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Thread: Christian-Muslim Relations. CCC 841;LG 16; NA3

  1. #1
    Columcille
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    Default Christian-Muslim Relations. CCC 841;LG 16; NA3

    841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

    330 LG 16; cf. NA 3.
    LG is the Lumen gentium NA is Nostra aetate.

    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_c...entium_en.html

    16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.


    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_c...aetate_en.html

    3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

    Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

  2. #2
    Leslie
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    I have a question in regardes to this. Is this saying that Muslims and non-believing Jews are going to go to heaven because they claim to worship the same God that we Christians worship? How can this be because they deny the Son, and Scripture says that whoever denies the Son denies the Father?

  3. #3
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    I have a question in regardes to this. Is this saying that Muslims and non-believing Jews are going to go to heaven because they claim to worship the same God that we Christians worship? How can this be because they deny the Son, and Scripture says that whoever denies the Son denies the Father?
    It's anti-Christ. It is a spirit you know and we are seeing a lot of it these days, even in "The Church". Ever heard of Carlton Pearson? For years he was an evangelical Christian. Now he preaches the "gospel of Inclusion" which means nobody goes to hell regardless of what they do with Jesus Christ.

    If the Catholic church believes that the Muslims and Jews can byp*** Jesus then they are actually anti-Christ in spirit too. And it doesn't matter how much they are against immorality and abortion if they deny Jesus is who he is well then they've missed the boat, succession of the direct line Apostles or not.

  4. #4
    Leslie
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    I just found this, and it's kinda disturbing.

    http://www.romancatholicism.org/universal-salvation.htm

    Universal salvation?

    Does the Roman Catholic Church teach that EVERYONE is going to heaven?

    Isn't that, you know, heresy?

  5. #5
    Columcille
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    Default Not a Catholic site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    I just found this, and it's kinda disturbing.

    http://www.romancatholicism.org/universal-salvation.htm

    Universal salvation?

    Does the Roman Catholic Church teach that EVERYONE is going to heaven?

    Isn't that, you know, heresy?
    First of all, no such Catholic site is going to put forward itself as a "Roman Catholic," much less state Catholicism as "Roman Catholicism." I cannot even get any text or pictures when I try to get the homepage of this site. Who is it run by? etc.. You must notice on the website it mentioning Origen; I think this the most easiest to re****. It shows the inconsistency of the website in putting forth authoritative Catholic teaching.

    As far as quoting Origen is concerned. Here is a definition from the OED:

    Origenist:
    A disciple or follower of the famous Greek Christian Father Origen of Alexandria (c185–253), or a holder of some one of the special doctrines attributed to Origen, among which were a threefold sense (literal, moral, and mystical) in Scripture, the pre-existence of souls, and the probable ultimate salvation of all men and of the fallen angels.


    There are numerous quotes condemning Origenism in the OED. I think many of the p***ages should lay out some interesting aspects. But the Catholic Church has rejected such beliefs should be beyond doubt. There is salvation, prior to the knowledge of Christ, before Christ came into the world and also applied to prior to coming into the knowledge of the Gospel. Hence, if you preach the Gospel to an infant born of a pagan family, their capacity would not register a knowledge of the Gospel for there to be a choice... hence the infant of such parents as he grows and does not encounter the Gospel still falls under the salvation plan as perceived by natural means supported by Romans 1.

    1858 R. A. Vaughan Ess. & Rem. I. 43 Many of the Origenists held opinions which the departed Origen would never have sanctioned.

    1727–41 Chambers Cycl., Origenians,+a sect of ancient heretics, who even surp***ed the abominations of the Gnostics. St. Epiphanius speaks of them as still subsisting in his time.+ They rejected marriage.

    1903 W. Bright Age of Fathers II. xxix. 54 Anastasius+condemned Origenism in a Roman synod.

    1966 H. Chadwick Early Christian Thought & Cl***ical Tradition iv. 120 In judging the system of Origen as a whole it is important to remember that some of the most characteristic features of ‘Origenism’ are not his personal invention.

  6. #6
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    I have a question in regardes to this. Is this saying that Muslims and non-believing Jews are going to go to heaven because they claim to worship the same God that we Christians worship? How can this be because they deny the Son, and Scripture says that whoever denies the Son denies the Father?
    If you look at the Lumen gentium, those parenthesis that contain the numbers in the 100's are notes of the Scriptural references being made. The context of such p***ages are not jumping to your conclusions. They are a preChristian stage of salvation, one that would be shared among the Jews prior to Christ's fulfillment. It would also have to indicate in the stage of all mankind, the natural state of a righteous man prior to the coming into such contact with the Gospel in a meaningful way.

    So it is not saying that they are worshiping the Trinity, but that they are worshipping God knowing him partially as being the monotheistic expression. This is a naturalistic salvation, one that is a precursor to Gospel salvation. To deny salvation of the people of God prior to Christ's coming, is to undermine the sacredness of Scripture of the O.T.. It would also undermine the N.T. when Romans one and two clearly point to a naturalistic salvation.

    There is also another important aspect of Christian-Muslim relations, particularly for the Christian, in which we are to be peace-makers as Christ tells us on the Sermon of the Mount. We are to be at peace with people who are not believers. This is an important aspect of Christian-Muslim relations. As such, it is important to recognize our commonality, but to reject what is percieved as error by both parties in a civil manner.

    What I think in regards to the last statement is that these people, those righteous ones that have not come to know Christ's message in a meaningful manner or who have not encountered the Gospel are still obtaining their salvation to the Father from the Son, so that as Christ says that he is the resurrection and the life and the only way to the Father still holds true with the preChristian or righteous man.

  7. #7
    Leslie
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    The thing is, no one that is not a Christian can be righteous. The Old Testament Saints were righteous based on their relationship to Jeohavah God and his commandments. I can understand a Christian saying they and the Jews worship the same God because we share the Old Testament, so that doesn't bother me as much. But the Muslims do not worship Yahweh. allah is not Yahweh.

    If you compare how they see Allah to how we and even the Jews understand God, you'll note that.

    Plus, they also like to twist and change the stories of both the Old and New Testaments.

    If you could go back in time to about 100 A.D or so, and asked a Catholic if he worshiped the same God as the Muslims and you would not get the same answer that the Catechism says. They would call them Heathens or pagans.

    Shall we also say that the Zoroastrians worship the same god as us too?

  8. #8
    Columcille
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    Talk to a Jewish Rabbi and ask them if the Muslims share their same theology of One God. The Jewish Rabbi will more likely agree with him than they will with us, simply because the Trinity was not conceptionalized or I should say revealed more plainly when Christ came down.

  9. #9
    Trinity
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    Hello Leslie,

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    If you could go back in time to about 100 A.D or so, and asked a Catholic if he worshiped the same God as the Muslims and you would not get the same answer that the Catechism says. They would call them Heathens or pagans.
    There were no muslims during the first century. This religion started in the seventh century.

    Mohammed life and the lives of his companions were saved (and they were under the protection) by a christian King (Negus, King of Ethiopia) when they have fled from their enemies. They fled from Mecca (from the polytheists who wanted to kill them). Later they had established themselves at Habsha and to Medina around 620. In preparation for their return and conquest of the Mecca.

    The king Negus protected them because they were monotheists. Believers of the God of Abraham.

    http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/negus.html

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 11-23-2008 at 06:43 PM.

  10. #10
    Leslie
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    I'm sorry, that was a typo. I ment 1000 AD.

    And I still say that they do not worship the God of Abraham. Allah is not Yahweh.

  11. #11
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    I'm sorry, that was a typo. I ment 1000 AD.

    And I still say that they do not worship the God of Abraham. Allah is not Yahweh.
    Ok, no problem.

    God is not a noun for God too.

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 11-23-2008 at 08:04 PM.

  12. #12
    Columcille
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    Default etymology of Allah and Semitic closeness

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    I'm sorry, that was a typo. I ment 1000 AD.

    And I still say that they do not worship the God of Abraham. Allah is not Yahweh.
    I have laid below the etymology of Allah and also the meaning of the word Semitic for the purpose to demonstrate against your literistic adherence to state what is an obvious misconception. Allah is not Yahweh, which to you does not sound the same. However, if you check the Christian Scripture translations into Arabic, you are going to be surprised that Allah is in fact Yahweh. The reason it is should be obvious when you look at Allah's roots having the same similarities with the Aramic and Hebrew. But again, I think any O.T. scholar is going to agree that the theological monotheistic conception of Islam is the very same as Judaism. Both have lineages that go back to Abraham; both believe in One God. Other than that, what can we say? If they are presented with the Gospel and the Holy Spirit opens their eyes to the truth, it is at that conjecture where whether their righteousness comes from God or not... for the natural inclination of the righteous by God is going to gravitate to the Gospel on the merits of truth and love.

    Allah etymology from the Oxford English Dictionary:

    [a. Arab. allah the (true) God, contr. of al-ilah, i.e. al the + ilah god = Aram. elah, Heb. eloah.]


    Semitic:

    b. In linguistic sense: The distinctive epithet of that family of languages of which Hebrew, Aramæan, Arabic, Ethiopic, and ancient ***yrian, are the principal members. Hence (in Semitic scholar, studies, grammar, philology, etc.) concerned with the Semitic languages.

  13. #13
    Leslie
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    So you honestly think that the God of the Old Testament is the SAME God of the Quran?

  14. #14
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    So you honestly think that the God of the Old Testament is the SAME God of the Quran?
    I think the God of the O.T. is the same as the N.T., since the N.T. fulfills the O.T.. But in regards to a theology of the Quran with the theology of the O.T., yes. Judaism and Islam both teach the same in respects to there being only one God. I will say, other than that, the cultures are quite different and the stories in the Quran do contradict in detail... where Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac, the Quran places Ishmael instead... but the story of the sacrifice is still to the same monotheistic God.

    Deuteronomy 6.4-6 states:

    Listen (shema), Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim. Yahweh alone (ehad)! You shall love Yahweh with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength. Let these words I urge upon you today be written on your hearts.

    The Quran states "He is the One God, God, the Eternal, the Uncaused Cause of all being. He begets not, and neither is he begotten and there is nothing that could be compared to him." Quran surra 112.



    The following website is an Islamic one by the Islamic Society of Colorado Springs, I think it useful to at least show some similiarities and differences as they see it.
    http://www.isocs.org/I101C/9_similarities.htm

  15. #15
    Leslie
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    Do you believe that the Zoroastrians worship the same god too?

    Also, if I'm not mistaken Allah never required sacrifices for sin did he?

  16. #16
    Columcille
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    Default zoroastrianism off topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    Do you believe that the Zoroastrians worship the same god too?

    Also, if I'm not mistaken Allah never required sacrifices for sin did he?
    Based on what I read about it in wikipedia, there are certainly interesting comparisons. It is definitely a preChristian religion, which seems to have some influence in its cl***ic antiquity with Cyrus II releasing the Jews from captivity. Its following is certainly not a major religion and it is a complicated religion in various respects, so much of anything I say on it would be out of ignorance. For instance, I do not know if Zoroaster ever made a claim to descend from Abraham or to the Abrahamic faith in one God. It seems that in some respects Ahura Mazda is one God, but I cannot say for any certainty how this God is viewed in terms of an impersonal or personal God and its make up in relation to Jewish and Islamic theology of One God.

    Besides, I think Zoroastrianism is off topic since it is not discussed in the Catechism, the LG, nor the NA quotes I have given.

    But to answer your question, I would have to be consistent in the N.T. presentation of Romans 1 and 2; namely that nobody is without excuse knowing sin from cause-effect relations incurring the wrath of God and seeing God's nature through his creation and that they practice the things of the law unto themselves to be considered righteous by God. This is the main crux of the Catholic teaching here. You must refute Romans 1 and 2 to make me believe that salvation is not possible for those who do not know Christ and his Gospel... I say that Christ extends his salvation to these ignorant yet righteous group of individuals regardless of their ignorance so that both Romans 1 and 2 fulfills John's message that there is no salvation apart from Christ.

  17. #17
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    Do you believe that the Zoroastrians worship the same god too?

    Also, if I'm not mistaken Allah never required sacrifices for sin did he?
    As far as the Allah of Islam, it would follow similarily with the Judaism that did not have a temple for blood sacrifices. Of course, we can see that God is most satisfied with obedience than sacrifice in an O.T. p***age. You are certainly adding more input than what the Catholic Church has stated in the catechism which references the LG and NA quotes. Perhaps we should go sentence by sentence in the LG and NA quotes since the Catechism entry is just restipulating its summary.

  18. #18
    Leslie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    Based on what I read about it in wikipedia, there are certainly interesting comparisons. It is definitely a preChristian religion, which seems to have some influence in its cl***ic antiquity with Cyrus II releasing the Jews from captivity. Its following is certainly not a major religion and it is a complicated religion in various respects, so much of anything I say on it would be out of ignorance. For instance, I do not know if Zoroaster ever made a claim to descend from Abraham or to the Abrahamic faith in one God. It seems that in some respects Ahura Mazda is one God, but I cannot say for any certainty how this God is viewed in terms of an impersonal or personal God and its make up in relation to Jewish and Islamic theology of One God.

    Besides, I think Zoroastrianism is off topic since it is not discussed in the Catechism, the LG, nor the NA quotes I have given.

    But to answer your question, I would have to be consistent in the N.T. presentation of Romans 1 and 2; namely that nobody is without excuse knowing sin from cause-effect relations incurring the wrath of God and seeing God's nature through his creation and that they practice the things of the law unto themselves to be considered righteous by God. This is the main crux of the Catholic teaching here. You must refute Romans 1 and 2 to make me believe that salvation is not possible for those who do not know Christ and his Gospel... I say that Christ extends his salvation to these ignorant yet righteous group of individuals regardless of their ignorance so that both Romans 1 and 2 fulfills John's message that there is no salvation apart from Christ.
    So according to the Catholic Church, a person could worship a pagan god, like the muslims, and still go to heaven?


    Also, what about this?

    Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus
    Last edited by Leslie; 11-26-2008 at 07:02 PM.

  19. #19
    Columcille
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    Default Will have to start a new thread on extra ecclesiam...

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    So according to the Catholic Church, a person could worship a pagan god, like the muslims, and still go to heaven?


    Also, what about this?

    Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus
    According to Romans 1 and 2, and according to the scripture p***ages that is referenced in the quotes I have given a person meeting these requirements still have to go through Christ at the judgement where every knee shall bow and tongue confess that he is Lord. Go check it out. Sentence by sentence if we have to.

    Outside the Church there is no salvation? Guess you should start a new thread. If I introduce any material related to it, we will eventually find ourselves off-topic. When we can check the context of which "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" in its own context, I think we can revisit how it relates to this discussion. Remind me to also point to John Paul II's encyclical "Ut unum sint." Also, we should be able to visit the CCEL site. Just for my own reference to a new post on the subject matter... wikipedia has mentioned Saint Cyprian of Carthage in the third century made that phrase. It is accepted by both the East and the West, so it is not just something made up by the Vatican.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_E...am_nulla_salus

  20. #20
    Leslie
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    I'm just confused, because what you're saying sounds like Universalism. Which means that you don't need Jesus to go to Heaven. Jesus said that he was the ONLY way to heaven. How can this be true in light of what you're saying?

  21. #21
    Columcille
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    Default Pauline common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    I'm just confused, because what you're saying sounds like Universalism. Which means that you don't need Jesus to go to Heaven. Jesus said that he was the ONLY way to heaven. How can this be true in light of what you're saying?
    Have you read Romans 1 and 2? It should not be confusing. Are you to suggest to me that the nomads in the bush who haven't heard about Jesus are going to hell? Are you telling me that a muslim, who hasn't heard the Gospel undiluted is going to hell? It is retroactive, on the day of judgement, they also must go through Christ. It is not universalism, it is plain Pauline common sense.

  22. #22
    Leslie
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    I'm sorry Councile, but I've read Romans 1 and 2 and I don't see it. Maybe I'm stupid I don't know, but could you point out what in the text you seem to be refering to please?

  23. #23
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    I'm sorry Councile, but I've read Romans 1 and 2 and I don't see it. Maybe I'm stupid I don't know, but could you point out what in the text you seem to be refering to please?
    Romans 1.18-20 NIV

    18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.


    Romans 2. 5-16. NIV

    5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

    12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.



    Verses 14-15 shows the exception, but verse 16 shows that even this exception must go through Jesus Christ. It is not universalism, but a person who is judged with the natural revelation or what divine revelation that they have obtained.

  24. #24
    Leslie
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    That is not saying a person who worships a pagan god will go to heaven.....

    He's saying that people can't make excuses for why they didn't come to God because he's self evident in nature. What you're trying to say is that if a person does good works, he will go to heaven, no matter if he worships Christ as God or demotes him to a mere prophet apparantly.

    I wonder what one of the Popes of the middle ages would have said if you told him his Church now says they worship the same god as the Muslims. He'd probably call you a heretic and burn you at the stake.

  25. #25
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    That is not saying a person who worships a pagan god will go to heaven.....

    He's saying that people can't make excuses for why they didn't come to God because he's self evident in nature. What you're trying to say is that if a person does good works, he will go to heaven, no matter if he worships Christ as God or demotes him to a mere prophet apparantly.

    I wonder what one of the Popes of the middle ages would have said if you told him his Church now says they worship the same god as the Muslims. He'd probably call you a heretic and burn you at the stake.
    There are many heresys in all ages, perhaps you can find a quote for me. I am sure Islam's spread must have elicited some comments from the popes. Perhaps you can demonstrate. As is, all I can find suggests a consistency. What you are saying I am saying is, however, is false. If Christ is not present in the person's life, meaning he has never encountered Christ meaningfully, then he falls under the stipulations of the p***ages I have quoted. Muslims that are brought up believing Jesus is not God in the flesh have not encountered the Gospel meaningfully. They have a some error in their religious beliefs mixed in with some very truthful elements. But do not mistake the terms pagan with Islam, Islam is not paganism. It is not nature worship. They believe in one God just the same as Judaism. If Christ judges a person to be righteous at the end of the age, it is his perogative. As such, I think the p***ages I have given demonstrate a general application of that judgement.

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