No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Do I ask a Catholic or do I ask a Protestant.

Don't be silly. The Bible is God's revelation to us. The answers to your questions and my questions are in it. Us means you and me. Remember to A-Z scale? A is the true meaning of what God has revealed to us, not B or C or D or P (Mormonism). So why go B or C or D or P source rather than the A source?

[Mark Beesley]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I notice that you did not give us your explanation. I would like to hear your understanding of this verse.

It means that before Jesus Christ was born into mortality, He (like all the rest of us) lived in the Pre-existence with Heavenly Father, and that it was through Him that Heavenly Father created everything that was created.

According to Mormonism God the Father is a God. God the Father created Jesus by taking his intelligence and making it into a spirit baby, Jesus then progressed on from there to become a God, i.e. God creates or organizes other gods. The same is true for you--aren't you a god in utero? Don't you recall the Lorenzo Snow couplet? "As man is God once was, as God is man may be."

You are talking about stuff here that very, very little has been revealed about. Indeed, way more is speculated than has been revealed. I agree with President Hinckley -- I understant the theological unpinnings for what Lorenzo Snow said, but we don't really know much about those things.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

It means that before Jesus Christ was born into mortality, He (like all the rest of us) lived in the Pre-existence with Heavenly Father, and that it was through Him that Heavenly Father created everything that was created.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

So from your LDS perspective you don't really believe this verse as it stands correct?

Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

You are talking about stuff here that very, very little has been revealed about. Indeed, way more is speculated than has been revealed. I agree with President Hinckley -- I understant the theological unpinnings for what Lorenzo Snow said, but we don't really know much about those things.

1. Intelligence----->Spirit child
2. Spirit Child is born to Heavenly parents
3. Jesus is a spiritual child born to Heavenly parents
4. Jesus was not god at his spiritual birth by Heavenly parents
5. Jesus became a god as he progressed.

Do you agree with the above?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Give us a specific question and we can look through the Bible for your answer.

I posed the question about baptism to highlight the issue that you can not make an appeal to the Bible for every answer.

Originally Posted by Mesenja

1. Catholics believe that the sacrament of baptism is the way we receive God's grace and how justification is given to us. Our agency in accepting or rejecting this ordinance is the beginning of our faith in Christ and our cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.


2. Protestants believe that the ordinance of baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

The reason for this is simple. Both Catholics and Protestants will make scriptural arguments from the Bible to defend their position on baptism. Both take completely opposite views.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The reason for this is simple. Both Catholics and Protestants will make scriptural arguments from the Bible to defend their position on baptism. Both take completely opposite views.

If both take opposite views then one is wrong or they both are wrong. So your question appears to be--"Is baptism required FOR salvation"? We are commanded to be baptized thus we would likely agree on this point and the majority of Christians do get baptized. But the question is not whether or not we should be baptized but rather is it an absolute requirement or a work on our part to be saved. Bottom line--we are either saved by faith OR saved by our works because faith + works = works.

Is there scripture evidence that we are saved by faith and not by works. Absolutely. If this is the case then how can you then say that works are required? You can't. Some verses may be interpreted by some that baptism is required but this would contradict the clear message in the NT that we are saved by our faith not our works.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Billy said that ""everyone would like to think that they are right about every issue concerning Jesus but this may not be possible."

I have asked you to have Billy come and tell me how wrong I am and strighten me out.. He hasn't.. I can only beieve that your mind is processing his statements differently than I do and it is your intrputation that is wrong and not a disagreement on this issue between Bill and myself.. IHS jim

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have asked you to have Billy come and tell me how wrong I am and straighten me out. He hasn't. I can only believe that your mind is processing his statements differently than I do and it is your interpretation that is wrong and not a disagreement on this issue between Bill and myself. IHS Jim

If you want to constantly validate yourself and show how infallible you are in every one of your biblical interpretations then you take it up with Billy. You said "100% or nothing" as opposed to Billy who said that this was not possible on "every issue concerning Jesus". If you refuse either see that there is a disagreement or constantly dismiss it and avoid defending your position it wont go away no matter how hard you try.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have asked you to have Billy come and tell me how wrong I am and strighten me out.. He hasn't.. I can only beieve that your mind is processing his statements differently than I do and it is your intrputation that is wrong and not a disagreement on this issue between Bill and myself.. IHS jim

Jim, my guess is that we are pretty close in our beliefs. Mesenja seems to think that if she can show minor differences in our beliefs then this will somehow support her position. But I don't really get it. It is like you and I holding up two sheets of paper of a slightly different shade of white and her holding up a black piece of paper, that is how I view all three of our positions.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

If you want to constantly validate yourself and show how infallible you are in every one of your biblical interpretations then you take it up with Billy. You said "100% or nothing" as opposed to Billy who said that this was not possible on "every issue concerning Jesus". If you refuse either see that there is a disagreement or constantly dismiss it and avoid defending your position it wont go away no matter how hard you try.

And I still say you either agree with God through His word of your don't.. 100% agreement of it's 100% disagreement.. Mormons do not agree with the Bible 100%.. I know many people that don't.. If they are in such disagreement with God's word they are 100% wrong! A little leaven leavens the whole lump.. It's that simple.. Find any Christian that disagrees with that.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jim, my guess is that we are pretty close in our beliefs. Mesenja seems to think that if she can show minor differences in our beliefs then this will somehow support her position. But I don't really get it. It is like you and I holding up two sheets of paper of a slightly different shade of white and her holding up a black piece of paper, that is how I view all three of our positions.

I don't believe for a moment that you and I disagree on a single point of doctrine taught in the Bible.. Not that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the one true God. Not that Jesus is the Son or that He didn't come to rescue us in our sin. Or that He wasn't born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, died for our sin, was buried and raised then third day according to the scripture.. Just what does she think we are going to disagree about? Baptism? The p***age commanding baptism can be translated to say in, or with water.. All it is, is a statement of faith anyway.. It's not like water can wash away sin anyway that takes blood, the blood of the Spotless Lamb.. This is the truth and it is like a gl*** with clean pure water.. If anyone adds to this or changes it only filth can be added. Like saying that Jesus is a creation and not the creator of ALL things. That would be adding a little bit of filth (Sewer water) to the pure. Saying that a man can receive forgiveness of sin by any means other than the blood of Jesus, is another few drops of filth.. How much needs to be added before the gl*** is totally filth? I have news for them. It was filth as soon as the first impure drop was mixed in to the purity.. How could it be less than that.. Jesus told us we must be perfect even as the Father is perfect.. The only way that we can do this is if Jesus gives us His righteousness, our own is way past contaminated. I praise Him for the grace He gives to all who will TURN to Jesus and recieve life. IHS jim

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jim,my guess is that we are pretty close in our beliefs. Mesenja seems to think that if she can show minor differences in our beliefs then this will somehow support her position. But I don't really get it. It is like you and I holding up two sheets of paper of a slightly different shade of white and her holding up a black piece of paper,that is how I view all three of our positions.

It has nothing to do with the similarity between your beliefs about Jesus. James insist that it's "100% agreement or it's 100% disagreement" and you equate this with it not being possible to agree on "every issue concerning Jesus".

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Just what does she think we are going to disagree about? Baptism? The p***age commanding baptism can be translated to say in, or with water.. All it is, is a statement of faith anyway.. It's not like water can wash away sin anyway that takes blood, the blood of the Spotless Lamb.

---Doesn't the Bible say that baptism for the remission of sins is a commandment? If baptism is part of the process by which a person's sins are remitted, and if no one can have eternal life unless his sins get remitted, then baptism is one of the requirements for eternal life. Simple as that. Jesus commanded JTB to baptize Him, so people would know how important baptism is in the fulfilling of all righteousness. If you don't get baptized, then you haven't yet fulfilled all righteousness, and if you haven't fulfilled all righteousness yet, you can't have eternal life yet.

This is the truth and it is like a gl*** with clean pure water.. If anyone adds to this or changes it only filth can be added

---Like adding a "T" "U" "L" "I" and a "P" to the requirements for eternal life. You Calvinists contaminated the gospel.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Doesn't the Bible say that baptism . . .is a commandment?

Yes

Originally Posted by nrajeff

If baptism is part of the process by which a person's sins are remitted. . .

Salvation is by faith, not a bunch of works like the LDS church teaches.

BTW did Ted Bundy have his sins remitted by being baptized in the LDS church?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Doesn't the Bible say that baptism for the remission of sins is a commandment? If baptism is part of the process by which a person's sins are remitted, and if no one can have eternal life unless his sins get remitted, then baptism is one of the requirements for eternal life. Simple as that. Jesus commanded JTB to baptize Him, so people would know how important baptism is in the fulfilling of all righteousness. If you don't get baptized, then you haven't yet fulfilled all righteousness, and if you haven't fulfilled all righteousness yet, you can't have eternal life yet.


---Like adding a "T" "U" "L" "I" and a "P" to the requirements for eternal life. You Calvinists contaminated the gospel.

Is baptism a requirement of the Law since it was commanded? YES! What does the Bible say about works of the law?

Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Therefore in Baptism, a work of the law, there is no justification.. No remission of sin just because of a short plunge in water.. Sorry dear one but that requires blood, And not just any blood but the blood of a spotless pure sacrifice.. Therefore baptism is no more a requirement for salvation and eternal life than any other good work.. For we are commanded to preform good works that God foreordained we should walk in.. Jeff daily you fail in the commandments of Jesus, don't you? He commanded you to be perfect today.. Where you? That is in thought and deed. Did you fail the Lord even in a very slight way today? Of course you did! So you confirm that living the commandments is NOT the WAY to eternal life. At least that can't be seen by the way we live our lives. Jeff you have heard me and other say this again and again.. Jesus is the Way the only WAY.

Jeff lying is listed in Rev 21:8 with some very evil sins like MURDER. But not being baptized it isn't mentioned there at all.. That would tell me that the sin of neglecting baptism isn't as serious before God as lying is.. But you should know by now that Christians hold that all sin is serious because it will separate us from God.. I praise Jesus for standing in my place, taking the punishment I deserved, and giving me eternal live through faith in Jesus.. I have come to trust Him not some work preformed by me of because of me by men. Jesus fulfilled all righteousness for me in every way.. There is nothing I can do that will make me clean and spotless before a Holy God.. That was all done in the sacrifice of JESUS. There is no other way to get to the Father but by Him..NO WAY; not by temples, ***hes, offering to the poor,or baptism.. It is all complete in and only in Jesus..

You never did tell me what sin one of your children could commit that would cause you to say they are no longer your child and welcome in your home. Once they were born to you they weren't guaranteed a place in your home forever? I know I am not a parent in anyway equal to God but I love my kids.. They have often failed themselves and locked me out of their lives. But I still love them and they are my children. They will remain such as long as God allows me to hold them in my memory.. Why would God be less of a Father? Once a person becomes a child of God, so they are for all time. IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Yes

---Thank you. (Doesn't the Bible say that baptism for the remission of sins is a commandment?)

Salvation is by faith, not a bunch of works like the LDS church teaches.

---Doesn't the Bible say that remission of sins comes through a process that baptism is part of? I.e., doesn't the Bible say that there is a connection between baptism and the remission of sins?

BTW did Ted Bundy have his sins remitted by being baptized in the LDS church?

---What sins? How should I know? Only the Godhead and the person in question knows, much of the time, whether a person has sincerely repented of a sin, and whether a person's baptism was efficacious. That's why only the Godhead gets to decide who goes where in the afterlife. At least that is what I think is taught in the Bible. I think it would be very arrogant and presumptuous and tacky for someone to go around asking other people "Have Billy Ray's sins been remitted?" As if any of us would actually know the answer. Tell ya what: You feel free to ask God or Ted in the afterlife about the status of Ted's sins, if you run into either God or Ted.

BTW, if you were really an RM, I would have thought you'd already know, and not need to be taught by me, the LDS doctrine that baptism is efficacious in remitting a person's sins if that person has faith in Jesus, has sincerely repented of those sins, and the person is baptized by an authorized person.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Doesn't the Bible say that remission of sins comes through a process that baptism is part of? I.e., doesn't the Bible say that there is a connection between baptism and the remission of sins?

Salvation is clearly by faith and not by works as best noted in the verse in Ephesians 2.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Our sins are remitted by the blood of Christ not by dunking in a water bathtub. However we are commanded to be baptized and this symbolizes not only the death burial and resurrection of Christ but also our death burial and resurrection into a new life with Christ. The act of baptism is symbolic--the act itself does not remit sins in and of itself or else Ted Bundy's sins would of been reemitted by his LDS baptism.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

[COLOR="Purple"]
BTW, if you were really an RM,

You are inferring that I did not serve a LDS mission. Do you really believe that I am making this up?

[Mark Beesley]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

So from your LDS perspective you don't really believe this verse as it stands correct?

Of course I believe it. I just told you what it means. Are you saying I have to understand it in exactly the same way you understand it in order to believe it?

1. Intelligence----->Spirit child
2. Spirit Child is born to Heavenly parents
3. Jesus is a spiritual child born to Heavenly parents
4. Jesus was not god at his spiritual birth by Heavenly parents
5. Jesus became a god as he progressed.

Do you agree with the above?

As I said before, very little has been revealed concerning these matters. Most of what a lot of LDS Christians believe concerning these thing is based on what they believe to logically follow from what little has been revealed. I don't fault them for that. They may be right. As for me, I have decided not to believe or disbelieve either way. I simply do not know. For the me, the seminal verse is the following:

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Isaiah 55

So, when you start using terms like parents, and born, and god, and progressed, I'm uncertain how those terms fit into the eternities where God dwells.

But before you or anyone thinks I am not a Mormon because I do not pay lip-service to everything you want to define as Mormonism, let me reiterate that I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that Joseph Smith's work was divinely inspired, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is engaged in the work of the Lord in preparing a people for the Second Coming of our Savior. That work includes preaching the gospel, redeeming the dead, and perfecting the saints. It does not include becoming caught up in every wind of doctrine that ****s. There is an eternity to learn and understand those peripheral matters.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

1. Intelligence----->Spirit child
2. Spirit Child is born to Heavenly parents
3. Jesus is a spiritual child born to Heavenly parents
4. Jesus was not god at his spiritual birth by Heavenly parents
5. Jesus became a god as he progressed.


So, when you start using terms like parents, and born, and god, and progressed, I'm uncertain how those terms fit into the eternities where God dwells.

Mark, these concepts are clearly taught in LDS manuals. For example here is a quote from the Gospel Principles Manual 2009 edition that touches on all the points above except number one.

“Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family,” Gospel Principles, (2009),8–12
"God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Don't be silly. The Bible is God's revelation to us. The answers to your questions and my questions are in it. Us means you and me. Remember to A-Z scale? A is the true meaning of what God has revealed to us,not B or C or D or P (Mormonism). So why go B or C or D or P source rather than the A source?

I just gave you an example of where two opposite interpretations are given yet both parties make their arguments from the Bible. Here it is again Billy.


1. Catholics believe that the sacrament of baptism is the way we receive God's grace and how justification is given to us. Our agency in accepting or rejecting this ordinance is the beginning of our faith in Christ and our cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.


2. Protestants believe that the ordinance of baptism is not a requirement for salvation

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If both take opposite views then one is wrong or they both are wrong. So your question appears to be--"Is baptism required FOR salvation"? We are commanded to be baptized thus we would likely agree on this point and the majority of Christians do get baptized. But the question is not whether or not we should be baptized but rather is it an absolute requirement or a work on our part to be saved. Bottom line--we are either saved by faith OR saved by our works because faith + works=works.

Is there scripture evidence that we are saved by faith and not by works. Absolutely. If this is the case then how can you then say that works are required? You can't. Some verses may be interpreted by some that baptism is required but this would contradict the clear message in the New Testament that we are saved by our faith not our works.

The Catholic church takes a completely opposite view and yet your position is that the Bible is self interpreting. It appears that you are unwilling to answer this question. All you are doing is running around in circles. Without offering proof that baptism is a work or that we are saved by faith alone you are simply ***erting the conclusion in another form. This is a poor example to prove that the Bible is self intepreting.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

It has nothing to do with the similarity between your beliefs about Jesus. Jim insists that it's "100% agreement or it's 100% disagreement" and you equate this with it not being possible to agree on "every issue concerning Jesus".

I don't understand your compaint here at all.. Billy never said he disagreed with me about the nature of Jesus in any way. I never said I disagreed wih Billy.. I see a 100% agreement on the divine nature of Jesus.. IHS jim

[Mark Beesley]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Mark, these concepts are clearly taught in LDS manuals. For example here is a quote from the Gospel Principles Manual 2009 edition that touches on all the points above except number one.

“Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family,” Gospel Principles, (2009),8–12
"God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335)."

So? I explained that in rest of my post that you did not quote.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

So? I explained that in rest of my post that you did not quote.

I believe that this is the section of your post that you are referring to, if not then please post the section that you are referring to.

Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

As I said before, very little has been revealed concerning these matters. Most of what a lot of LDS Christians believe concerning these thing is based on what they believe to logically follow from what little has been revealed. I don't fault them for that. They may be right. As for me, I have decided not to believe or disbelieve either way. I simply do not know. For the me, the seminal verse is the following:

I guess I don't understand why you say that very little has been revealed when it is printed in Gospel Principles, which contain the principles of the gospel.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Salvation is clearly by faith and not by works as best noted in the verse in Ephesians 2.

--Are you saying that your answer to my actual question:

Doesn't the Bible say that remission of sins comes through a process that baptism is part of? I.e., doesn't the Bible say that there is a connection between baptism and the remission of sins?

is "NO, the Bible states NO such connection"
???? Really ????