No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Mesenja]

Billy I am not trying to change the subject. I am drawing a comparison which is the basis for my argument. Let me rephrase my question for you. Do you believe that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man who,without ceasing to be God and Lord,became a man and our brother? If you do not have any objections to this then you have no basis for objecting that God was once a man.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Really? Then it wouldn't be too hard for you to substantiate some of your beliefs about god for us in the Bible. Where can I read about god once being a man,or that god is married,or that god has celestial sex?

Where can I read that God has celestial sex except in anti-M* literature?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---So today you're claiming to NOT already know the answer? This IS Thursday, after all, so it seems my "every other day" hypothesis might be correct...

I certainly know the answer based on what I was taught about these subjects when I was LDS. But I am asking you and Marvin your beliefs because all LDS do not have the same beliefs and often can conflict with official LDS teachings.

Was God the Father once a man who lived on another planet? Come on this is not a hard question.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Billy I am not trying to change the subject. I am drawing a comparison which is the basis for my argument.

Mesenja, you are changing the subject. Lets finish the first one before we move on.

Do you believe that God the Father was once a man who lived on another planet?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Where can I read that God has celestial sex except in anti-M* literature?

Is this something that you don't believe or have never been taught as an LDS member? Really? Why do you believe that this is something that I was taught while a LDS member which of course is not from A mormon literature?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Is this something that you don't believe or have never been taught as an LDS member? Really? Why do you believe that this is something that I was taught while a LDS member which of course is not from a-Mormon literature?

Tell us where else except in anti-M sources does the concept and even the terminology ever comes up of God having celestial sex? I will tell everyone interested exactly where you got this specific term. It was from the film the God Makers,produced by Jeremiah Films in 1982,and co-produced by Ed Decker and Dave Hunt.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Tell us where else except in anti-M. . .

Not so fast Mesenja. Let's get the first two addressed first before we move to the third.

1. God the Father was once a man

2. God the Father is married

3. God has celestial sex with his wife

Give me your answers to 1 and 2 first before we move on. I am not going to allow you to change the subject.

[Mesenja]

In the same way that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man who,without ceasing to be God,became a man.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

In the same way that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man who,without ceasing to be God,became a man.

We are speaking about the LDS god the father who is a separate and distinct god. So you agree that the father was a man who lived on another planet?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Where can I read that God has celestial sex except in anti-M* literature?

"[God] created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be."
— Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 11:122..

That's pretty direct, Mesenja. How do you suppose most people would take that, if they are reading at face value? Brigham says straight up that God created man just as we create our own children. I don't think you can blame the critics for believing him.

[James Banta]

Add to this:

God lives in the family unit. He is our Father in heaven—the literal and personal Father of the spirits of all men. He begat us; we are the offspring of Heavenly Parents: we have an Eternal Father and an Eternal Mother. We were born as spirits, and we dwelt in the presence of our Eternal Parents; we lived before our mortal birth. As spirits we were in all respects as we are now save only that we were not housed in mortal bodies as is the present circumstance. Christ was the Firstborn of all the heavenly host; Lucifer was a son of the morning: each of us came into being as conscious iden***ies in our appointed order; and Christ is our Elder Brother. (Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, vol. 1, p. 21)

IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

That's pretty direct, Mesenja. How do you suppose most people would take that, if they are reading at face value? Brigham says straight up that God created man just as we create our own children. I don't think you can blame the critics for believing him.

Libby that is a good quote. Here is one in the 2010 Gospel Principles. I was holding out to get Mesenja to answer the first two before moving on.

GOSPEL PRINCIPLES 2010
“Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family,” Gospel Principles, (2009),8–12
We Are Children of Our Heavenly Father
• What do scriptures and latter-day prophets teach us about our relationship to God?
God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."
END OF GOSPEL PRINCIPLES QUOTE


These are three points that I was taught as an LDS member. Back in the day there wasn't a push to hide these doctrine. But today it seems like these subjects are taboo and plausible deniability runs king. Deny deny deny seems to be the motto. When called out they then change the subject or use ad hominem attacks. It is par for the course.

1. God the Father was once a man
2. God the Father is married
3. God has celestial sex with his wife

[Billyray]

Celestial sex 2nd reference

"The family of God. The Mormons believe that all men were born in the spirit world of the union of the sexes, having a literal father and a literal mother before coming to this world, that the spirits are just the same in appearance as the body, that God is a married Being, has a wife at least, as Jeremiah said the angels were offering incense to the queen of heaven."
GOSPEL TRUTH: DISCOURSES AND WRITINGS OF PRESIDENT GEORGE Q. CANNON CHAPTER 10 Deity—The Mormon Conception Page 102

George Quayle Cannon (January 11, 1827 – April 12, 1901) was an early member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), and served in the First Presidency under four successive presidents of the church: Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and Lorenzo Snow. He was the church's chief political strategist, and was dubbed "the Mormon premier" and "the Mormon Richelieu" by the press. He was also five-time Territorial Delegate from Utah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Q._Cannon

[Billyray]

Celestial sex 3rd reference

LDS Apostle John A. Widtsoe
"Sex Among the Gods. Sex, which is indispensable on this earth for the perpetuation of the human race, is an eternal quality which has its equivalent everywhere. It is indestructible. The relationship between men and women is eternal and must continue eternally. In accordance with Gospel philosophy there are males and females in heaven. Since we have a Father, who is our God, we must also have a mother, who possesses the attributes of Godhood. This simply carries onward the logic of things earthly, and conforms with the doctrine that whatever is on this earth is simply a representation of spiritual conditions of deeper meaning than we can here fathom."
RATIONAL THEOLOGY by John A. Widtsoe Page 64

John Andreas Widtsoe (pronounced /ˈwɪtsoʊ/, 31 January 1872 – 29 November 1952) was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) from 1921 until his death. Widtsoe was also a noted author, scientist, and academician.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Widtsoe

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby that is a good quote. Here is one in the 2010 Gospel Principles. I was holding out to get Mesenja to answer the first two before moving on.

GOSPEL PRINCIPLES 2010
“Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family,” Gospel Principles, (2009),8–12
We Are Children of Our Heavenly Father
• What do scriptures and latter-day prophets teach us about our relationship to God?
God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."
END OF GOSPEL PRINCIPLES QUOTE


These are three points that I was taught as an LDS member. Back in the day there wasn't a push to hide these doctrine. But today it seems like these subjects are taboo and plausible deniability runs king. Deny deny deny seems to be the motto. When called out they then change the subject or use ad hominem attacks. It is par for the course.

1. God the Father was once a man
2. God the Father is married
3. God has celestial sex with his wife

That quote is even better and much more recent.

Yes, the teaching on this has become much more vague and convoluted. I was taught that the birth of our spirits, in the CK, was not exactly like human sex, but a Celestial version of it, which is unknown, as far as specifics. I even argued this version very p***ionately over on Concerned Christians..even AFTER I left the church....until Aaron Shaf brought on a bunch of quotes I had never seen. I do believe the early Saints believed that sex in the Celestial Kingdom was much like what we have here. That is a very unpopular idea, in the church, now...probably because critics have made it such an issue.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Where can I read that God has celestial sex except in anti-M* literature?

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Are you trying to pretend that you believe the facts that you made up?

I gave you three LDS references

1. GOSPEL PRINCIPLES 2010

2. LDS apostle George Q Cannon

3. LDS apostle John A. Widtsoe

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

In the same way that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man who, without ceasing to be God,became a man.

The problem with your statement is that LDS do not believe that Jesus has ALWAYS been God. The LDS Jesus became a God a some point in time unlike the Christian God which has been God from everlasting to everlasting. Again just another concept that places Mormonism outside of mainstream Christianity.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The problem with your statement is that LDS do not believe that Jesus has ALWAYS been God. The LDS Jesus became a God a some point in time unlike the Christian God which has been God from everlasting to everlasting. Again just another concept that places Mormonism outside of mainstream Christianity.

This sounds suspiciously like the heresy of Sabellianism which would place you outside of mainstream Christianity.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

This sounds suspiciously like the heresy of Sabellianism which would place you outside of mainstream Christianity.

I see nothing in Billy's statement that would indicate that.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

We are speaking about the LDS God the Father who is a separate and distinct god. So you agree that the father was a man who lived on another planet?

I said that God was once a man in the same way that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man who,without ceasing to be God,became a man. There is a qualitative difference between this statement and yours.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

I said that God was once a man in the same way that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man who,without ceasing to be God,became a man. There is a qualitative difference between this statement and yours.

So you do believe that God the Father was a man who live on another planet?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Originally Posted by Billyray

The problem with your statement is that LDS do not believe that Jesus has ALWAYS been God. The LDS Jesus became a God a some point in time unlike the Christian God which has been God from everlasting to everlasting. Again just another concept that places Mormonism outside of mainstream Christianity.

This sounds suspiciously like the heresy of Sabellianism which would place you outside of mainstream Christianity.

Can you elaborate how you came to this conclusion based on my statement?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Billy I am not trying to change the subject. I am drawing a comparison which is the basis for my argument. Let me rephrase my question for you. Do you believe that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man who,without ceasing to be God and Lord,became a man and our brother? If you do not have any objections to this then you have no basis for objecting that God was once a man.

'was once"?????

That is incorrect.
A better way to understand this is that Jesus is now and forever both God and Man in union.
equal to the father in his divine nature, equal to men in his humanity.

There will never be a time when Jesus will be less than God or less than man.
So we cant say that Jesus 'was once" a man, because he still is and will always be a man...



The Word was with God, the Word was God, the Word became flesh.
The Word never stopped being God, and the nature of God is unchanged...

But the Son has a 2nd nature...and that is his nature of being human too.

So while we believe that Jesus is God in the flesh....we dont believe that the Divine nature was changed in this, rather the Son was given a 2nd new nature that the father does not share...


So the Son is always equal to the father in his Divine nature, and now always equal to men in his human nature...

2 natures in the one person = Jesus

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Foolish idea about what THE TRUE CHURCH is.. It's not the Baptists, not the Lutherans, It's not a nondenominational church.. The true Church is the body of Jesus. This is the Church that ONLY JESUS can add you to as he saves you (Acts 2:47).. Good heavens you have no idea what the Church even is! IHS jim

Dang, this bro takes the bullseye and lays it on the landmark “Rock”! Amen!

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Dang, this bro takes the bullseye and lays it on the landmark “Rock”! Amen!

Bless you too.. I can't take credit for the word I share. Most of it is directly from His word. I am outspoken though.. Welcome to the forum, may God use you to bring His word to the lost here as well.. We need workmen in this field. The harvest is ready.. IHS jim