No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Are you trying to pretend that you don't believe the facts that I posted? In the old days LDS would defend what they believe, now they use plausible deniability. Oh how things change.

Most of what you have ask me to defend is nothing more than speculation. So why should I defend someone else's speculation? It is not doctrine. This I know. But maybe you can cite some verses that would declare otherwise? So show me that these things are doctrine, and then I will see if those doctrines have comparable citations in the Bible. But until you prove this, you are arguing from a false premise. And if you have a false premise then you cannot have anything other than a false conclusion. And I have no responsibility to defend your false conclusion.

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

You only continue to make yourself look foolish by not answering Billy's question especially considering that Billy was a better Mormon than any Mormon on this board could ever hope to be and he knows exactly what Mormonism teaches.

Funny, I can remember several times that the real LDS have contradicted both you and Billy on what is real doctrine and what is speculation.

I ***ure you that what Billy posted was just speculation because there are no scriptures that I am aware of that make these things doctrrine or even beliefs. Just because you say it is doctrine doesn't make it doctrine. And just because you say I should believe it doesn't mean I actually do.

So until you can come up with verses to support your claim that these things are doctrines, there is no need to defend them. I am not responsible for someone else's speculation.

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

Thank God that Billy has put all that Mormon nonsense behind him and is now securely in the Kingdom of God and his Salvation is ***ured, another thing you pagan lost souls can only wish you had and can have if you repent or burn.

Like I said, just because you said it doesn't make it so.

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

Seems like a no brainier to me, so whatcha waiting for?

Your pride stopping you?

Andy

Doesn't take pride to know that something is not doctrine. And it doesn't take much of a brain to spot speculation.

Sorry to disappoint you Andy but you got nothing here. No doctrine, and no beliefs (which should be based on some kind of scripture). You got nothing.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Most of what you have ask me to defend is nothing more than speculation. So why should I defend someone else's speculation?
Marvin

Marvin I gave you two quotes from your leaders that support the belief that God was once a man. The first quote was from Joseph Smith printed in the Ensign. The second quote was from Lorenzo Snow the 5th LDS prophet. Both quotes agree with my statement. Are you saying the Joseph Smith, the Ensign, and Lorenzo Snow are all teaching false doctrine?

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Marvin I gave you two quotes from your leaders that support the belief that God was once a man. The first quote was from Joseph Smith printed in the Ensign. The second quote was from Lorenzo Snow the 5th LDS prophet. Both quotes agree with my statement. Are you saying the Joseph Smith, the Ensign, and Lorenzo Snow are all teaching false doctrine?

I read your quotes. But I require scripture since that determines whether it is doctrine or not. And I don't have to defend anything but the doctrine.

And you can stop with the strawman arguments. I am not saying anything or accusing anybody of false doctrrine. I don't have to. If it is not in the scriptures, then it is not doctrine, not matter who said it.

So your attempt to get me to argue non-doctrinal matters won't work. If it is not doctrine I don't have to defend it. Period.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

If it is not in the scriptures, it is not doctrine.

That is a complete copout Marvin. That is your old trick saying that we don't really believe something unless it is in our Standard Works. Give me a break. And you expect thinking people to buy into this silly shell game of yours? What really stands out is that you did not even attempt to answer my question. I will repeat it again.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Marvin I gave you two quotes from your leaders that support the belief that God was once a man. The first quote was from Joseph Smith printed in the Ensign. The second quote was from Lorenzo Snow the 5th LDS prophet. Both quotes agree with my statement. Are you saying the Joseph Smith, the Ensign, and Lorenzo Snow are all teaching false doctrine?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

I read your quotes. But I require scripture since that determines whether it is doctrine or not. And I don't have to defend anything but the doctrine.
Marvin

I would like to hear a denial on your part to verify if your truly do not believe what I stated.

Do you deny that God was once a man?

Do you deny that God is married?

Do you deny that God and his wife procreated in heaven to produce spiritual children?

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is a complete copout Marvin. That is your old trick saying that we don't really believe something unless it is in our Standard Works. Give me a break. And you expect thinking people to buy into this silly shell game of yours? What really stands out is that you did not even attempt to answer my question. I will repeat it again.

I don't have to answer your question. As I have said before, I don't have to defend someone else's speculation.

It is not a copout. You refuse to believe anything that is outside of the Bible, don't you? Just the same, I don't have to believe anything that is outside of the standard works. And yet, here you are attempting to force me to defend something that is not in the scriptures!! Why is that. Don't I have the same privileges as you do? Don't I have the right to declare the standard by which I determine what is and is not doctrine? And yet, you are attempting to tell me what is supose to be my doctrine or belief and demanding that I defend it. I tell you straight, I don't have to defend someone else's speculation. I don't buy it and won't let you sell it.

Why don't you tell me why I should have to defend something that is not doctrine? And why you don't?

Marvin

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I would like to hear a denial on your part to verify if your truly do not believe what I stated.

Do you deny that God was once a man?

Do you deny that God is married?

Do you deny that God and his wife procreated in heaven to produce spiritual children?

No comment.

I have privately held beliefs, but I do not have to reveal them to you. As I have stated before, I don't have to defends someone else's speculation.

Marvin

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

No comment.

I have privately held beliefs, but I do not have to reveal them to you. As I have stated before, I don't have to defends someone else's speculation.

Marvin

Because you believe all of the things that I stated and you know it. You are simply using "plausible deniability" like I predicted you would do.

BTW, those beliefs are not private. I gave you two quotes from two of your prophets that clearly state that God was once a man. This is no secret.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because you believe all of the things that I stated and you know it.

---Well, now what have we here--now you're claiming to know what every LDS person believes--even the ones who refuse to tell you what they believe?

But I thought you said that you CAN'T know, because you admitted that LDS are "all over the map" regarding their individual beliefs--they don't all conform to what SLC teaches, proving they are not brainwashed to all believe the same thing.

NOW you're switching back to the "I know what all LDS believe" junk?
Does your accusation change every other day? Lessee, today is Wednesday, so it's "Billy claims all LDS believe the same thing and he knows what they believe" day.

So tomorrow will be "LDS beliefs vary with each individual member" day?

This is good comedy.

BTW, those beliefs are not private. I gave you two quotes from two of your prophets that clearly state that God was once a man. This is no secret

---Um, I think what Marvin meant was that whether or not he personally subscribes to the non-canonical conclusions that other people have believed, is Marvin's business. It's not that those non-canonical beliefs have never been publicized. Sheesh. If you exegete the Bible as accurately as you exegete Forum posts, it's no wonder you have some mistaken beliefs about God and about salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Well, now what have we here--now you're claiming to know what every LDS person believes--even the ones who refuse to tell you what they believe?

Originally Posted by Billyray

I would like to hear a denial on your part to verify if your truly do not believe what I stated.

Do you deny that God was once a man?

Do you deny that God is married?

Do you deny that God and his wife procreated in heaven to produce spiritual children?

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

No comment.

I have privately held beliefs, but I do not have to reveal them to you. As I have stated before, I don't have to defends someone else's speculation.

Marvin

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because you believe all of the things that I stated and you know it. You are simply using "plausible deniability" like I predicted you would do.

Jeff, if you read the posts you would already know that I DID ask Marvin what he believed. He simply refused to answer my questions. The reason? Plausible deniability. But I will give Marvin a chance to prove me wrong and tell me he does not believe that god was once a man if he so chooses.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Um, I think what Marvin meant was that whether or not he personally subscribes to the non-canonical conclusions that other people have believed, is Marvin's business. It's not that those non-canonical beliefs have never been publicized. Sheesh. If you exegete the Bible as accurately as you exegete Forum posts, it's no wonder you have some mistaken beliefs about God and about salvation.

Now your turn Jeff

Do you believe that god was once a man?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Now your turn Jeff. Do you believe that god was once a man?

Do you believe that Jesus was once a man?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Do you believe that Jesus was once a man?

No I do not believe that God the Father was ever a man on another planet like the LDS church teaches.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Do you believe that Jesus was once a man?

Originally Posted by Billyray

No I do not believe that God the Father was ever a man on another planet like the Latter-day Saint church teaches.

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?

Did you guess which thing was not like the others?
Did you guess which thing just doesn't belong?
If you guessed this one is not like the others,
Then you're absolutely...right!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Did you understand the question?

I completely understood that you changed the question that we had been discussing as a diversion. We were talking about the LDS belief that God the Father was once a man. In fact here is your reply

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Cite the scriptures Billy
Are you trying to pretend that you believe the facts that you made up?

Notice how silly your response is by saying that I pretended to make up the fact. I provided two separate quotes from your own prophets that support my position. Now your are trying the old bait and switch to try and recover from your previous misstep. What a joke.

[Billyray]

Delete post

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I completely understood that you changed the question that we had been discussing as a diversion. We were talking about the Latter-day Saint belief that God the Father was once a man.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Notice how silly your response is by saying that I pretended to make up the fact. I provided two separate quotes from your own prophets that support my position. Now your are trying the old bait and switch to try and recover from your previous misstep. What a joke.

You understood my question yet you gave me a completely off topic answer. I am glad that it is nothing more serious then a perceived lack of comprehension on my part. I will repeat the question that I gave you. Can you give me the courtesy of a yes or no answer?

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Do you believe that Jesus was once a man?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

You understood my question yet you gave me a completely off topic answer.

Because this whole time we were talking about God the Father. Didn't you even realize this when you made your statement "Are you trying to pretend that you believe the facts that you made up?"?

BTW do you believe that God the Father was once a man? You never answered this question.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

He was taught the true nature of God. . .

Originally Posted by Billyray

Really? Then it wouldn't be too hard for you to substantiate some of your beliefs about god for us in the Bible. Where can I read about god once being a man, or that god is married, or that god has celestial sex?

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Are you trying to pretend that you believe the facts that you made up?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Lets start with the first one. God was once a man. The first reference is from the LDS Ensign. The second reference is from Lorenzo Snow the 5th President of the LDS Church.

1. Joseph Smith Jr., “The King Follett Sermon,” Ensign, Apr 1971, 13–14
God an Exalted Man
I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.
End of Ensign article


2. Lorenzo Snow couplet
"As man is God once was, as God is man may be."

Mesenja, don't try and change the subject.

You asked for support, I gave you two references above.

Do you believe Joseph Smith, the Ensign, and Lorenzo Snow are teaching true principles about God the Father was once a man?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because this whole time we were talking about God the Father. Didn't you even realize this when you made your statement "Are you trying to pretend that you believe the facts that you made up?"? By the way do you believe that God the Father was once a man? You never answered this question.

You believed that I gave an off topic question in an attempt to divert the topic under discussion. In response to this you gave an off topic reply in an attempt to divert my question. Let me make my own argument Billy.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

You believed that I gave an off topic question in an attempt to divert the topic under discussion. In response to this you gave an off topic reply in an attempt to divert my question.

You did give a diversionary question to the subject that we were speaking about and I did not let you get away with changing the subject. Do you really think that you can divert away from the subject and nobody will notice? Maybe in Mormonland it works but not here.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff, if you read the posts you would already know that I DID ask Marvin what he believed.

--Did I SAY you never asked? No. So why are you even saying what you're saying? It makes no sense.

He simply refused to answer my questions. The reason? Plausible deniability.

--Oh, so NOW, besides you thinking you know what his beliefs are, you claim to know the reason WHY he didn't answer? What a laugh.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--Oh, so NOW, besides you thinking you know what his beliefs are, you claim to know the reason WHY he didn't answer? What a laugh.

I have asked both you and Marvin what you believe with respect to god the Father once being a man. I would love to know the answer, but thus far you both have refused to answer. What is the big secret? Do you think that if you answer your programming will begin to unfold?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I have asked both you and Marvin what you believe with respect to god the Father once being a man. I would love to know the answer

---So today you're claiming to NOT already know the answer? This IS Thursday, after all, so it seems my "every other day" hypothesis might be correct...

(Tuesday and Thursday: "LDS beliefs vary with each individual member" day)

but thus far you both have refused to answer.

---- Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

What is the big secret? Do you think that if you answer your programming will begin to unfold?

---You're off your schedule: Today is Thursday, so you're supposed to switch from "All LDS are programmed to believe the same thing" to "Beliefs vary with each individual member." You can't use the "programmed/brainwashed" accusation until tomorrow.
Maybe you can hang a calendar over your computer, and label the days you're reversing your attacks. Being organized can help the novice Self-apointed Attacker of LDS attack more efficiently and keep his embarr***ing mistakes to a minimum.