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Thread: On the Soul

  1. #1
    Columcille
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    Default On the Soul

    There seems to be several possibilities on which to choose from in regards to what call the existence of the soul. Some might suggest that there is no such thing, that perhaps what we call the intellect is tied strictly to our chemical composition. While there may be evidences in brain surgery to suggest how we respond to stimulation, there is something even greater and more complex... a miracle as it were... that our souls are much greater than just a chemical composition and process. The miracle of life has never been able to be reproduce from inanimate objects. But our capacity as man is much greater than any other animal when we become adults, and this capacity is to reason and with this reason to create complex objects for use, and to also give in-depth meaning to our universe and communicate these ideas. A whale may be more intelligent to man, but I do not think they are able to think up even the error that matter is of four substance air, wind, water, and fire much less that there are numerous atoms that make up our periodic table of elements.

    So establishing ourselves from amongst the other animals, the greatest on our planet, I wish to jump to a Christian perception. An ****ogy that seems useful is the Temple which is composited of the outer court, inner court, and Holy of Holies; hence is drawn the physical body, the soul, and then the spirit. Some may interchange spirit with soul and combine them, which is alright in my book, so long as what I am suggesting by the Holy of Holies to be that place where either God resides in the center or that center is filled with one self or another spiritual deity. Hence, if we allude to even other cultures that understand such a thing as demon possession, that center is filled with something other than the person we know.

    I am sure there is much in way of divergent ideas on the soul. For some, the soul is eternal that has no beginning nor end. At any rate, I just thought an ontological think-speak on the subject would be refreshing. I suggest its importance is far reaching. Depending on how one views the existence of the soul will change the importance of eternal consequence in recognizing a universal code of ethics and morality. As such it also ties to our ideas of the afterlife and what we are trying to attain, paradise, Nirvana, heaven, (perhaps even hell, if Milton's "Paradise Lost" comes to mind about it better to reign in hell than serve in heaven). So there is relevance to the subject.

  2. #2
    Ichigo
    Guest

    Talking The Soul/Spirit

    Greetings:
    This subject is as fascinating as it is complex. I take the position known as conditional unity, which is kind of a cross between a strict naturalist point of view (our "spirit" dies when we do) and strict dualism (the physical body and soul (or mind) exist in separate realities).
    I believe that at death, the unnatural occurence of our soul/spirit separating from our physical bodies into heaven (or hell, depending whether or not you've accepted Christ) into God's presence. As this is our unnatural state, our soul/spirit longs to be back in a physical form, but is temporarily overshadowed by the fact that we are in His presence. In closing, separation from the physical body is only a temporary state. We should caution ourselves not to put to much emphaisis on either the physical body or the soul/spirit that is our breath of life. Anyway, that's my two cents on the issue. God bless!
    In Christ,
    Ichigo(Matt)

  3. #3
    Columcille
    Guest

    Default Dualism, Idealism, Materialism defined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichigo View Post
    Greetings:
    This subject is as fascinating as it is complex. I take the position known as conditional unity, which is kind of a cross between a strict naturalist point of view (our "spirit" dies when we do) and strict dualism (the physical body and soul (or mind) exist in separate realities).
    I believe that at death, the unnatural occurence of our soul/spirit separating from our physical bodies into heaven (or hell, depending whether or not you've accepted Christ) into God's presence. As this is our unnatural state, our soul/spirit longs to be back in a physical form, but is temporarily overshadowed by the fact that we are in His presence. In closing, separation from the physical body is only a temporary state. We should caution ourselves not to put to much emphaisis on either the physical body or the soul/spirit that is our breath of life. Anyway, that's my two cents on the issue. God bless!
    In Christ,
    Ichigo(Matt)
    It seems the board has quieted down a bit, so it seems an appropriate time to revisit this subject. You've listed three points of views. I hope to lay down the definition for future reference and to help people looking in a quick overview.

    Here is the following in the Oxford English Dictionary regarding
    Dualism:
    3. A theory or system of thought which recognizes two independent principles. spec. a. Philos. The doctrine that mind and matter exist as distinct en***ies; opposed to idealism and materialism. b. The doctrine that there are two independent principles, one good and the other evil. c. Theol. The doctrine, attributed by his opponents to Nestorius, that Christ consisted of two personalities.

    Since the dictionary has listed two other positions, here they are:

    Idealism
    1. Philos. Any system of thought or philosophy in which the object of external perception is held to consist, either in itself, or as perceived, of ideas (in various senses of the word: see idea n.).
    Subjective Idealism is the opinion that the object of external perception consists, whether in itself or as known to us, in ideas of the perceiving mind; Critical or Transcendental Idealism, the opinion (of Kant) that it, together with the whole contents of our experience, consists, as known to us, but not necessarily in itself, of such ideas; Objective Idealism, the opinion (of Schelling) that while, as known to us, it consists of such ideas, it consists also, as it is in itself, of ideas identical with these; Absolute Idealism, (a) the opinion (of Hegel) that it consists, not only as known to us, but in itself, of ideas, not however ours, but those of the universal mind; (b) also applied more generally to other forms of idealism which do not suppose an independent reality underlying our ideas of external objects.

    Materialism:

    1. Philos. The opinion that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications; also, in a more limited sense, the opinion that the phenomena of consciousness and will are wholly due to the operation of material agencies. Often applied by opponents to views that are considered logically to lead to these conclusions, or to involve the attribution to material causes of effects that should be referred to spiritual causes.


    Conditionalism:
    The doctrine of conditional survival after death. Hence Con"ditionalist, one who holds such doctrine (also attrib.).
    1895 Salmond Chr. Doctr. Immort. vi. ii. 615 The literalists of the various forms of Annihilationism or Conditionalism. Ibid. 622 The Conditionalist doctrine involves conceptions both of man's nature and of Christ's work which are inadequate and unreasonable. 1910 Hastings Encycl. Relig. & Ethics III. 822/2 In its modern form Conditionalism may be said to be contained in two propositions: (1) that the endless life of the righteous is not the result of any natural immortality inherent, but is the gift of God; (2) that the punishment of the wicked, in the world to come, will not be of endless duration, since their life must finally be extinguished. Ibid. 823/2 Spinoza+was a Conditionalist in the sense that his ‘immortality’ is not enjoyed by any but the wise man. Ibid. 824/1 The conditionalist position (forcibly stated by Locke in a p***age already quoted). 1918 J. H. Leckie World to Come 134 He affirms that ***us declared to his soldiers that those who died in battle secured for their souls a future life, while those who perished by natural decay or sickness p***ed utterly out of existence—which reads very like an excellent military version of Conditionalism. Ibid. 223 This Conditionalist strain in early Christian thought attained to definite dogmatic expression in Arnobius. 1967 New Catholic Encycl. VI. 1006/2 Others+resolved the problem of the punishment of the demons and the ****ed by means of the theory of conditionalism.

    If there are any more positions, I'll add them later.
    Last edited by Columcille; 04-08-2009 at 11:17 PM. Reason: add conditionalism with quotes.

  4. #4
    Columcille
    Guest

    Default

    Many admit the existence of hell, but deny the eternity of its punishment. Conditionalists hold only a hypothetical immortality of the soul, and ***ert that after undergoing a certain amount of punishment, the souls of the wicked will be annihilated. Among the Gnostics the Valentinians held this doctrine, and later on also Arnobius, the Socinians, many Protestants both in the past and in our own times, especially of late (Edw. White, "Life in Christ", New York, 1877). The Universalists teach that in the end all the ****ed, at least all human souls, will attain bea***ude (apokatastasis ton panton, res***utio omnium, according to Origen). This was a tenet of the Origenists and the Misericordes of whom St. Augustine speaks (City of God XXI.18).
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

    I have given the above quote for a specific purpose. You have stated that your view of the soul is "conditional unity." Since it is easy for people to mistake the term "conditional unity" with "Conditionalism," I thought perhaps you might want to comment on how the relation between the soul and body of those whose happen to reside in Hell, do you view their punishment as temporary or eternal? If it is temporal, does their soul cease to exist or do they enter into heaven or a particular paradise state?

  5. #5
    jade84116
    Guest

    Smile Souls Immortal, Hellfire Torture Forever

    The Antichrist and the False Prophet are put in the lake of fire at the beginning of the millennium and are still alive 1100 years later when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. This can only mean that souls are immortal and cannot be obliterated by the lake of fire.

  6. #6
    Columcille
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jade84116 View Post
    The Antichrist and the False Prophet are put in the lake of fire at the beginning of the millennium and are still alive 1100 years later when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. This can only mean that souls are immortal and cannot be obliterated by the lake of fire.
    From an ontological study of the self, self examination, there are a variety of views based on experience. Some of that experience is suggestive or taught, and in some cases manipulated. For example, hallucinations can occur from lack of nutrition. People see marages in the desert because they desire water; some smoke drugs, sniff paint, or use drugs in other various delivery methods to affect perception. What can be known is what Rene Discartes taught from Augustine, "I am if I am mistaken" to "I think therefore I exist." In the present sense, my existence of who I am has no relevance to ideas of "past lives." The idea of justice is so prevalent in every culture that acts of disruption are punished and acts of heroism recognized. Between virtue and vice, there seems to be a clear choice. This choice demands on an interpersonal level to take responsibility of one's actions in this life without the necessary supervision of police, parent, and others. Stealing something that belongs to an en***y as the government or business may not affect or seriously harm anybody, but getting away with it is no less an act which is against the moral code. The idea of God as the lawgiver and the righteous judge is most effective in taking personal responsibility. People who believe in Karma have a very subjective idea of the consequences attached to wrong decisions and as such leads to a theoretical discussion on reincarnation or similiar beliefs. As a Catholic, going to confession is one of the most satisfying experiences because advice from a third party who is interested in your spiritual health helps reconciliation. If a person does not confess their injury to another person, the small loss is never made up, even if anonymously all is returned with interest because the victim has not seem the perpetrator face to face to confront the issues of the loss.

  7. #7
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    the words "soul" and Spirit can flip back and forth.

    To me this just shows us that the two terms are interchangeable and mean about the very same thing.

  8. #8
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    one of the things i think gets mixed up is the idea of a "soul".....and the human "mind"

    They are not the same thing...

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