No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yes I am pompous and self righteous because I see the Bible telling me that I am a complete and total sinner and have no place with God other than through Jesus. How can I have such a self righteous at***ude as to believe that I can only be seen as righteous through the works of Jesus? Are you mad? I am saying that I am saved by Him completely and totally not by works I have done. Whereas Mormonism teaches that we are save by God's grace AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. That is self righteousness. You can do things that make yourself acceptable to God. And you call me pompous and self righteous. That is complete and utter GALL.

IHS Jim

Why do you take offense when I point out what you claim claim to be?

[Father_JD]

What I got was the following broad and overreaching answer. I wasn't asking you how James was making the argument for works and faith as it relates to our justification for the entire chapter.

"Overreaching"? You mean like Mormon works-earn-salvation "prooftexts" (or so you think!) at the expense of Paul's NOT BY WORKS p***ages?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD

No,James is saying that Abraham was forensically justified by faith and that this faith was vindicated by his works.

What I asked you was how James used the word justify in a specific instance that being the following verse.


Quote:
James 2:21

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

Did he mean to say here that Abraham was forensically justified by faith before God or only vindicated by his works before men? A yes or no answer being all that is required here...Vindicated before whom Father JD? There is no scriptural warrant for you to say that we are ever justified before men. When Abraham took Isaac up the mountain to be sacrificed he was justified before God and not before men. Abraham's servants who went with him were told to wait at the bottom of the mountain.

I already answered that question, M.

Let's get down and dirty cause I'm gonna **** your fractured Mormon hermeneutic right out of the water. We're going to go through the relevant p***ages of James so hold on to your white bonnet:





Jam 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


Jam 1:19 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:


Jam 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.


Jam 1:21 ¶ Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.


Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

It's at this juncture that James begins his argument for the DIFFERENCE between a "said" faith and a salvific faith that is REAL:

Mere "hearers" of the Word are DECEIVING themselves. Can you agree with that?


Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a gl***:


Jam 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.


Catch the ****ogy, M? That one "forgets" what manner of man he was", but what James means is that man "forgot" what manner he is supposed to be.


Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

It's the one who doesn't just "hear" the word, but DOES it is BLESSED. Are you in agreement with this?


Jam 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.

Key word: SEEM. James is laying out his argument as to what cons***utes a salvific faith (one demonstrated by works), and a merely professed faith by one who SEEMS to be "relgious". But as James says, that one has deceived himself and his "religion is vain". (Later to be labeled as "dead" faith by James)


Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James is using a synecdoche here. Go LOOK up the term if you don't know it, M. Pure relgion goes way beyond just visiting orphans and widows or not being tainted by the world.

James 2:1-13 is about not respecting rich people over poorer ones.

Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

We're now coming to those fave Mormon prooftexts...pay attention, M. Remember that earlier James said about one who SEEMS religious but doesn't bridle his tongue, etc. he has deceived himself and his "relgion is in vain". James is going to describe a salvific faith, the kind which SAVES ONE...


Jam 2:14 ¶ What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Remember now, James is speaking about someone who SEEMS religious, SAYS he has "faith" but this kind of "faith" is NOT producing fruit, i.e. NO WORKS. James THEN asks rhetorically, "can faith save him"? Meaning, can this KIND of "faith" (one that isn't evidenced by works) save him? The implied answer is NO: One who SEEMS religious, SAYS he has "faith" but doesn't have WORKS accompanying his said "faith" has DECEIVED himself and his religion is VAIN.

Do you see the overarching CONTEXT here, M? It's about the NATURE of FAITH: What REAL faith is and what a mere said "faith" isn't. James continues his argument by adding another illustration:


Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and des***ute of daily food,


Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

So WHAT is James' MEANING? He answers in the next verse, but he's pointing out that one who SEEMS to be religious, SAYS he has faith, but chooses NOT to clothe or feed someone, "what does it profit"?? In other words, what GOOD is it? It's WORTHLESS. Why worthless? Because the one who SEEMS to be religious, SAYS he has faith, but doesn't feed or clothe the other who is in need demonstrates that his FAITH IS DEAD


Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Again, James is teaching WHAT is REAL FAITH (evidenced by works) and a DEAD FAITH (being alone, no works) which in short is NO faith at all.

Gotta go...will finish this response later!

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

"Overreaching"? You mean like Mormon works-earn-salvation "prooftexts" (or so you think!) at the expense of Paul's NOT BY WORKS p***ages?

Don't forget that to lean to heavily on Paul, you have to ignore what Christ taught his whole earthly mission. He didn't teach by faith but by faith and works.

Marvin

[Mesenja]

James taught that Abraham was vindicated by his works when he offered up his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God.

Paul taught Abraham was forensically justified when he offered up his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

"Overreaching"? You mean like Mormon works-earn-salvation "proof texts" (or so you think!) at the expense of Paul's NOT BY WORKS p***ages?

I never argued this. Your problem is that not only do you have no understanding of what Paul taught concerning works and faith you also have no understanding of what we teach on the subject.

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

I never argued this. Your problem is that not only do you have no understanding of what Paul taught concerning works and faith you also have no understanding of what we teach on the subject.

Actually I think JD has a much better understanding than you do on both these issues.

After all he isn't burdened with having to twist things to somehow (as hopeless a cause as it is) try to make Mormonism seem true while at the same time hoping no one notices the contradictions that you and the other Mormon mopologists are so famous for on this and other forums exposing the lie of Mormonism.

JD and the rest of us Christians here have the freedom to tell it like it is and we do that quite well thank you!

It is you that has no idea what Paul taught concerning works and grace and you have proven that with your twisting of NOT BY WORKS, LEST ANYONE COULD BOAST.

Paul couldn't have said it any plainer and yet you go through all sorts of demonic contortions to support mormonism instead of going by what Paul actually taught.

It would be wise for you to believe Paul instead of Smith and repent or you will surely burn.

Andy

[Father_JD]

Ok, I'm back...let's continue on with a verse by verse exegesis of James.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Again, what is the context, M.? It's about someone who SEEMS religious but has DECEIVED himself and his religion is in VAIN. And NOW, James posits the one who REALLY does have faith, i.e. "I will shew thee my faith by my works", i.e. I will demonstrate that my FAITH IS ALIVE BECAUSE OF WORKS, mine is a SALVIFIC faith which is evidenced by works as opposed to the one who SEEMS religious but has DECEIVED himself and his religion is in VAIN because he demonstrates a "faith" that doesn't have works. Again, the overall context is: What cons***utes REAL FAITH, M.


Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Now James is making comparison between those who pay lip-service to having faith, i.e. they believe there is one God (something you Mos don't believe, btw) and James is saying, "Big deal". The devils ALSO believe. In other words, your SAID faith is as worthless as devils "belief" that there is one God.


Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

And here is his perfect description of one who SEEMS relgious, but is himself DECEIVED, his relgion is in VAIN because his faith is NOT evidenced by WORKS.


Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James is rhetorically asking, wasn't Abraham justified by his "works"? But can James MEAN in a forensic justification with "works" as a CAUSAL AGENT? NO, a thousand times, "NO". No, he means that Abraham's FAITH was a REAL faith, demonstrated by his WORKS. The above is descriptive, NOT prescriptive. Why? Because Paul wrote:

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

Paul says Abraham is NOT JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY HIS WORKS.

Hear Paul yet again:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


We aren't justified in God's sight by "works", but by FAITH in Jesus Christ, a FAITH which is EVIDENCED BY WORKS as James now goes on to state:



Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


His works completed, made Abraham's FAITH perfect...demonstrating that Abraham had REAL Faith as opposed to those who SEEM religious, but have DECEIVED themselves, and their religion is in VAIN because they have NO WORKS TO DEMONSTRATE THE REALITY OF A SALVIFIC FAITH!


Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

And WHY was righteousness imputed to Abraham? Because he BELIEVED GOD and his FAITH was evidenced by WORKS: leaving Mesopotamia, coming close to sacrificing Issac, etc. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Abraham's FAITH was not as those who SEEM relgious, SAY they have "faith", but DECEIVE themselves and their religion is in VAIN because they have NO WORKS which would PROVE that they have FAITH, the KIND of FAITH THAT SAVES ONE.


Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So is James teaching that works justify in addition to faith in a forensic sense? NO. James has been describing all along that a SAVING FAITH WILL RESULT IN WORKS. So James gives a descriptive p***age, that a "by works man is justified, and not by faith only", MEANING the man is JUSTIFIED BY A FAITH THAT HAS WORKS WITH IT.

Now remember what Paul wrote:


Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.


Paul's statement is CATEGORIC: Works do NOT justify in God's SIGHT. They can NOT be a CAUSAL AGENT as is FAITH.


Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

In a forensic way? NO. Why not? Because Paul says, "NOT BEFORE GOD". But Rahab was vindicated, her faith undoubtedly justified in man's eyes by works because she had a FAITH THAT WAS DEMONSTRATED BY WORKS, sending the messengers out another way.


Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Finally, what is James saying? That the people who SEEM religious, SAY they have "faith" but who DECEIVE themselves and their religion is VAIN, because the have NO WORKS. This "kind" of FAITH is DEAD. It is without any salvific value. In short, such a "faith" is NO faith at all. it doesn't exist.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

James taught that Abraham was vindicated by his works when he offered up his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God.

Paul taught Abraham was forensically justified when he offered up his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God.

CF my virtual verse by verse exegesis of the last part of James 1 and ALL of chapter 2.

No, there's NO contradiction because James is saying that Abraham was "justified by works" in the DESCRIPTVE SENSE. His FAITH was the causal factor but it was demonstrated to be a REAL FAITH, DEMONSTRATED BY WORKS.

James is saying, Abraham was JUSTIFIED because His FAITH was EVIDENCED BY WORKS.

It's you Mormons who remain in a state of contradiction because you can't harmonize Paul's categoric words that WORKS DO NOT JUSTIFY ONE (in the forensic sense) IN THE SIGHT OF GOD.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Don't forget that to lean to heavily on Paul, you have to ignore what Christ taught his whole earthly mission. He didn't teach by faith but by faith and works.

Marvin

Bottom line: Paul is in contradiction to Christ. Sure you wanna stick to that lame excuse in order to dismiss Paul, Christ's APOSTLE?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

I never argued this. Your problem is that not only do you have no understanding of what Paul taught concerning works and faith you also have no understanding of what we teach on the subject.

Ri-i-i-i-ight. Go exegete the second part of James 1 and ALL of 2 like I did WITH CROSS-REFERENCES TO PAUL'S TEACHING, present a legitimate alternative "interpretation" and I might believe you. (I know you can't.)

What do YOU teach?

Both Faith and Works are equally causal factors in both justification and salvation.

Are you now gonna dare say I'm in error?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---This is a priceless example of ironic hypocrisy. Let me spell it out for James and anyone else who might need the remedial version:

1. I say the devils believe.

2. FJD says I am wrong because, he says, the devils KNOW.

3. I say the Bible claims the devils BELIEVE.

4. Jim tries to come to the rescue by saying the Bible says the devils KNOW, and Jim also accuses ME of changing what the Bible says.

5. Here is the very bestest part of the whole circus: Jim QUOTES the Bible saying that the devils BELIEVE, and thinks he has proven that it was ME who was wrong!!!

Thanks for the laughs, Jim, you Bible-changing son of a gun.

Here I quote the very verse in question that the devils believe.. Yes then in my restatement of the verse I say that they know who and what God is for after all these were the third of the angelic host that stood in heaven with God.. That was a interpretation of the meaning of that text based on other scripture that tells us who these evil beings were.. You are denying the scripture when you question that these beings don't know that God is one.. They were with Lucifer as He stood before God and was cast out with him (Rev 12:9). So did they know (knowledge) or was it faith (believing)? God asks you to understand His word is His, not John's or Isaiah's. It all fits together into one message, God's message. It is NOT wrong to say these beings KNEW that God is one, and more that it is to say the believe it. Both are true.. Not so funny when you open your eyes Jeff.. When you finally understand the meaning of our teachings and how it fits into just what the Bible tell us.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The first is that nowhere in the New Testament does it say that other men are the determiners of our justification.

The second is that both James and Paul use the same verse,Genesis 15:6,for their argument as to how Abraham was justified and must by necessity offer the same interpretation,or they would be contradicting each other.

That is why one MUST see in these two teachings how men sees faith and how God sees it. God knows the heart. We don't need to show Him our faith at all.. He knows all along if it is a true and living faith or merely a head belief or a feeling one that makes no changes within our hearts..

As humans we can't do this. We can only see who a person really is by the way they act. This is very telling when James says "Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works." Paul taught that this God given faith by which His grace is accessed has good works built into it by that same God who gives us the faith in the first place..

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Both men are teaching the same message.. Both tell it in a way that God wanted it told to the people God wanted to set straight by the message.. Just sitting back and not caring for each other saying "Be warm, be feed, be clothed, be sheltered" won't cut it when they have the ability given to them from God to change the misery of others into comfort..

Understand nothing James said here calls for baptism. Nothing James teaches calls for obedience to Law. He is calling for love. He is calling us to see the needs of those God has put in our lives so we can show His love and that He indeed lives within our hearts.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--Does your Bible really have the phrase "In our eyes he was" ?? Or are you adding your beliefs to make the Bible say what it reallly did NOT say?
What plagues did John pronounce on anyone who would add to the Bible?

Do you claim to see into any man's heart? I can only see Abraham's faith through his actions.. Did God need see Abraham's works before He called him to be the man whom which He choose to bring salvation to all men through? No.. God knew his heart before He called him Abraham and knew it was filled with faith.. For he believed God, and He counted it for righteousness..

God see our Faith man only sees the works of faith.. Therefore "faith without works is dead", but it is Faith that saves.. If a man comes to Jesus in faith and is killed by a bus 2 minutes later, that man is just as saved as if he had been a believing serving christian all his days.. For salvation is "Not of works".. IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You are denying the scripture when you question that these beings don't know that God is one..

--So what you are saying is that when I QUOTE the Bible, I am DENYING it? And when YOU MISQUOTE it by changing what it says into what it "SHOULD have said," then YOU are quoting it ACCURATELY?

Am I the only one who finds this entertaining?

It is NOT wrong to say these beings KNEW that God is one, and more that it is to say the believe it. Both are true..

--So now you're changing from "You are wrong, the Bible doesn't say they believe" to "They BOTH believe AND know" ?? What was wrong with your original accusation against me--did you figure out that the Bible really does say what I quoted it as saying, and now you are trying to do CYA damage control?

Not so funny when you open your eyes Jeff..

---No, it's still funny.

[QUOTE]When you finally understand the meaning of our teachings [/QUOTE]---Yeah, your teachings seem to be that we shouldn't believe what the Bible says--instead, we should believe what YOU CLAIM it really MEANT.

[James Banta]

[nrajeff;67674]--So what you are saying is that when I QUOTE the Bible, I am DENYING it? And when MISQUOTE it by changing what it says into what it "SHOULD have said," then YOU are quoting it ACCURATELY?
Am I the only one who finds this entertaining?

I have shown you with Biblical proof for what I said and stand by it being accurate.. Mormonism teaches that the devils were in heaven with the Father at one time.. James said that they have faith that God is one.. You must be in agreement with me that they have knowledge of God and His nature.. You disagree with James that He is one, but mormonism still holds that these devils would have knowledge of God's nature.

--So now you're changing from "You are wrong, the Bible doesn't say they believe" to "They BOTH believe AND know" ?? What was wrong with your original accusation against me--did you figure out that the Bible really does say what I quoted it as saying, and now you are trying to do CYA damage control?

In my original post on this subject I said that the devils both believe and have knowledge of God's nature.. See we share a belief that they were once angels in heaven. That they know God's nature.. I just happen to believe the words of James in this matter.. "GOD IS ONE!" I am sorry you can't seem to understand..

Because this is a strong belief of mormonism that 1/3 of the host of heaven followed Lucifer and became devils why are you denying that they would KNOW the nature of God? I am not really gifted in discernment but it doesn't take a mind reader to see that all you are doing is trying to cause trouble. You are defending or even trying to teach mormonism you are just being contrary..

When you finally understand the meaning of our teachings ---Yeah, your teachings seem to be that we shouldn't believe what the Bible says--instead, we should believe what YOU CLAIM it really MEANT.

I claim that the devils know that God is One.. You deny that.. After I have showed you both by the Bible and in mormon doctrine that the devils were in heaven with God it is you that doesn't seem to want to believe either.. Have you like Bert become a law unto yourself? If so please explain real mormon doctrine to us because you are not measuring up to the Bible or to Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

No,James is saying that Abraham was forensically justified by faith and that this faith was vindicated by his works.

James 2:20-24

20 But are you willing to recognize,you foolish fellow,that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar ?
22 You see that faith was working with his works,and as a result of the works,faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says,"AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD,AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man isjustified by works and not by faith alone.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have shown you with Biblical proof for what I said and stand by it being accurate..

--I am the one who quoted the Bible verse about the devils believing. I stand by IT being more accurate than you are.

Mormonism teaches that the devils were in heaven with the Father at one time..

James said that they have faith that God is one..

---I am sorry, you will need to quote THAT verse--the one says that the devils have faith. If they have faith, shouldn't that alone save them?

You must be in agreement with me that they have knowledge of God and His nature..

--I don't really believe that they are Trinitarians. I reckon they have an ACCURATE knowledge that God, Jesus, and the HS are each a deity in His own right.

You disagree with James that He is one, but mormonism still holds that these devils would have knowledge of God's nature.

--No, I disagree with TRINITARIANS who believe that the 3 Persons are literelly one being. I don't disagree with St. James, since he never said they were one being.

In my original post on this subject I said that the devils both believe and have knowledge of God's nature..

---Checking....

See it's not that the devils believe is God and choose not to obey Him.. It's that they KNOW that God is one and they tremble!!

(Post 735)

I can't find the post you are talking about, where you said "the devils both believe and have knowledge of God's nature."

Because this is a strong belief of mormonism that 1/3 of the host of heaven followed Lucifer and became devils why are you denying that they would KNOW the nature of God?

--I am not denying it. I am just quoting the Bible and wondering why you disagreed with it.

[Father_JD]

And WHY have you ****n off my verse by verse exegesis of the relevant p***ages in James wherein I demonstrate from the CONTEXT that you're in error?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by James Banta

That is why one MUST see in these two teachings how men sees faith and how God sees it. God knows the heart. We don't need to show Him our faith at all.. He knows all along if it is a true and living faith or merely a head belief or a feeling one that makes no changes within our hearts..

As humans we can't do this. We can only see who a person really is by the way they act. This is very telling when James says "Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works." Paul taught that this God given faith by which His grace is accessed has good works built into it by that same God who gives us the faith in the first place.

1. James and Paul quote from Genesis 15:6,and must have the same interpretation of the verse or risk contradicting each other.

2. If James had a different interpretation of the word justified then Paul then what he said in James 2:24 would make no sense.

3. Nowhere in the New Testament are we ever said to be justified before men.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

1. James and Paul quote from Genesis 15:6,and must have the same interpretation of the verse or risk contradicting each other.

2. If James had a different interpretation of the word justified then Paul then what he said in James 2:24 would make no sense.

3. Nowhere in the New Testament are we ever said to be justified before men.

1. They DO have the same interpretation. It's you who are forcing them into a contradiction because of your unbiblical Mormon belief.

2. James has the same interpretation or understanding of the word, "justified". You misunderstand him to mean that works are also a causal agent in justification when he's identifying the KIND OF FAITH WHICH SAVES ONE.

3. Nonsense. Jesus said that "wisdom is JUSTIFIED by her children".

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

1. They DO have the same interpretation. It's you who are forcing them into a contradiction because of your non biblical Mormon belief.

No if James interprets the meaning of the word justification in Genesis 15:6 to mean a vindication or justification before men he is contradicting Paul.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

2. James has the same interpretation or understanding of the word,"justified". You misunderstand him to mean that works are also a causal agent in justification when he's identifying the KIND OF FAITH WHICH SAVES ONE.

No if James interprets the word justification to mean a vindication or justification before men then what he said in James 2:24 would make no sense.

James 2:24

24 You see that a man is justified [vindicated or justified before men] by works and not by faith alone.

Faith alone would also have to be non-salvific,and only vindicative.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

3. Nonsense. Jesus said that "wisdom is JUSTIFIED by her children".

The word "justified" in Luke 7:35 is metaphorical. It is not metaphorical in James 2:21-25.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Did God need to see Abraham's works before He called him to be the man whom which He choose to bring salvation to all men through? No. IHS Jim

Genesis 22:11-12

11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said,"Abraham, Abraham !" And he said,"Here I am."
12 He said,"Do not stretch out your hand against the lad,and do nothing to him;for now I know that you fear God,since you have not withheld your son,your only son,from Me."

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Genesis 22:11-12

11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said,"Abraham, Abraham !" And he said,"Here I am."
12 He said,"Do not stretch out your hand against the lad,and do nothing to him;for now I know that you fear God,since you have not withheld your son,your only son,from Me."

Thanks for demonstrating not only Mormon obdurateness, but lack of any hermeneutical sophistication and a mind-numbing wooden literalness which discounts both figurative and anthropomorphic language!

You've just demoted ALMIGHTY GOD from being OMNISCIENT (which the Bible DOES teach regarding the BIBLICAL GOD) to the ****-poor idol of JS' imagination.

But LDS don't make God in man's image, huh?

I really pity you, man. You believe in a "god" who's being caught off-guard all the time, taken by complete surprise...a KNOW-NOTHING DEITY and to think you worship this being. Tsk.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Thanks for demonstrating not only Mormon obdurateness, but lack of any hermeneutical sophistication and a mind-numbing wooden literalness which discounts both figurative and anthropomorphic language!

---Where is YOUR sophistication when someone tries to show you that Ezek. 37 could be figurative of the records of two different branches of Israel? Don't you all of sudden you go into wooden literalist mode there?

You've just demoted ALMIGHTY GOD from being OMNISCIENT (which the Bible DOES teach regarding the BIBLICAL GOD) to the ****-poor idol of JS' imagination.

--First, show that JS taught that God is not omniscient. Second, show us why we should believe that Jesus was lying when He claimed (it's in the Bible, BTW) to be less-then-omniscient.

But LDS don't make God in man's image, huh?

---I would argue that it's CALVINISTS who are more guilty of that: They made God into a petty, jealous, vindictive, capricious tyrant, just like they had lots of experience with among their own civilization.

I really pity you, man. You believe in a "god" who's being caught off-guard all the time, taken by complete surprise...a KNOW-NOTHING DEITY and to think you worship this being.

--Given the choice between:

1. one that is absolutely omniscient and omnipotent but tyrannical, and

2. one that is slightly less omniscient and omnipotent, but who is fair and kind, there is only one of the two who deserves worship, and it ain't the one behind Door Number One.



I urge you to switch your choice ASAP.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

2. one that is slightly less omniscient and omnipotent, but who is fair and kind, there is only one of the two who deserves worship, and it ain't the one behind Door Number

So if God does not conform to how you expect Him to be then he is not worthy of your worship? Isn't that just making up a god in your own mind?