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Thread: Can we have a "real" discussion about Joseph Smith and Polygamy?

  1. #51
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    To be honest, I was going through a very tough time, spiritually, when I wrote that. I was even considering going back to the LDS church. But, that would not have been right for me and I do believe the Holy Spirit was very instrumental in helping me see that.
    Since so many folks who most consider anti-Mormon whine the mantra "how do you know it was the Holy Spirit?" I am tempted to ask the same. But since describing the leading of the Holy Spirit is no as easy as it may seem I'll leave that alone. I thought I'd just comment since you speak as most LDS.

    love,
    stem

  2. #52
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I didn't embrace any of those people, Peter. I embraced Jesus Christ, alone. He is the one I follow. Not Luther, not Smith, not any man.
    Embracing the teachings of Christ, to some, is embracing man's teachings. It depends on how you want to view it. You seem to imply that accepting LDs teaching is embracing Smith. Well it could just as easily be said that accepting evangelicalism, protestantism, catholocism, is embracing man's teachings--Paul's teachings, James' teachings, Augustine's teachings, etc.

    As for putting "reason" in a "magisterial" role, neither have I done that. The Holy Spirit still guides me. But, we have God-given "reason" for a purpose. We are not supposed to set that aside in favor of "feelings" that may or may NOT be a manifestation of the Spirit.
    I'm curious, wherein did Christ teach you that our reason is supposed to supplant manifestations of the Spirit?

    love,
    stem

  3. #53
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --Well, I don't believe God ever commanded Trinitarianism....
    Well, I don't believe God ever commanded people to be democrats. But now we have one as president! (just kidding)

    Just goes to show ya. :-)

    Men do funny things, like believe polygamy is a "revelation from God."

    P.S. I don't remember the guy's name. A pro football player once said (I think he was joking) that he would consider becoming Mormon just for the polygamy. I guess that was something which he thought would have been just wonderful!

    I suppose sleeping with different women was something he was already doing. It was on his mind, obviously.
    Last edited by Russ; 12-17-2008 at 09:02 AM.

  4. #54
    Russ
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    Default Libs, did they answer?

    Were your questions addressed to your satisfaction by LDS who post on this forum?

    1. Why did Joseph have himself sealed to girls as young as 14?

    2. Why did he marry women that were already married?

    3. Why were these girls/women coerced by telling them that their families' spiritual lives depended on whether or not they married Joseph?

    4. Do you believe there really was a "destroying angel" that would have taken Joseph's life, if certain of these women had not married him?

  5. #55
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    Well, I don't believe God ever commanded people to be democrats. But now we have one as president! (just kidding)
    ---Yeah, and God never commanded people to be radical Evangelicals, but some of you tried pretty hard to smear Romney in order to put a radical Evan in the White House. Ended up with McCain vs. Obama, and then McCain lost. Didn't work out so well.

    Men do funny things, like believe polygamy is a "revelation from God."
    --Or believe "Commit genocide against the Amalekites, including their infants" is a "revelation from God." Yes, people are just funny that way, aren't they?

    I suppose sleeping with different women was something he was already doing. It was on his mind, obviously.
    ---Speaking of Evans who sleep with different women, er, people, I see that Ted Haggard, former president over 30 million Evangelicals, is back, preaching and selling insurance. (AP article, 11/29/08) And didn't the Vp of the A.A.E. just resign or get canned for his beliefs regarding who it's okay to sleep with? Trouble in Evanville, it seems.

  6. #56
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Yeah, and God never commanded people to be radical Evangelicals, but some of you tried pretty hard to smear Romney in order to put a radical Evan in the White House. Ended up with McCain vs. Obama, and then McCain lost. Didn't work out so well.



    --Or believe "Commit genocide against the Amalekites, including their infants" is a "revelation from God." Yes, people are just funny that way, aren't they?


    ---Speaking of Evans who sleep with different women, er, people, I see that Ted Haggard, former president over 30 million Evangelicals, is back, preaching and selling insurance. (AP article, 11/29/08) And didn't the Vp of the A.A.E. just resign or get canned for his beliefs regarding who it's okay to sleep with? Trouble in Evanville, it seems.
    You have a lot of topics going on there.

    "Can we have a "real" discussion about Joseph Smith and Polygamy?"

    Perhaps your topics are better suited for the politics boards, evangelical immorality boards and/or genocide boards.

    There are probably lots of people out there willing to discuss those things.

    If I think about Lib's questions, one comes to mind.

    Why did Joseph Smith marry other men's wives?
    Last edited by Russ; 12-17-2008 at 01:52 PM.

  7. #57
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    Speaking of Evans who sleep with different women, er, people, I see that Ted Haggard, former president over 30 million Evangelicals, is back, preaching and selling insurance. (AP article, 11/29/08) And didn't the Vp of the A.A.E. just resign or get canned for his beliefs regarding who it's okay to sleep with? Trouble in Evanville, it seems.
    1) Ted Haggard is gay and not a womanizer.
    2) He has the right to sell insurance, to have a ***, and to provide for his family.
    3) He is a fake preacher who is trying to recover from his scandal. He should stay in the insurance.

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 12-17-2008 at 02:00 PM.

  8. #58
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Since so many folks who most consider anti-Mormon whine the mantra "how do you know it was the Holy Spirit?" I am tempted to ask the same. But since describing the leading of the Holy Spirit is no as easy as it may seem I'll leave that alone. I thought I'd just comment since you speak as most LDS.

    love,
    stem
    That would have been a fair question. Some of it has to do with not getting answers to questions, like I have asked on this thread. I'm sure some will consider that just a blatant lack of faith on my part. But, it's difficult to have faith in someone whose strange/possibly very immoral behavior cannot be explained.

  9. #59
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    Were your questions addressed to your satisfaction by LDS who post on this forum?

    1. Why did Joseph have himself sealed to girls as young as 14?

    2. Why did he marry women that were already married?

    3. Why were these girls/women coerced by telling them that their families' spiritual lives depended on whether or not they married Joseph?

    4. Do you believe there really was a "destroying angel" that would have taken Joseph's life, if certain of these women had not married him?
    No............

  10. #60
    Russ
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    Default Imagine that

    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    No............
    A chief complaint of Mormons is that their faith is misrepresented and misunderstood.

    And when asked pointed questions they don't answer those questions.


    A phenomenon.

  11. #61
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    You have a lot of topics going on there.
    ---Well, there is a lot going on in the world of Evangelicalism. It's a fascinating cult. You should do some research into it when you have time, since you are in an anti-cult "ministry."

    Perhaps your topics are better suited for the politics boards, evangelical immorality boards and/or genocide boards.

    ---There is an evangelical immorality board here? Who in their right mind and claiming to be a Christian, would create a board sensationalizing the alleged immorality of other believers? Oh, yeah, that's right....

  12. #62
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    1) Ted Haggard is gay and not a womanizer.
    ---Yes, good point, and that's why I used the term "sleeping with different er, people"

    2) He has the right to sell insurance, to have a ***, and to provide for his family.
    3) He is a fake preacher who is trying to recover from his scandal. He should stay in the insurance. Trinity
    ---I agree, although some have pointed out that selling the gospel is, in a way, selling fire insurance--insurance from the fires of hell...

  13. #63
    Russ
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    Default One more time from the top...

    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---Well, there is a lot going on in the world of Evangelicalism. It's a fascinating cult. You should do some research into it when you have time, since you are in an anti-cult "ministry."



    ---There is an evangelical immorality board here? Who in their right mind and claiming to be a Christian, would create a board sensationalizing the alleged immorality of other believers? Oh, yeah, that's right....
    And a one, and a two, and a three....

    Can we have a "real" discussion about Joseph Smith and Polygamy?

    Libs has some questions for you.

  14. #64
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    That would have been a fair question. Some of it has to do with not getting answers to questions, like I have asked on this thread. I'm sure some will consider that just a blatant lack of faith on my part. But, it's difficult to have faith in someone whose strange/possibly very immoral behavior cannot be explained.
    I answered each one of your questions that started this thread. Straight up.

    You don't have to have faith in Joseph himself.

    love,
    stem

  15. #65
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    I answered each one of your questions that started this thread. Straight up.

    You don't have to have faith in Joseph himself.

    love,
    stem
    When I asked Libby: were your questions addressed to your satisfaction by LDS who post on this forum?

    She wrote, "No."

    That's an unsatisfied customer who wants her money back.

    And she wants to talk to the manager, now.

    (Sorry, it's the customer service guy in me.)

  16. #66
    Libby
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    Stem, you did try to answer my questions (and I appreciate that) but your answers were, basically, "I don't know".

    And then, Seebok, in his usual ploy, simply tried to divert the argument to Luther and other historical Christians who supposedly did similarly awful things. That doesn't really explain Joseph. It explains why Seebok might not want to follow Luther, but it doesn't explain why he is following Joseph.
    Last edited by Libby; 12-18-2008 at 09:01 PM.

  17. #67
    Libby
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    I get so tired of these circular discussions. Just tell me to put on a blindfold and follow! Bah!

  18. #68
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I get so tired of these circular discussions. Just tell me to put on a blindfold and follow! Bah!
    lol, Libby!

    Exactly. 'Round and 'round. No direct answers.

    http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/rje0075l.jpg

  19. #69
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Stem, you did try to answer my questions (and I appreciate that) but your answers were, basically, "I don't know".
    I know people whine about things like that. And they complain no one answered. I did my best. Since no one knows JS's heart your questions were unanswerable. Of course that's the easiest way to reject truth, I'd say. Cynically complain about the servants of God as though you know their motives.

    And then, Seebok, in his usual ploy, simply tried to divert the argument to Luther and other historical Christians who supposedly did similarly awful things. That doesn't really explain Joseph. It explains why Seebok might not want to follow Luther, but it doesn't explain why he is following Joseph.
    Too bad...I'm pretty sad. I think he likes to point out the hypocrisy in people's complaints more often than not.

    love,
    stem

  20. #70
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    When I asked Libby: were your questions addressed to your satisfaction by LDS who post on this forum?

    She wrote, "No."

    That's an unsatisfied customer who wants her money back.

    And she wants to talk to the manager, now.

    (Sorry, it's the customer service guy in me.)
    Anyone can whine about people's answers and say, "I don't like your answers". You have done it quite often and thus you're stuck pressing with the same garbage you did 5 years ago--getting no where. I really wish you would drop your anger and learn to accept the truths of God as restored in these latter days. It'd be nice, but I realize that ain't gonna happen merely because I wish it. You have set up quite a defense against the truth. It ain't up to me to pierce through your defense.

    love,
    stem

  21. #71
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I get so tired of these circular discussions. Just tell me to put on a blindfold and follow! Bah!
    Well do your best not to enter into them...then. Follow Christ and stop looking at all the other deflections around. You can call that a blindfold if you want. I don't.

    love,
    stem

  22. #72
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Since no one knows JS's heart your questions were unanswerable. Of course that's the easiest way to reject truth, I'd say. Cynically complain about the servants of God as though you know their motives.
    Any man who goes after other men's wives has a motive problem.

    Joseph Smith took 11 wives of other men while they were still married.

    This rightly bothers Libby. I wonder if you might explain to her why she shouldn't be troubled with such acts.

    For me, "you shall know them by their fruits" comes to mind.

    P.S. Why do you charge Libby with being cynical in her honest questions. Especially since you apparently believe that one cannot know the heart of another and their motives. You give that much slack to Joe Smith. Why not Libby?
    Last edited by Russ; 12-19-2008 at 10:21 AM.

  23. #73
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    P.S. Why do you charge Libby with being cynical in her honest questions. Especially since you apparently believe that one cannot know the heart of another and their motives. You give that much slack to Joe Smith. Why not Libby?
    No. I meant to suggest she can if she wants. I do not know her heart...true.

    love,
    stem

  24. #74
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    No. I meant to suggest she can if she wants. I do not know her heart...true.

    love,
    stem
    The fruits of a man's heart are sometimes found in his insistence that his celestial glory will be added to by marrying other men's wives.

    Is this the type of man whom you think is inspired of God?

    Smith - a charismatic man with a very good imagination (Book of Mormon).

    What would you say to such a man if came for your wife and told him that God had ordered it?

  25. #75
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    What would you say to such a man if came for your wife and told him that God had ordered it?
    ---Russ, what would YOU say if Jesus came to you and ordered you to do something that you felt in your heart was wrong? What would you say to Jesus?

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