No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Did the thief on the cross go to Paradise with Jesus? This is a simple question.

You have repeated the same question to me numerous times. Yet you have never provided a definition of Paradise. What is your definition of Paradise? This is also a simple question.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure how you think that this explains that the translation of the ancient m****cript was incorrect. Especially given the fact that the Joseph Smith Translation is consistent with the official Latter-day Saint King James Version Bible which states Paradise. Do you know something that the the translators of the Bible did not know OR that Joseph Smith didn't know? Is this based on your personal revelation?

What I believe Jeff is arguing is that the proper usage of the term is more consistent with the idea of Paradise being "the place where God's people are happy and at rest,as they wait for the final judgment."

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But yet it is still the same word not a different word. That is the point. If the word is red then the word is red not blue even if you are color blind.

In this particular case Jeff is trying to get you to see this. Just restating your position that the word paradise is used in this verse is quite meaningless without defining how the word is used here.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

I've already said that it was besides the point whether the verse in question is translated correctly.

I think that this is an very important point. LDS and Christians differ in defining just about every term so this is not an issue with how you or I would define things. Defining a word differently is one thing but changing a word completely is something entirely different. This is the issue that I have tried to bring to light. The LDS KJV translates the word "Paradise" AND Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible translates the word "Paradise", on what basis or on what authority do you have to simply change the Bible in this case?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

. . .Paradise being "the place where God's people are happy and at rest,as they wait for the final judgment."

I would agree with this definition. As noted above these are God's people who are at rest. Before the resurrection this is located away from the presence of God because their sins have not of paid for yet by Christ. After the resurrection their sins would be paid for and then they could enter the presence of God. Today when a believer dies his spirit goes immediately into the presence of God. For the unbeliever this is not the case.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

“Chapter 41:The Postmortal Spirit World,” Gospel Principles,(2009),240–44
Spirit Prison

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise."

But note from the Gospel Principles quote ("If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise"),that certain things are required (according to LDS theology) prior to entrance into Paradise which would of not likely been done that day. Second the quote from Mesenja out of the LDS Bible dictionary stated ". . . the fact that the thief was not ready for paradise."

The thief had to have accepted the ordinances of the gospel and lived by it's principles. That is the reason that Jesus as a spirit organized the preaching of the gospel to those who are dead so that they may be judged by the standards set by God for the living but live according to God in the spirit.

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,but live according to God in the spirit.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The thief had to have accepted the ordinances of the gospel and lived by it's principles.

First off this requires that you change the word "Paradise" to "Spirit Prison" to be consistent with your ideas. Second you do realize that this is a Mormon concept that states that the thief has to have ordinances done in order for Jesus to be allowed to let this guy into heaven.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I would agree with this definition. As noted above these are God's people who are at rest. Before the resurrection this is located away from the presence of God because their sins have not of paid for yet by Christ. After the resurrection their sins would be paid for and then they could enter the presence of God. Today when a believer dies his spirit goes immediately into the presence of God. For the unbeliever this is not the case.

The atonement is timeless. The atonement is retroactive. The atonement is proactive.

Please present your argument that "before the resurrection this [paradise] is located away from the presence of God because their [the righteous i.e. Gods people] sins have not of yet [been] paid for by Christ."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Billyray stated
I would agree with this definition. As noted above these are God's people who are at rest. Before the resurrection this is located away from the presence of God because their sins have not of paid for yet by Christ. After the resurrection their sins would be paid for and then they could enter the presence of God. Today when a believer dies his spirit goes immediately into the presence of God. For the unbeliever this is not the case.

The atonement is timeless. The atonement is retroactive. The atonement is proactive

You misquoted me in the post above and attributed the last sentence to me that I clearly did not write. Perhaps you are quoting someone that I was quoting? Could you clarify that for me so at least I can read the original quote and in what reference it was quoted?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Please present your argument that "before the resurrection this [paradise] is located away from the presence of God because their [the righteous i.e. Gods people] sins have not of yet [been] paid for by Christ."

Did you miss post #697 just a few posts back that spoke a little about this? Anyway I will repost it for you again below which is a direct quote from my post earlier this year.

Originally Posted by Billyray

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-go-to-hell.html
Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll.
Question: "Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?"

Answer: There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, “He descended into hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the realm of the dead.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is “hades,” which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. So, no, Jesus did not go to hell because hell is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The lost side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.

Some of the confusion has arisen from such p***ages as Psalm 16:10-11 as translated in the King James Version, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life.” “Hell” is not a correct translation of this verse. A correct reading would be “the grave” or “sheol.” Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus’ body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the “paradise” side of sheol/hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from paradise and took them with Him to heaven. Unfortunately, in many translations of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for “sheol,” “hades,” and “hell.”
end of cut and paste.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The thief had to have accepted the ordinances of the gospel and lived by it's principles. That is the reason that Jesus as a spirit organized the preaching of the gospel to those who are dead so that they may be judged by the standards set by God for the living but live according to God in the spirit.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism--Spirit World
"Bruce R. McConkie explained, "Until the death of Christ these two spirit abodes [paradise and hell] were separated by a great gulf, with the intermingling of their respective inhabitants strictly forbidden (Luke 16:19-31). After our Lord bridged the gulf between the two (1 Pet. 3:18-21; Moses 7:37-39), the affairs of his kingdom in the spirit world were so arranged that righteous spirits began teaching the gospel to wicked ones" (MD, p. 762)."

According to LDS theology what was the criteria for entrance into Paradise or Spirit Prison PRIOR to the death and resurrection of Christ?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

First off this requires that you change the word "Paradise" to "Spirit Prison" to be consistent with your ideas. Second you do realize that this is a Mormon concept that states that the thief has to have ordinances done in order for Jesus to be allowed to let this guy into heaven.

First as I have stated previously the accuracy of the translation is not the issue. What is relevant for me is how this word is used. The question therefore is a matter of context and usage. You are isolating this verse in order to be able to read into it your theology. Second it is not only a Mormon concept that states that the ordinances of the gospel are vital for our salvation. The Catholics support this view as well.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

First as I have stated previously the accuracy of the translation is not the issue.

It is not an issue to you but it is certainly an issue to me. The word clearly is translated to "Paradise" NOT "Spirit Prison or "outer darkness".

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Spirit_World
"They are then ***igned to a place of paradise or a place of hell and "outer darkness," depending on the manner of their mortal life (Alma 40:12-14)."

President Joseph F. Smith discussed this subject further: The spirits of all men, as soon as they depart from this mortal body, whether they are good or evil,…are taken home to that God who gave them life, where there is a separation, a partial judgment, and the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they expand in wisdom, where they have respite from all their troubles, and where care and sorrow do not annoy. The wicked, on the contrary, have no part nor portion in the Spirit of the Lord, and they are cast into outer darkness, being led captive, because of their own iniquity, by the evil one. And in this space between death and the resurrection of the body, the two cl***es of souls remain, in happiness or in misery, until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth and be reunited both spirit and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works. This is the final judgment [p. 448].

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Encyclopedia of Mormonism--Spirit World

"Bruce R. McConkie explained,"Until the death of Christ these two spirit abodes [paradise and hell] were separated by a great gulf,with the intermingling of their respective inhabitants strictly forbidden (Luke 16:19-31). After our Lord bridged the gulf between the two (1 Peter 3:18-21;Moses 7:37-39),the affairs of his kingdom in the spirit world were so arranged that righteous spirits began teaching the gospel to wicked ones" (Mprmon Doctrine,p. 762)."

According to Latter-day Saint theology what was the criteria for entrance into Paradise or Spirit Prison PRIOR to the death and resurrection of Christ?

As you have access to Gospel Principles and The Encyclopedia of Mormonism then what is the point of asking me this question? Instead of employing these tiresome question and answer tactics just state your argument and have done with it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The question therefore is a matter of context and usage.

Here is the difference

1. Definition difference (Lets use the word God as an example)

LDS--a man who worked his way up the ladder and became a god and has many wives in heaven and procreates spirit babies. . .

Christian--one God manifest in three persons that has existed from everlasting to everlasting


2. Different word--you are completely changing the word to a new word not simply changing the definition like noted above.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

As you have access to Gospel Principles and The Encyclopedia of Mormonism then what is the point of asking me this question? Instead of employing these tiresome question and answer tactics just state your argument and have done with it.

Can you give us a short run down on the requirements so not only I will know but others will know as well. Thanks

Requirements for Paradise--pre Christ.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You misquoted me in the post above and attributed the last sentence to me that I clearly did not write. Perhaps you are quoting someone that I was quoting? Could you clarify that for me so at least I can read the original quote and in what reference it was quoted?

All I did was correct your grammar to make it easier for people to understand. I was quoting you Billy. Yes I was at fault and attributed a quote given by Robert Millet to you by mistakenly inserting it into the quote I gave to you. However this unintentional error on my part does not take away from the fact that you said " their sins have not of paid for yet by Christ" If I misrepresented your position then who are you referring to here?

Originally Posted by Billyray

I would agree with this definition. As noted above these are God's people who are at rest. Before the resurrection this is located away from the presence of God because their sins have not of paid for yet by Christ. After the resurrection their sins would be paid for and then they could enter the presence of God. Today when a believer dies his spirit goes immediately into the presence of God. For the unbeliever this is not the case.

Jesus is called the lamb slain from the foundation of the world,whatever that means. The Atonement takes effect on earth from what day? Does it take effect in a.d. 30. No,it takes effect in 4000 b.c. Adam and Eve and their children repented in the name of the Son,who would come in 4000 years. In fact,look at the language in the Book of Mormon,if you will. Alma,chapter 39,I think it is. The message of Alma in chapter 39 is to his son Corianton. This is the chapter where Alma has called his son to repentance,and now he's going to teach him some pretty interesting doctrine.

Verses 17-19: "And now I will ease your mind somewhat on this subject. Behold,you marvel why these things [that is, the redemption of Christ] should be known so long beforehand. Behold,I say unto you,is not a soul at this time as precious unto God as a soul will be at the time of his coming?

"Is it not as necessary that the plan of redemption should be made known unto this people as well as unto their children?

"Is it not as easy at this time for the Lord to send his angel to declare these glad tidings unto us as unto our children, or as after the time of his coming?"

Do you see the nature of the timelessness of it? The issue wasn't,essentially,when Jesus would come. The issue is that he would come and the people in the Book of Mormon functioned,to use the language of the Book of Mormon,as though he had already come. And so it's timeless. It is retroactive. It is proactive. So,it overcomes death. It is timeless.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

However this unintentional error on my part does not take away from the fact that you said " their sins have not of paid for yet by Christ" If I then who are you referring to here?

I am not sure of your exact question, so I am guessing and will address what I think is your question. Prior to Christ's' live and death on the cross the penalty for sin was not paid. Just like a fine for any legal violation is not paid until it is paid. Hope that answers your question.

[nrajeff]

The requirements for eternal life have not changed, regardless whether a person lived B.C. or A.D. : Have faith and OBEY God's will to the best of your ability in the circumstances you're in. That's why Abraham and Mother Teresa can both get eternal life. The requirement was essentially the same for both.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure of your exact question,so I am guessing and will address what I think is your question. Prior to Christ's' life and death on the cross the penalty for sin was not paid. Just like a fine for any legal violation is not paid until it is paid. Hope that answers your question.

Is the atonement retroactive? Now to respond to your post. First off the model of justification is based on a familial not legal framework. Second due to the eternal nature of the atonement it's effects are retroactive otherwise it could not be said that God is "the God of Abraham,the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob."

Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him,whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Exodus 3:15 Moreover God said to Moses,"Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:'The Lord God of your fathers,the God of Abraham,the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob,has sent me to you. This is My name forever,and this is My memorial to all generations.'

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is the difference

1. Definition difference (Lets use the word God as an example)

LDS--a man who worked his way up the ladder and became a god and has many wives in heaven and procreates spirit babies. . .

Christian--one God manifest in three persons that has existed from everlasting to everlasting


2. Different word--you are completely changing the word to a new word not simply changing the definition like noted above.

It isn't about your faulty understanding of how we define God. Stick to the topic please.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Is the atonement retroactive? Now to respond to your post. First off the model of justification is based on a familial not legal framework. Second due to the eternal nature of the atonement it's effects are retroactive otherwise it could not be said that God is "the God of Abraham,the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob."

I am still not sure what you are really asking. Maybe you could rephrase it for me.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The subject is paradise. . .It isn't about your faulty understanding of how we define God. Stick to the topic please.

You are right it is about the thief going to Paradise. You do believe that the thief went to Paradise, don't you?

[Father_JD]

Why do you quote (out of context of course!) the ECF...I mean, the GREAT APOSTASY had taken place already according to Mormons.

Ah, but leave it to the Mo to want it both ways...ALWAYS.

Don't forget now, Augustine lived between 354 AD and 430...plenty of time for baptismal regeneration to creep into that ***** OF BABYLON, the CATHOLIC CHURCH as you Mos are wont to call it!!

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Why do you quote (out of context of course!) the ECF...I mean,the GREAT APOSTASY had taken place already according to Mormons. Ah,but leave it to the Mormon to want it both ways...ALWAYS. Don't forget now,Augustine lived between 354 AD and 430...plenty of time for baptismal regeneration to creep into that ***** OF BABYLON,the CATHOLIC CHURCH as you Mormonss are wont to call it!

Quit with all your impotent posturing and show me where I took any of my previous quotes out of context.