Joseph Smith was DUPED by the Kinderhook Plates Pt. I

[grindael]

WHO WAS WILLIAM CLAYTON & IS HIS JOURNAL ENTRY IMPORTANT EVIDENCE?

“Beginning in early 1842, William Clayton became involved in nearly every important activity in Nauvoo, including the private concerns of the Prophet. In this respect his life reflects the Nauvoo experience better than does the life of almost anyone else--even better that many church leaders who were often away on missions. He became an intimate friend and confidant of Joseph Smith, writing letters for him, recording revelations, and performing important errands. As a scribe he kept the sacred `Book of the Law of the Lord'; was officially designated to write the history of the Nauvoo Temple; helped prepare the official history of Joseph Smith (indeed, his personal journals became the source for many entries in that history); and kept various other books and accounts as ***igned. He was a member of the temple committee and kept all the financial and other records dealing with the building of the temple, including the collection and recording of ***hes. Later, after the baptismal font was completed, it was up to Clayton to issue receipts certifying that a person was en***led to the privileges of the font (for baptisms for the dead) because he had paid ***hing. He became Nauvoo city treasurer, recorder, and clerk of the Nauvoo City Council, secretary pro tem of the Nauvoo Masonic Lodge, an officer of the Nauvoo Music ***ociation, and a member of the committee responsible for erecting the Music Hall in Nauvoo. He also became a member and clerk of the highly important Council of Fifty, as well as a member of Joseph Smith's private prayer circle. He may have functioned in more public and semi-public capacities than almost any other person in Nauvoo, save Joseph Smith. What is important here, however, is not just the Nauvoo that Clayton saw and helped build, but the Nauvoo that Clayton felt, deep inside. Only by capturing the feelings and emotions of a disciple such as Clayton can we understand the real meaning of Nauvoo in the lives of the Illinois Saints.'' From James B. Allen, ``One Man's Nauvoo: William Clayton's Experience in Mormon Illinois,'' Journal of Mormon History, Vol 6, 1979, pp. 42-3.

[Nauvoo 1] Is the Diary for 27 November 1842 through 28 April 1843 and 25 September 1844
through 31 March 1845. (Original diary in possession of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah.)

[Nauvoo 2] Is the Diary for 27 April 1843 through 24 September 1844. (Original in possession of the LDS Church.)

[Affidavit A] Is a statement made by Clayton and sworn to before a notary on February16, 1874 in Salt Lake City, Utah. Published in Andrew Jenson, The Historical Record, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1888, pp. 224-226. Although not a writing made in Nauvoo, it relates almost exclusively to the Nauvoo period and contains information not found elsewhere, which was possibly taken from Clayton's own diaries. (It was printed as Appendix C in Smith, An Intimate Chronicle, pp. 555-559).

What was Clayton doing on the day he wrote the Journal Entry on the Kinderhook Plates? Here is the entry of 1 May 1843 when Smith & Clayton first saw the Kinderhook Plates:

1 May 1843, Monday [Nauvoo 2]

May 1st. A.M AT THE TEMPLE. at 10. m J to L.W. P.M AT PRES. JOSEPHS ... I have seen 6 br*** plates which were found in Adams County ... Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found & he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharoah king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven & earth (Allen 2, p. 117)

`I have seen 6 br*** plates which were found in Adams County by some persons who were digging in a mound. They found a skeleton about 6 feet from the surface of the earth which was 9 foot high. [At this
point there is a tracing of a plate in the journal.]

The plates were on the breast of the skeleton. This diagram shows the size of the plates being drawn on the edge of one of them. They are covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharoah king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.'' (Allen 1, p.44)

Clayton preformed a marriage ceremony between Joseph Smith and Lucy Walker (Blood Atonement and the Origin of Plural Marriage p.31)

May 1st, (1843) A.M. At the Temple. At 10 married Joseph to Lucy Walker. P.M. at Prest. Joseph's; he has gone out with [Flora]Woodworth. [Affidavit], p. 225

On the 1st day of May, 1843, I officiated in the office of an Elder by marrying Lucy Walker to the Prophet Joseph Smith, at his own residence. During this period the Prophet Joseph took several other wives. Amongst the number I well remember Eliza Partridge, Emily Partridge, Sarah Ann Whitney, Helen Kimball and Flora Woodworth. These all, he acknowledged to me, were his lawful, wedded wives, according to the celestial order. His wife Emma was cognizant of the fact of some, if not all, of these being his wives, and she generally treated them very kindly. Letter by Clayton, (Heart Throbs of the West, Vol. 5 (1944): pp. 373-80 p. 78 )

I had the honor to seal one woman /Lucy Walker Smith/ to Joseph under his direction.

So, where was Clayton on that day?

***Officiator for Smith’s secret plural marriage at Smith’s residence in the morning.
***At Smith’s residence & in his company as Smith examined the Kinderhook plates and translated a portion of them.
***House sitting at Smith’s residence while Smith went on a date with Flora Woodworth (who would later become one of Smith’s wives). See, Trials of Discipleship, The Story of William Clayton, James B. Allen, (Urbana and Chicago, University of Illinois Press, 1987), also "One Man's Nauvoo: William Clayton's Experience in Mormon Illinois, Journal of Mormon History, Volume 6, 1979.

We conclude here that Clayton was intimately familiar with Smith and was with him that day, as attested to by many others. He also did a tracing of the plate which he included in his journal. His comments were not rumours, but came from the lips of Smith himself. But was this an isolated incident, a mistake when not acting as a ‘prophet’. Hardly. Here is an example from eyewitnesses of Smith’s overactive imagination at work, this time with the so called "Book Of Abraham":

Josiah Quincy, Charlotte Haven & ‘The Curiosities’

"And now come with me," said the prophet, "and I will show you the curiosities." So saying, he led the way to a lower room, where sat a venerable and respectable-looking lady. "This is my mother, gentlemen. The curiosities we shall see belong to her. They were purchased with her own money, at a cost of six thousand dollars;" and then, with deep feeling, were added the words, "And that woman was turned out upon the prairie in the dead of night by a mob." There were some pine presses fixed against the wall of the room. These receptacles Smith opened, and disclosed four human bodies, shrunken and black with age. "These are mummies," said the exhibitor. "I want you to look at that little runt of a fellow over there. He was a great man in his day. Why, that was Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt!" Some parchments inscribed with hieroglyphics were then offered us. They were preserved under gl*** and handled with great respect. "That is the handwriting of Abraham, the Father of the Faithful," said the prophet. "This is the autograph of Moses, and these lines were written by his brother Aaron. Here we have the earliest account of the creation, from which Moses composed the first book of Genesis." The parchment last referred to showed a rude drawing of a man and woman, and a serpent walking upon a pair of legs. I ventured to doubt the propriety of providing the reptile in question with this unusual means of locomotion. "Why, that's as plain as a pikestaff," was the rejoinder. "Before the Fall snakes always went about on legs, just like chickens. They were deprived of them, in punishment for their agency in the ruin of man." We were further ***ured that the prophet was the only mortal who could translate these mysterious writings, and that his power was given by direct inspiration.

[grindael]

The Curiosities (continued)

Here is an account that Charlotte Haven had with Smith’s mother, when she went to view the same Curiosities in 1843 (Notice the similarities with the Quincy account):

“ Madame Smith's residence is a log house very near her son's. She opened the door and received us cordially. She is a motherly kind of woman of about sixty years. She receives a little pittance by exhibiting The Mummies to strangers. When we asked to see them, she lit a candle and conducted us up a short, narrow stairway to a low, dark room under the roof. On one side were standing half a dozen mummies, to whom she introduced us, King Onitus and his royal household, -- one she did not know. [Perhaps this one was Necho?]

Then she took up what seemed to be a club wrapped in a dark cloth, and said "This is the leg of Pharaoh's daughter, the one that saved Moses." Repressing a smile, I looked from the mummies to the old lady. but could detect nothing but earnestness and sincerity on her countenance. Then she turned to a long table, set her candle-stick down, and opened a long roll of m****cript, saying it was "the writing of Abraham and Isaac, written in Hebrew and Sanscrit," and she read seven minutes from it as if it were English. It sounded very much like p***ages from the Old Testament -- and it might have been for anything we knew -- but she said she read it through the inspiration of her son Joseph, in whom she seemed to have perfect confidence.

Then in the same way she interpreted to us hieroglyphics from another roll. One was Mother Eve being tempted by the serpent, who -- the serpent, I mean -- was standing on the tip of his tail, with which his two legs formed a tripod, and had his head in Eve's ear. I said, "But serpents don't have legs."

They did before the fall," she ***erted with perfect confidence.

The Judge slipped a coin in her hand which she received smilingly, with a pleasant, "Come again," as we bade her goodby.”

Both Qunicy & Miss Haven give first hand accounts of these other ‘hoaxes’ that Smith perpetuated. The BOA has been proved to be NOT the actual writings of Abraham, Moses & Joseph as Smith claimed, but the writings of an Egyptian Priest made sometime in the 2nd Century B.C. But the Mormons believed Smith & as Quincy so aptly put it:

“If the blasphemous ***umptions of Smith seemed like the ravings of a lunatic, he had, at least brought them to a market where "all the people were as mad as he."

This certainly is borne out by the fairytales that Lucy Smith was regurgitating.

The Times & Seasons & Other Accounts

The Mormons lost no time in writing up the ‘great discovery’, as quoted here in the Times and Seasons:

On May 1, 1843, the Times and Seasons reprinted the following from the Quincy Wig:

“A Mr. J Roberts, from Pike county, called upon us last Monday, with a written description of a discovery which was recently made near Kinderhook, in that county... It appeared that a young man by the name of Wiley, a resident in Kinderhook, dreamed three nights in succession, that in a certain mound in the vicinity, there was treasures concealed--Impressed with the strange occurrence of dreaming the same dream three nights in succession, he came to the conclusion, to satisfy his mind by digging into the mound... Finding it quite laborous, he invited others to ***ist him. Finally, a company of ten or twelve repaired to the mound, and ***isted in digging out the shaft commenced by Wiley. After penetrating the mound about 11 feet, they came to a bed of limestone, that had apparently been subjected to the action of fire, they removed the stone, which were small and easy to handle, to the depth of two feet more, when they found SIX BR*** PLATES, secured and fastened together by two iron wires, but which were so decayed, that they readily crumbled to dust upon being handled. The plates were so completely covered with rust as almost to obliterate the characters inscribed upon them; but after undergoing a chemical process, the inscriptions were brought out plain and distinct... By whom these plates were deposited there must ever remain a secret, unless some one skilled in deciphering hieroglyphics, may be found to unravel the mystery. Some pretend to say, that Smith the Mormon leader, has the ability to read them. If he has, he will confer a great favor on the public by removing the mystery which hangs over them. We learn there was a Mormon present when the plates were found, who it is said, leaped for joy at the discovery, and remarked that it would go to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon--which it undoubtedly will…The plates above alluded to, were exhibited in this city last week, and are now, we understand, in Nauvoo, subject to the inspection of the Mormon Prophet. The public curiousity is greatly excited and if Smith can decipher the hieroglyphics on the plates, he will do more towards throwing light on the early history of this continent, than any man now living.” (Times and Seasons, Vol.4, pp. 186- 187, 1843)

The Times & Seasons was edited by none other than John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff, intimates of Smith. There is not one word from them that these were rumours or speculation. They took the find to be genuine, & the comments and partial ‘translation’ by Smith as genuine. They even made the statement: "The contents of the Plates, together with a Fac-Simile of the same, will be published in the 'Times and Seasons,' as soon as the translation is completed." This hardly implies Smith had no interest in them. The Kinderhook Plates stirred up much excitement in Nauvoo.

Even Brigham Young saw the plates and drew a picture of one in his diary, which says ‘ “May 3—1843. I had this at Joseph Smith’s house. Found near Quincy.”

So the Kinderhook plates were at Smith’s house, as were Brigham Young, William Clayton and many others. They were obviously there for more than 5 days & were returned later in June to be duplicated for the Times & Seasons Broadside. Are Smith’s statements just ‘rumour’ then, as some would have us believe? Here is an interesting account from Charlotte Haven (the same quoted above who was staying with Mormon relatives in Nauvoo), related to her by Joshua Moore (who showed the Plates to Smith):

“We hear very frequently from our Quincy friends through Mr. Joshua Moore... His last call on us was last Sa****ay and he brought with him half a dozen thin pieces of br***, apparently very old, in the form of a bell about five or six inches long. They had on them scratches that looked like symbolic characters. They were recently found, he said, in a mound a few miles below Quincy. When he showed them to Joseph, the latter said that the figures or writing on them was similar to that in which the Book of Mormon was written, and if Mr. Moore could leave them, he thought that by the help of revelation he would be able to translate them. So a sequel to that holy book may soon be expected.” (“A Girl's Letters From Nauvoo,” Overland Monthly, Dec. 1890, p. 630)

Notice here that Charlotte was shown the little br*** plates by the same man who showed them to Smith. In the journal Willard Richards kept for Joseph Smith, Richards recorded that Smith was "visited by several gentlemen concerning the plates which were dug out of a mound near quincy[;] sent by W[illia]m Smith to the office for Hebrew Bible & Lexicon."

A FARMS contributor makes this comment (where the quote above came from) about the above diary entry by Richards:

“Rather than sending for a seer stone or attempting to translate by direct revelation, Smith sent for the linguistic tools that he used in his ordinary study of Hebrew. All of this suggests that Smith took a secular approach to deciphering the plates and that he did so openly. As the characters on these plates did not convey any genuine meaning, it was impossible for him to have produced any quan***y of actual translation. Apparently he thought he had, but this would only mean that he made a mistake—something he never thought himself above.” (‘A One-sided View of Mormon Origins’ by Mark Ashurst-McGee)

What he fails to take into account is that Smith obviously sent for his lexicon to see if the characters might be genuine. This explains Smith’s wanting the characters on the Kinderhook plates to be sent out for examination by scholars before he would begin a translation. This way, there would be none able to contradict him whey he produced his bogus translation. That Smith did not use his seer stone is not an important issue since Smith himself had said before this time that he was not relying upon it anymore (He was obviously trying to distance himself from his ‘New York Reputation.’)

The Statement by Wilbur Fugate where Smith asked to have them sent out:

“I will give the reason or cause of the joke. We were reading Pratt's prophecy, that truth yet was to spring up out of the earth, and, as they were digging at Kinderhook, we concluded to make the plates, and dig down about eight feet and came to a flat rock and put them under it. They were fastened together with rust made of nitric acid, lead and rusty iron.

[grindael]

The hieroglyphics were impressions made in beeswax and filled with nitric acid and placed on the plates. We understood Jo Smith said they would make a book of 1,200 pages, but he would not agree to translate them until they were sent to the Antiquarian Society at Philadelphia, France and England. They were sent, and the answer was that there were no such hieroglyphics known, and if there ever had been they had long since p***ed away. Then Smith began his translation. W. Fugate“ (Letter, as Published in the Salt Lake Tribune, Vol. XVII, Salt Lake City, Utah, Sa****ay, May 10, 1879. No. 22. )

Modern Defense, Rejection & Evidence of the Hoax

“Six plates having the appearance of Br*** have lately been dug out of a mound by a gentleman in Pike Co. Illinois. They are small and filled with engravings in Egyptian language and contain the genealogy of one of the ancient Jaredites back to Ham the son of Noah. His bones were found in the same vase (made of Cement). Part of the bones were 15 ft. underground.” … “A large number of Citizens have seen them (the Kinderhook Plates) and compared the characters with those on the Egyptian papyrus which is now in this city.” (The Ensign, August 1981, p. 73).

At the time of the Civil War the Kinderhook plates were lost. M. Wilford Poulson, of Brigham Young University, later found one of the original plates in the Chicago Historical Society Museum. The plate which he found has been identified as no. 5 in the facsimiles printed in the History of the Church. While Professor Poulson's research led him to believe that the plate was a forgery, Welby W. Ricks, who was President of the BYU Archaeological Society, hailed the discovery as a vindication of Smith’s work:

“A recent rediscovery of one of the Kinderhook plates which was examined by Joseph Smith, Jun., reaffirms his prophetic calling and reveals the false statements made by one of the finders... The plates are now back in their original category of genuine.... Joseph Smith, Jun., stands as a true prophet and translator of ancient records by divine means and all the world is invited to investigate the truth which has sprung out of the earth not only of the Kinderhook plates, but of the Book of Mormon as well.” (The Kinderhook Plates, 1962)

Investigate indeed. But not all believed the plates were genuine:

According to Dr. W. Wyl's book, a "Mormon elder" told him that in "1858" the Apostle Orson Pratt said that he "was well convinced the plates were a fraud." (Mormon Portraits, 1886, page 211) Nevertheless, the story became an important part of Smith's History of the Church, and I believe it is still printed there. And, given how Orson Pratt was never taken very seriously by the Church, (research ‘The Seer’ for example) it is not surprising they did not listen to him.

In order for Smith to derive as much information as he did from the Kinderhook plates it would have been necessary for him to have "translated" some of the characters. The History of the Church says that he translated "a portion of them." Since Smith made a false translation of both the Kinderhook plates and the BOA, it also casts doubt on the BOM ‘translation’. James D. Bales make this excellent summary:

"What does it all add up to? Does it merely mean that one of the 'finds' which the Latter Day Saints believed supported the Book of Mormon does not support it, and that there is no real **** dealt to the prophetship of Joseph Smith? Not at all, for as Charles A. Shook well observed - in a personal letter to the author - 'Only a bogus prophet translates bogus plates.' Where we can check up on Smith as a translator of plates, he is found guilty of deception. How can we trust him with reference to his claims about the Book of Mormon? If we cannot trust him where we can check him, we cannot trust him where we cannot check his translation... Smith tried to deceive people into thinking that he had translated some of the plates. The plates had no such message as Smith claimed that they had. Smith is thus shown to be willing to deceive people into thinking that he had the power to do something that could not be done." (The Book of Mormon? 1958, pages 98-99)

But the truth was waiting to be found out, as Stanley Kimball describes in an Ensign Article:

"Since coming to public awareness in 1920, this plate has undergone a number of tests. For example, in 1953 it was examined by two engravers who made an affidavit stating that “to the best of our knowledge this Plate was engraved with a pointed instrument and not etched with acid”—a conclusion which contradicted the letters claiming the plates to be a hoax, and which therefore fueled the hopes of those who wanted the plates to be proven genuine." (Ensign Article by Stanley Kimball, cited above)

We all know that this is not true and the plates are a hoax. Why would they want them to be genuine so badly, if Smith had shrugged them off. Why devote so many pages in the History of the Church if they were of so little consequence.? No, Smith was fooled as was every other ‘seer & revelator’ (except maybe Orson Pratt) in the Mormon Church up until the acid tests. Here is Fugate’s letter, admitting to the ‘humbug’:

Mound Station, Ill.
June 30, 1879

"Mr. Cobb:

"I received your letter in regard to those plates, and will say in answer that they are a HUMBUG, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitton and myself. Whitton is dead. I do not know whether Wiley is or not. None of the nine persons who signed the certificate knew the secret, except, Wiley and I.

"We read in Pratt's prophecy that 'Truth is yet to spring out of the earth.' We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke. We soon made our plans and executed them, Bridge Whitton cut them out of some pieces of copper; Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead , and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with the rust.

"Our plans worked admirably. A certain Sunday was appointed for the digging. The night before, Wiley went to the Mound where he had previously dug to the depth of about eight feet, there being a flat rock that sounded hollow beneath, and put them under it. On the following morning quite a number of citizens were there to ***ist in the search, there being two Mormon elders present (Marsh and Sharp). The rock was soon removed but some time elapsed before the plates were discovered. I finally picked them up and exclaimed, 'A piece of pot metal!' Fayette Grubb snatched them from me and struck them against the rock and they fell to pieces. Dr. Harris examined them and said they had hieroglyphics on them. He took acid and removed the rust and they were soon out on exhibition.

"Under this rock (which) was dome-like in appearance (and) about three feet in diameter, there were a few bones In the last stage of decomposition, also a few pieces of pottery and charcoal. There was no skeleton found. Sharp, the Mormon Elder, leaped and shouted for joy and said, Satan had appeared to him and told him not to go (to the diggings), it was a hoax of Fugate and Wiley's, but at a later hour the Lord appeared and told him to go, the treasure was there.

"The Mormons wanted to take the plates to Joe Smith, but we refused to let them go. Some time afterward a man ***uming the name of Savage, of Quincy, borrowed the plates of Wiley to show to his literary friends there, and took them to Joe Smith. The same identical plates were returned to Wiley, who gave them to Professor McDowell, of St. Louis, for his Museum.

"W. Fugate

STATE OF ILLINOIS
BROWN COUNTY. ss

"W. Fugate, being first duly sworn, deposes and says that the above, letter, containing an account of the plates found near Kinderhook, is true and correct, to the best of his recollection. "W. Fugate

"Subscribed and sworn to before me this 30th day of June, 1879. "Jay Brown, J. P." (The Kinderhook Plates, by Welby W. Ricks, reprinted from the Improvement Era, Sept.1962)

Even after this came out B.H. Roberts still REFUSED TO BELIEVE IT! Here he is trying to discredit Fugate & his hoax letter:

"Of this presentation of the matter it is only necessary to say that it is a little singular that Mr. Fugate alone out of the three said to be in collusion in perpetrating the fraud should disclose it, and that he should wait from 1843 to 1879--a period of thirty-six years-before doing so, when he and those said to be ***ociated with him had such an excellent opportunity to expose the vain pretensions of the Prophet--if Fugate's tale be true--during his lifetime...The fact that Fugate's story was not told until thirty-six years after the event, and that he alone of all those who were connected with the event gives that version of it, is rather strong evidence that his story is the hoax, not the discovery of the plates, nor the engravings upon them." (The History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 379, footnote)

[grindael]

Modern Defense...Evidence of Hoax (continued)

Perhaps Roberts had never read the letter from W. P. Harris dated from 1855 (or chose not to believe it). W. P. Harris was one of the nine witnesses to the plates, and he also made a separate statement telling how cleaned them, etc. (see History of the Church, Vol.5, pp.374-377). In 1855 (24 years before Fugate's affidavit) Harris wrote a letter in which he stated that the plates were not genuine and that Bridge Whitten already acknowledged his part in the hoax:

April 25, 1855

Mr. Flagg,

Dear Sir: Yours of the 4th of April came to hand on the 23rd. This thing is stale with me, although I have feelings and respect for the truth.

Some years since, I was present with a number at or near Kinderhook, and helped to dig at the time the plates were found that I think you allude to. Robert Wiley, then a merchant of that place, said that he had had a number of strange dreams (as I have learned) that there was something in the mounds near Kinderhook. If I recollect right, he began to dig on Sa****ay, and on Sunday the discovery was made. I was present with quite a crowd. The plates were found in the pit by Mr. Fayette Grubb. I washed and cleaned the plates and subsequently made an honest affidavit to the same.

But since that time, Bridge Whitten said to me that he cut and prepared the plates and he (B. Whitten) and R. Wiley engraved them themselves, and that there was nitric acid put upon them the night before that they were found to rust the iron ring and band. And that they were carried to the mound, rubbed in the dirt and carefully dropped into the pit where they were found.

'Wilbourn Fugit appeared to be the chief, with R. Wiley and B. Whitten. Fugit lives at Kinderhook and B. Whitten at Alton, Illinois, to both of which you can refer.

'Subsequently to my receiving your letter, I have seen Dr. P. M. Parker, M. D., that graduated at St. Louis, Mo., last winter. Dr. Parker says that R. Wiley graduated at the same place since the finding of the plates at the same school, and that Professor McDowell on Surgery has the plates at his office, and he (Dr. Parker) saw them there last winter.

'If it would be any satisfaction you will write to Dr. P. M. Parker, to Wilbourn Fugit and Bridge Whitten. Esq. W. Murray said that he had wrote you on the subject. What Esq. Murray says you may rely upon.

'I believe that I have stated all as far as I know that would be any satisfaction to you, so with much esteem I remain, Fraternally Yours, W. P. Harris.

'Mr. W. C. Flagg,

'P. S. Mr. Fugit, Mr. Whitten and I are all of us belonging to one order that ought to bear witness to the truth. If anything should transpire that you would wish to hear from me again (an old man rising of sixty) please write me and I will cheerfully give you all the information that I can. It is a late hour and I have worked hard all day in my garden and my health is very poor. So I hope you will excuse. Yours Respectfully, W. P. H'" (Letter from the Journal of the Illinois State Historical Society, 1912, Vol.5, No.2, pp.271-273, as quoted in The Book of Mormon?, by James D. Bales, pp 95-96)

Thus we see that Mr. Fugate was not the only one who exposed the hoax. At least 24 years before Fugate made his affidavit one of the witnesses had stated that it was a hoax.

Conclusions

The Mormon point of view on the Kinderhook plates can be summed up by a private conversation in which Neal Maxwell stated:

“He said that if Joseph Smith had felt the Kinderhook Plates were indeed important, worthy of translation and from God, "he would have moved on them," but he did not. Maxwell said Smith's "benign neglect" thus verified that the Kinderhook Plates were not important. Maxwell compared and contrasted the Prophet Joseph's "benign neglect" toward the Kinderhook Plates with what he characterized as Smith's eagerness and quickness in dealing with the Book of Abraham. “

But there was also a ‘Book of Joseph’ that Smith claimed was buried with the Chandler mummies, which he promised to also ‘translate’ but never got around to. This shows Maxwell’s argument of ‘benign neglect’ to be only a smokescreen to hide the fact that Smith was taken in by the hoax. Why did Smith not translate that ‘Book of Joseph’ then? Just as with the Kinderhook Plates we will never know. But just because he put the projects aside for a time does not mean he did not mean to get to them. As late as 1844, the Warsaw Signal reported that Smith was "busy in translating them: The new work... will be nothing more nor less than a sequel to The Book of Mormon;..." (Warsaw Signal May 22, 1844)

In one article at LDS.ORG, Stanley Kimball says the preceding statement by the Warsaw Signal is false, because Smith did not have the plates at this time. But what he conveniently forgets is Smith had pictures with a clear duplication of all the characters on the plates, so he did not need the originals. This is also a reason why Smith did not need to purchase them right away, as he did with the BOA. One other thought as to why Fugate took so long to reveal the hoax was that on November 15, 1843 he wrote a letter to one J. J. Harding suggesting that he was interested in selling the plates to “the National Ins***ute”. If the plates were mistaken as genuine, then Fugate would have been able to ‘fool the prophet’ and make some money off the hoax as well.

As the Tanners so aptly put it:

“Whether or not the writer of the article in the Quincy Whig knew the plates had been forged, it is obvious that Joseph Smith fell for the bait, hook, line, and sinker. Since Joseph Smith did not know the difference between ancient and modern br*** plates, as the evidence clearly shows, and was oblivious to the fact that the hieroglyphics were forged, we cannot have any confidence in his work. While the Mormon leaders are supposed to have special powers of discernment, Joseph Smith certainly did not demonstrate a capability to discern when he was being tricked. Even the present leader of the church, the prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, was taken in by Mark Hofmann's forgeries and actually bought some of these documents for the church! In one instance he paid Hofmann $15,000 for a forged letter which was purportedly written by the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith”. (For a complete treatment of the Kinderhook affair see our book, Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? pages 111-115)

[James Banta]

Haven't you heard yet? The History of the church is made up and it worthless as a history.. Nothing in it has ANY anything to do with real events.. Why Smith would even bother keeping records if the happenings of His activities even his sermons were a waste of time.. Mormonism has no history and no authority at all to call themselves the restored Church of Jesus Christ.. This same carelessness for the history of church is also seen in the m***ive changes that have been made to the Standard works. Unlike the over 3,000 changes in the BofM there are over 65,000 changes between the Book of Commandments and Doctrine and Covenants. One of which seems very significant.. This revelation was printed in the Book of Commandments as chapter 4. Verse 2 reads as follows: "And now, behold, this shall you say to him: -I the Lord am God, and I have commanded him that he should stand as a witness of these things, nevertheless I have caused him that he should enter into a covenant with me, that he should not show then except I command him. and he has no power over them except I grant it unto him; and he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift." well after the BofM was completed things changed.. D&C 5:4 says "And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished" Tell me how this isn't a MAJOR change? All the sudden Smith had many more gifts when God had first said that no other gifts would be given.. Did God change His mind or did Smith just decided he liked being a prophet and wanted the power and adoration that he saw the office gave him.. It is much more likely that Smith changed his mind than God changed. After all God told us that: Mal 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Too bad mormonism has nothing of worth to offer to the world that hasn't been modified and changed so many thousands of times that it is no longer contains he same message as it did originally.. This above all that the Bible teaches are the "doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” IHS jim

[Richard]

Viewers, guest, and lurkers and the truth.

Kinderhook Plates
A new Reprint is Stanley B. Kimball's "Kinderhook Plates...Appear to Be a Nineteenth-Century Hoax," from the August, 1982 Ensign. This LDS Historian reports on the historical background of these metal plates, discovered in Illinois in 1843, and summarizes the documentary and technical evidence which leads to the conclusion that the plates were probably a planted hoax. It is interesting that Joseph Smith aparently did not fall for the scheme, even though some of his ***ociates may have done so.



Quote from urloony:

-Where is the translation made of the plates?

-If this was designed to be a hoax why did the perpetrators of the hoax not reveal their plot until 1879, long after Joseph Smith had died and with little fanfare?

[Mark Beesley]

grindael,

wouldn't it be easier to just post a link to UTLM? And haven't you read the forum rules: "No filling up the board with large amounts of pasted material."

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Richard

Viewers, guest, and lurkers and the truth.

Kinderhook Plates
A new Reprint is Stanley B. Kimball's "Kinderhook Plates...Appear to Be a Nineteenth-Century Hoax," from the August, 1982 Ensign. This LDS Historian reports on the historical background of these metal plates, discovered in Illinois in 1843, and summarizes the documentary and technical evidence which leads to the conclusion that the plates were probably a planted hoax. It is interesting that Joseph Smith aparently did not fall for the scheme, even though some of his ***ociates may have done so.



Quote from urloony:

-Where is the translation made of the plates?

-If this was designed to be a hoax why did the perpetrators of the hoax not reveal their plot until 1879, long after Joseph Smith had died and with little fanfare?

Why was it that Smith wanted the plates authenticated by someone else? Couldn't he as a prophet just have turn to the hoaxers and said "why are you bringing me fraudulent plates.." It's because he wasn't sure and didn't want to slam the door to being able to "translate" them if they proved to be authentic... That proves he was as much a fraud in my eyes as if he had attempted to translate them.. IHS jim

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Why was it that Smith wanted the plates authenticated by someone else? Couldn't he as a prophet just have turn to them hoaxers and said "why are you bringing me fraudulent plates.." It's because he wasn't sure and didn't want to slam the door to being able to "translate" them if they proved to be authehtic... That proves he was as much a fraud in my eyes as if he had attempted to translate them.. IHS jim

You belong to the same group of people that were spoken about when the 116 pages of the BoM m****cript were lost and JS was commanded to NOT retranslate them. There are people like you, James, that will **** JS if he DOES translate or if he DOESN'T translate, which only says more about you and your ilk that are so quick to judge JS than it does about anything else.

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

You belong to the same group of people that were spoken about when the 116 pages of the BoM m****cript were lost and JS was commanded to NOT retranslate them. There are people like you, James, that will **** JS if he DOES translate or if he DOESN'T translate, which only says more about you and your ilk that are so quick to judge JS than it does about anything else.

I can't believe that anyone would fall for that con man's lie.

What a joke, and it just proves that Smith was nothing more than a con man with lie on top of lie.

It was a smart move on the wife to hide those papers to expose Smith for the liar he was, but he talked his way out of it and is still beguiling people with that ridiculous lie.

You have been duped and have bought into the lie and contrary to what you think you have, you have nothing of Christianity whatsoever.

Andy

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Richard

Quote from urloony:

-Where is the translation made of the plates?

-If this was designed to be a hoax why did the perpetrators of the hoax not reveal their plot until 1879, long after Joseph Smith had died and with little fanfare?

Richard that is a straw man argument. Nobody claims a complete translation of the plates. Per the H of C quote Joseph translated a portion of them and gave a few details about the contents of the plates. Which he obviously got wrong.

[urloony]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Richard that is a straw man argument. Nobody claims a complete translation of the plates. Per the H of C quote Joseph translated a portion of them and gave a few details about the contents of the plates. Which he obviously got wrong.

Billy, as usual you are missing the bigger picture. We are all aware a full translation was never made, where's the partial translation? This was a monumental event apparently why was no information ever released other than speculation by members of the church? In the end we have an isolated journal entry that has never been substantiated.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by urloony

Billy, as usual you are missing the bigger picture. Where is the partial translation of the plates then. We are all aware a full translation was never made, where's the partial. In the end we have an isolated journal entry that has never been substantiated.

Joseph Smith jr translations.
Facts are Joseph Smith jr got caught and you guys grasp at straws. Clear this all up by answering this, is your Church history worth a warm spit or not?

[Billyray]

The partial translation summary was reported in the H of C quote. This has already been quoted multiple times before.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

You belong to the same group of people that were spoken about when the 116 pages of the BoM m****cript were lost and JS was commanded to NOT retranslate them. There are people like you, James, that will **** JS if he DOES translate or if he DOESN'T translate, which only says more about you and your ilk that are so quick to judge JS than it does about anything else.

SMITH DIDN'T HAVE TO TRANSLATE THE KINDERHOOK PLATES AT ALL. All he had to do was to call them a fraud from day one.. That is what they were and if Smith was indeed a seer he should ben able to see that right away and have said so.. It would appear that he didn't have the confidence in his gifts to do that.. That is called faithlessness..

I am one that thinks the lost pages of the book of Lehi should have been retranslated.. Then we could have seen the same words come out of the stone which would have given the BofM some sort of a evidence other than testimony that it was true.. Why was God so against that? IHS jim

[Richard]

I can't believe that anyone would fall for that con man's lie.

Or fall for some man made Christian Creeds and approved by a Sun Worshipper.

What a joke, and it just proves that Smith was nothing more than a con man with lie on top of lie.

Well at least there are a few of us who never fell for the lie that God is invisible, or the earth was created in six day, or something can be made from absolutely nothing. Nice lie, and some fell for it hook line and sinker.



[QUOTE]

It was a smart move on the wife to hide those papers to expose Smith for the liar he was, but he talked his way out of it and is still beguiling people with that ridiculous lie.

What would be the reason to be deceptive like the wife was obviously being, was she afraid of the truth or was she more likely just being evil?

You have been duped and have bought into the lie and contrary to what you think you have, you have nothing of Christianity whatsoever.

Andy

Sorry to say, but those who were duped believe that God is dead and speaks no more.

Janet.

[Richard]

SMITH DIDN'T HAVE TO TRANSLATE THE KINDERHOOK PLATES AT ALL. All he had to do was to call them a fraud from day one.. That is what they were and if Smith was indeed a seer he should ben able to see that right away and have said so.. It would appear that he didn't have the confidence in his gifts to do that.. That is called faithlessness..

Since we only have witnesses, what evidence can you provide that JS may not have had his doubts, it's obvious he did not pursue translating, pretty smart move I would say.

I am one that thinks the lost pages of the book of Lehi should have been retranslated.. Then we could have seen the same words come out of the stone which would have given the BofM some sort of a evidence other than testimony that it was true.. Why was God so against that? IHS jim

I wish we had the translation also, but since we have a corrupt person who sought to destroy JS, we have a lost book.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Richard that is a straw man argument. Nobody claims a complete translation of the plates. Per the H of C quote Joseph translated a portion of them and gave a few details about the contents of the plates. Which he obviously got wrong.

“I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.” (Then followed a reprint of material from the Times and Seasons article.)

Although this account appears to be the writing of Joseph Smith, it is actually an excerpt from a journal of William Clayton. It has been well known that the serialized “History of Joseph Smith” consists largely of items from other persons’ personal journals and other sources, collected during Joseph Smith’s lifetime and continued after the Saints were in Utah, then edited and pieced together to form a history of the Prophet’s life “in his own words.” It was not uncommon in the nineteenth century for biographers to put the narrative in the first person when compiling a biographical work, even though the subject of the biography did not actually say or write all the words attributed to him; thus the narrative would represent a faithful report of what others felt would be helpful to print. The Clayton journal excerpt was one item used in this way. For example, the words “I have translated a portion” originally read “President J. has translated a portion. …” 3

Where the ideas written by William Clayton originated is unknown. However, as will be pointed out later, speculation about the plates and their possible content was apparently quite unrestrained in Nauvoo when the plates first appeared. In any case, this altered version of the extract from William Clayton’s journal was reprinted in the Millennial Star of 15 January 1859, and, unfortunately, was finally carried over into official Church history when the “History of Joseph Smith” was edited into book form as the History of the Church in 1909.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...004d82620aRCRD

[Richard]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Joseph Smith jr translations.
Facts are Joseph Smith jr got caught and you guys grasp at straws. Clear this all up by answering this, is your Church history worth a warm spit or not?

Joseph Smith did not make the hoped-for translation. In fact, no evidence exists that he manifested any further interest in the plates after early examination of them, although some members of the Church hoped that they would prove to be significant. But the plates never did.

[urloony]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The partial translation summary was reported in the H of C quote. This has already been quoted multiple times before.

No. What has been printed is a summery of the alleged partial translation at best. A partial translation was never published.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by urloony

No. What has been printed is a summery of the alleged partial translation at best. A partial translation was never published.

Correct. Notice my prior post that states this fact that almost mirrors your exact first statement above. And as the quote below states, Joseph translated a portion of them and then proceeds to give a small summary of what was contained within the plates. Therefore if this was true then he was duped, which of course is what the evidence from your own records points to.

Originally Posted by Billyray

The partial translation summary was reported in the H of C quote. This has already been quoted multiple times before.

"I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.” LDS quote

[urloony]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Correct. Notice my prior post that states this fact that almost mirrors your exact first statement above. And as the quote states, Joseph translated a portion of them and then proceeds to give a small summary of what was contained within the plates. Therefore if this was true then he was duped, which of course is what the evidence from your own records points to.



"I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.”

You of all people Billy should know that in order to establish "proof" you need multiple sources of evidence. The translation of the KHP has one only one potential source of evidence that has never been corroborated by any other sources. The mountain of evidence that has previously been posted in my thread as well as this one all demonstrate that the plates were never translated. This is a dead issue.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by urloony

You of all people Billy should know that in order to establish "proof" you need multiple sources of evidence. The translation of the KHP has one only one potential source of evidence that has never been corroborated by any other sources. The mountain of evidence that has previously been posted in my thread as well as this one all demonstrate that the plates were never translated. This is a dead issue.

Actually there is more than one, the William Clayton quote in the H of the C and the Parley Pratt quote that mirrors Clayton's quote.

[James Banta]

[Richard;54849]Or fall for some man made Christian Creeds and approved by a Sun Worshipper.

Janet.

Totally inappropriate for a pagan to find God and make himself subject to Jesus now it's it.. A person had to be born and raised a Christian in order to see God's truth when it is presented to his, right? Where do you get this stuff Janet Ahhh I mean Richard.. IHS jim

[urloony]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Actually there is more than one, the William Clayton quote in the H of the C and the Parley Pratt quote that mirrors Clayton's quote.

Now you are starting to tell fibs Billy. The Clayton Journal is the only source that ever mentions anything about a partial translation. Let's stick to the facts.