking Kool-Aid and expecting a ride to heaven on a comet when THEY are attacking the kind of mentality that you are exhibiting right now.

You are attacking a strawman, because those are not my beliefs. Never were, never will be. Those are your own perceptions about Calvinism.

I'm not discussing Calvinism here. It's not the place and I am just not going to get into a long convoluted argument about it. If you really want to understand, take your questions to the experts over on CARM.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Libby

You are attacking a strawman, because those are not my beliefs. Never were, never will be.

---If you, like me, have a problem with this fallacious system that is Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion, then what are you doing immersing yourself in it?

Those are your own perceptions about Calvinism.

----Well, they are "perceptions" I got from your new friends--it's what they have been telling me, for years, is God's system of saving a few and ****ing many.

I'm not discussing Calvinism here.

---But if the LDS doctrine on how God decides who's been naughty and who's been nice is wrong, and if Calvinism is the REAL truth about how it works, then why aren't you willing to "share the truth of it in love" ?

It's not the place and I am just not going to get into a long convoluted argument about it.

---Unwillingness to share the joyous truth? How then can I be saved?

If you really want to understand, take your questions to the experts over on CARM

---LOL--that's where I GOT the scoop on Calvinism in the FIRST place! If my impresion of Calvinism is messed up and don't really reflect what Calvinism teaches, then it's your buddies to messed me up! THEY are the ones who told me stuff like "You should be GRATEFUL that God doesn't send the ALL to hell!" and "You should be GRATEFUL that GOD ISN'T fair!" and "The ****ed didn't do anything different from us elect saved people--it's all God, not anything WE do" and "The only reason why it's this way--that YOU need to know--is 'Because God SAID SO' ! "

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---If you, like me, have a problem with this fallacious system that is Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion, then what are you doing immersing yourself in it?

I believe in the Bible, Jeff. I hold to Reformed theology insofar as it is in sync with the Bible. Period.

----Well, they are "perceptions" I got from your new friends--it's what they have been telling me, for years, is God's system of saving a few and ****ing many.

Yes, and it's true, insofar as it is in sync with the Bible.

---But if the LDS doctrine on how God decides who's been naughty and who's been nice is wrong, and if Calvinism is the REAL truth about how it works, then why aren't you willing to "share the truth of it in love" ?

I'm more than willing to "share the truth in love" with people who are really interested. I think, at this point, you are only interested in mocking.

---Unwillingness to share the joyous truth? How then can I be saved?

Case in point.

---LOL--that's where I GOT the scoop on Calvinism in the FIRST place! If my impresion of Calvinism is messed up and don't really reflect what Calvinism teaches, then it's your buddies to messed me up! THEY are the ones who told me stuff like "You should be GRATEFUL that God doesn't send the ALL to hell!" and "You should be GRATEFUL that GOD ISN'T fair!" and "The ****ed didn't do anything different from us elect saved people--it's all God, not anything WE do" and "The only reason why it's this way--that YOU need to know--is 'Because God SAID SO' ! "

I don't want to discourage you or anything, but it appears as though you failed the course. Please try again.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

-----But if the LDS doctrine on how God decides who's been naughty and who's been nice is wrong, and if Calvinism is the REAL truth about how it works, then why aren't you willing to "share the truth of it in love" ?
"

We have shared this with you Jeff, over and over and over again, but it does not seem to sink in. Give us a specific concern and we can take these one by one for you and maybe this time it might sink in.

[Mark Beesley]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Mark, the Bible is clear that salvation is by faith and not by works. A verse can't say that salvation is by faith and not of works if works are required. I don't know how much more clear a verse can be. Are we suppose to ignore the commandments? No Should we be baptized? Yes. But these are not requirements for salvation.

There is no verse that says we are saved by faith, not works. I'm waiting for a reference to a verse that says obedience is optional.