Joseph Smith was DUPED by the Kinderhook Plates Pt. I

[Phoenix]

Thanks for the comments. I will try to respond to at least some of them when have more time.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Thanks for the comments. I will try to respond to at least some of them when have more time.

You haven't had time in a week? Sorry that your life is so consumed with earthly issues.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

It would seem that playing on the computer is not so near the top of his "To do" list as it is with others....

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

It would seem that playing on the computer is not so near the top of his "To do" list as it is with others....

If I had to defend Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind, I'd have many an excuse too.

[Phoenix]

Thanks for your patience. I have a few minutes now to respond.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im not a con man, so Im not really a guy who would know of 100 things the guys could have done differently next time

That's OK.

But they might actually have been able to pull this off had the cover-story lasted and had Joe Smith lived and had the free time, and a need for a bit more "new truth" to help in his plans.

So it was just bad luck that Fugate and his co-hoaxers didn't get away with it? Could it also be because Smith was clever enough to avoid being caught in their trap, which they realized and therefore delayed confessing their plan to trick him?

There were a few problems with how this hoax was created.
1st - any time more than one person is in on the hoax you have a risk that "Someone will talk" and the cover story will fall apart.

True, although if the Book of Mormon itself is a conspired hoax, the hoaxers never "talked" and blew the cover story.

2nd- it would have been a LOT more tricky for Smith to walk away from the New Plates had he been the one there to witness the New Plates being found.

I suppose you are right about that.

3rd - The best way to fool a con-artist is to convince the con-artist that he is the one pulling the hoax on people.
Im not sure how to go about doing this, but I believe that if you could somehow get Smith to believe he was pulling a fast-one with the New Plates, that this would have taken away Smith's hesitation about coming out with his own fake "stone-in-the-hat" Translation.

That is an interesting hypothesis.

4th - From what i understand, Smith's life ended before smith had the free time with nothing else going on, where he could sit back and come up with a reason to make use of the New Plates...
So it might just be a case of bad timing as to really why this hoax failed.

Perhaps. So they may have just had bad luck, as we noted earlier.

Thanks for setting a good example of non-hostility in your posts, by the way.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You haven't had time in a week? Sorry that your life is so consumed with earthly issues.. IHS jim

Trying to scrounge the back ***hing he owes in order to get in the temple and firm up his godhood application?

[alanmolstad]

phonex.....im on the road
i cant post much on my phone.
i just wanted to say "hi" and let you know i will respond when i return home to my computer.


if i have wifi later i wwill send you short posts on my answeres to your questions

[alanmolstad]

phonex:

it was bad luck the scam failed....but i dont think they ever got smith to believe the plates were real..

the most they might hope for would be that smith would recognixe the plates were fake but still something he might try to use to support his own fake mormon plates....

but things did not work out....smith never seemed to have free time to develop a plan to make use of the plates...and smith had to know that the guys who made the plates were still alive and must have had their own plans....

so smith played it cool....

[alanmolstad]

phonex:

as for the fact that smith's own scam never fell apart.....it is to smiths credit that he did run his scam very much like a textbook example of how to do it.....

if smith was alone in the creation of the golden plates then it is no shock he was able to maintain the different cover stories.....

it is always best to have the fewest number in on the con as you can

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

phonex:it was bad luck the scam failed....but i dont think they ever got smith to believe the plates were real..
the most they might hope for would be that smith would recognixe the plates were fake but still something he might try to use to support his own fake mormon plates....
but things did not work out....smith never seemed to have free time to develop a plan to make use of the plates...and smith had to know that the guys who made the plates were still alive and must have had their own plans....
so smith played it cool....

Thanks. The part I underlined is the part I agree with the most.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=TrueBlue?;54906]

Originally Posted by Richard

Or fall for some man made Christian Creeds and approved by a Sun Worshipper.



Well at least there are a few of us who never fell for the lie that God is invisible, or the earth was created in six day, or something can be made from absolutely nothing. Nice lie, and some fell for it hook line and sinker.





Kinda let the cat out of the bag Richard/Janet. What's going on here?

While it is true that God is and did everything the Bible teaches about Him, the LDS love to call the word of God lies.. Does the Bible say that God created the world in 6 days?

Gen 1:31-2:1
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

We can believe God in this or call Him a liar. But what is a day? Is God restrained to a 24 hour slot of time to do His work? Why not see all his works done is just one day?

Gen 2:4
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens

Was God so silly as to change His mind about the time He took to create the universe just a few sentences after He revealed it was a 6 day creation? No, and neither is it commanded that each of the days of creation were 24 hour days.. They were eras, time periods..

The Bible also tells us that God made all things.. That includes the very elements of which all other things are made..

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If God created ALL things just what things existed before He formed the earth and the heavens? Nothing.. And that is what God CREATED the earth and the heavens from.. NOTHING.. He spoke them into existence by the power of His word.. He commanded "let there be light", and there was light!

Now is God invisible? Unable to be seen? YES Only in Jesus can we see the image of God..

Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

Did some sun worshiper come up with these points of doctrine or were they given to us as doctrine by God the Holy Spirit through His Apostles? Is it better to believe the wild eyed statements of a man that was convicted of fraud in these matters or trust God through His word? To quote a real prophet "As for me and my house we will trust the Lord".. You can deny these points but in so doing you don't deny a false teaching but instead you deny the word of God. You call God a liar, that sounds like a very dangerous practice to me.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Trying to scrounge the back ***hing he owes in order to get in the temple and firm up his godhood application?

Was that intended to be a personal insult/attack?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by James Banta

the LDS love to call the word of God lies..

They do? Do you have quotes of them saying they love to call the word of God lies? Do you even have quotes of them calling the word of God lies, even if you can't find a quote of them saying they love to do it?

Or do you have nothing, and that was just a mean, insulting lie?
If it's true that that what you said is a lie, should we jump to the conclusion that you love telling that lie, and that anti-Mormons in general love telling lies about the Mormons?

[James Banta]

[Phoenix;153298]They do? Do you have quotes of them saying they love to call the word of God lies? Do you even have quotes of them calling the word of God lies, even if you can't find a quote of them saying they love to do it?

I don't have to look to deep to find those references.. I can go right to the AofF and see that the LDS don't trust God to keep His word pure.. From the very beginning it was true only as far as it is translated correctly.. There there are others in the seats of the GAs that have attacked the Bible.

There will be, there can be, no absolutely reliable translation of these or other scriptures unless it be effected through the gift of translation, as one of the endowments of the Holy Ghost... Let the Bible then be read reverently and with prayerful care, the reader ever seeking the light of the Spirit that he may discern between truth and the errors of men" (Talmage, AofF, p. 237).

There is not one principle pertaining to the salvation of men that is so clearly stated in the Bible, as it has come down to us, that men do not stumble over — not one thing. There is not one principle they can be united on that has been so clearly stated that they do not find their interpretations of it conflicting" (Joseph Feilding Smith, DofS, Vol. I, p. 278).

Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (Joseph Smith TofPJS, p. 327)

If it be admitted that the apostles and evangelists did write the books of the New Testament, that does not prove of itself that they were divinely inspired at the time they wrote.... Add all this imperfection to the uncertainty of the translation, and who, in his right mind could for one moment suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original? (Orson Pratt, Divine Authority of the Book of Mormon, pp. 45, 47)

Do you need more than that?

Or do you have nothing, and that was just a mean, insulting lie?

I don't like being called a liar anymore than you like seeing your church called Bible haters.. The difference is I have evidence that the LDS church has little respect for the Bible and do all they can do to discredit it.. To me and to any honest thinking Christian this is solid PROOF that the LDS church hates the Bible..

If it's true that that what you said is a lie, should we jump to the conclusion that you love telling that lie, and that anti-Mormons in general love telling lies about the Mormons?

You so easily jump to the conclusion that everything I say is a lie.. Sad thing is when you are shown where what I say here is referenced you still deny it and still call me a liar.. I can't say I have not name called in the past but that is past for me.. I refereed to the whole church as being Bible hating not one specific person. I will not degrade my posts again with personal attacks. You have now seem some of the evidence that I believe holds up my accusation against mormonism that is it a Bible hating church.. All the lip service to the contrary won't do unless your central leadership were to come out and tell the world that the words spoken against the Bible were wrong and such will never again be allowed coming from any GA or across the pulpit where any GA presides over an official meeting of the church.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

I Dont know how to do that thing where you break someone's post up into sections...So my words will be in BOLD type

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Thanks for your patience. I have a few minutes now to respond.

That's OK.

How come whenever I have the time to hang out on this forum Im the only one here, and no one puts up any new comments all day, BUT the moment I have to work on the road away from any computer or wifi I return and see about 100 new posts?


So it was just bad luck that Fugate and his co-hoaxers didn't get away with it?
Well kinda.
But they could have done it different and had a better chance of getting Joe Smith to bite on their hook.






Could it also be because Smith was clever enough to avoid being caught in their trap, which they realized and therefore delayed confessing their plan to trick him?
I dont think ever thought the plates were any more real that the ones he faked.
If its one thing a good Con Man can spot its another con Man pulling a scam. So I dont think Smith ever felt the plates were real.

But Smith also knew that the makers mof the plates likely had plans, ...secret plans for them, and so Smith had to play it cool untill he knew whatever he said about the plates could not be countered.



True, although if the Book of Mormon itself is a conspired hoax, the hoaxers never "talked" and blew the cover story.

The Golden Plates and the Book of Mormon are a hoax, but they told a story that a lot of people wanted to believe so much that their errors and problems with them were overlooked.

One of the key things when pulling a magic trick is to get the people watching the trick to want the magic to be real....then misdirect their attention...



I suppose you are right about that.


That is an interesting hypothesis.


Perhaps. So they may have just had bad luck, as we noted earlier.

Thanks for setting a good example of non-hostility in your posts, by the way.

We have something like the Mormon Plates, (and the other ones we are talking about here) here near where I live.
It's called the "Kensington Rune Stone"

For a time it was considered a real find...something that would change the history books.
But as time went on and science learned a bit more about their history the hype around them had went away....
Now they are just seen for what they are.....a con.

But they tell a nice story and so even to this day we find websites that spring up and add their little extra to the hype that still surrounds them.

I grew up in the town where they are on display.
They are fun.......nothing more.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Thanks. The part I underlined is the part I agree with the most.

Im finally back from working on the road, so if you have any things you want me to address?....or perhaps a question or two for me?....

I got the free time and I would really enjoy hearing from you on any issues you have on your mind.