Can we have a "real" discussion about Joseph Smith and Polygamy?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD
Thanks for contradicting yourself:

Faith is required.
Works are required.

Therefore, Mormon soteriology is: Faith + WORKS. It's almost amusing to see Mos completely contradict themselves in just one paragraph.

I have NOT contradicted myself. And why do you keep ignoring "faith without works is "? It seems to be so offensive to you, you couldn't even include the word % " when you copied part of my response.

I didn't ignore "works", I stressed to you that works are the OUTWORKING OF ONE'S FAITH. If only you understood James' meaning here: A REAL salvivic faith will be evidenced by works. The works are PROOF that one has TRUE FAITH. A REAL Faith will ALWAYS be accompanied by works...but the works in and of themselves DO NOT SAVE OR JUSTIFY ONE IN THE FORENSIC SENSE WITH GOD.

You have also chosen to ignore the meaning of my words "it takes some effort on your part to determine where you are going to go in the heavens prepared for us". I did not say you are not saved. They DO indicate YOU have some responsibility - it is not a free ride.

You just said now that salvation "is NOT A FREE RIDE". Therefore FAITH in and of itself is INSUFFICIENT and WORKS are a justifying component in Mormon soteriology. All you do is contradict yourself, but the pathetic thing of it all is that you're BLIND to your own self-contradictions!

I have to say, this is a very weak argument against the LDS Church. Every single time I point out that the Bible teaches "faith without works is ", it is ignored as if it did not exist.

LOL. You think because you state something as "such" it must be so. Yes, sbt...FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS . A REAL FAITH WILL BE EVIDENCED BY WORKS BUT THE WORKS DO NOT JUSTIFY ONE OR ADD TO THE SALVIVIC PROCESS. Ya can't say I've ignored this. I've explained it several times to you now...



Quote:
You just AFFIRMED "faith plus works" as somehow misrepresnting your beliefs, but then AFFIRMED that WORKS ARE NECESSARY FOR SALVATION thereby contradicting yourself.

Works are an outworking of that FAITH THAT SAVES.

Why do you refuse to see what I wrote? I affirmed no such thing. You actually have the chance, in this life, to either produce works or not. It is works that help determine where in heaven you will end up. It is NOT works that save. If you want to spend eternity in a lower level of heaven that is up to you. You certainly will not be able to pretend you didn't know, however, that faith goes hand-in-hand in determining where you wind up.

First of all, there's ONLY ONE HEAVEN...and not the multi-tiered imaginary Mormon heaven where even UNREPENTANT SINNERS GO. Suffice it to say, that NOW you're equivocating your argument to that of "rewards".

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Originally Posted by Father_JD
Thanks for contradicting yourself:

Faith is required.
Works are required.

Therefore, Mormon soteriology is: Faith + WORKS. It's almost amusing to see Mos completely contradict themselves in just one paragraph.

I didn't ignore "works", I stressed to you that works are the OUTWORKING OF ONE'S FAITH. If only you understood James' meaning here: A REAL salvivic faith will be evidenced by works. The works are PROOF that one has TRUE FAITH. A REAL Faith will ALWAYS be accompanied by works...but the works in and of themselves DO NOT SAVE OR JUSTIFY ONE IN THE FORENSIC SENSE WITH GOD.

You just said now that salvation "is NOT A FREE RIDE". Therefore FAITH in and of itself is INSUFFICIENT and WORKS are a justifying component in Mormon soteriology. All you do is contradict yourself, but the pathetic thing of it all is that you're BLIND to your own self-contradictions!

LOL. You think because you state something as "such" it must be so. Yes, sbt...FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS . A REAL FAITH WILL BE EVIDENCED BY WORKS BUT THE WORKS DO NOT JUSTIFY ONE OR ADD TO THE SALVIVIC PROCESS. Ya can't say I've ignored this. I've explained it several times to you now...

Quote:
You just AFFIRMED "faith plus works" as somehow misrepresnting your beliefs, but then AFFIRMED that WORKS ARE NECESSARY FOR SALVATION thereby contradicting yourself.

Works are an outworking of that FAITH THAT SAVES.

First of all, there's ONLY ONE HEAVEN...and not the multi-tiered imaginary Mormon heaven where even UNREPENTANT SINNERS GO. Suffice it to say, that NOW you're equivocating your argument to that of "rewards".

There IS more than one level in Heaven. Read Revelations. Read the Book of Enoch (I'm sure you can find a copy to read). Those are two sources written before Christ restored His Church.

Works help determine WHERE you are going to wind up in Heaven. Works do not save you. What do you not understand here???

You have made an interesting interpretation of the Bible. To me, being truly "converted" is what drives the desire to do good works. Continuing to keep the commandments is a reflection of being truly converted, and results in good works by the very nature of keeping many of the commandments. There are many people who love their neighbors and their enemies and serve them who have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Their works will get them farther once they learn about Christ and have faith in Him as their Savior, then John Q. Citizen (JQC) who has had faith in Christ all of his life but is too distracted by the world to do things for others. At the end of their life, they both have faith which saves them. But JQC's reward will not be the same as someone who has served mankind with love even though he didn't know about Jesus Christ for as long as JQC did. Yet they are both saved.

If works were not such an important point, it would not have been mentioned over 100 times in the Bible. And it certainly would not have been part of the same sentence as faith. The second greatest commandment is to love thy neighbor as you love yourself. Here as well, there is a natural outflow of works because of the love you have for your neighbor. It is well understood, for instance, the love between a husband and wife will die if there are no "works" done for each other.

In the same way, faith will die without works. This does not mean you didn't have faith at some point. If your life is in the ****per, it is easy to stop doing things for others. This does not make you a bad person; it just means you are going through some type of learning period. When we remember how the Bible teaches us to serve others, however, we are able to look beyond our own problems and get back on track. During that stagnant period, our faith may not have been enough to inspire us to keep doing things for others. But that does not mean we were no longer saved. It all works together. One thing is built upon on another.


Regardless, I have stated several times it IS faith that saves. For example, suppose two men in a hospital room are on their death beds. Man #1 accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior there on his death bed. He is a thief. He never did anything kind for anyone else in his entire life. His faith will save him. (albeit his ordinances will still have to be performed following his death....but that is the subject for another thread) Man #2 accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior there on his death bed. He has been a loving, kind and generous man during his lifetime. He is saved as well (ditto about his ordinances needing to be performed). Both men will go to Heaven. The man who did the good works in his lifetime is going to receive the greater reward. Yet they are both saved.

I have NOT contradicted myself.

Your beliefs keep faith and works so far apart when discussing them, you diminish the important role that works has in the entire scheme of things. It is much easier for someone to ignore the works because they decide they just don't have the energy to do things for others. This is doing a great disservice to individuals because they are not focused on the entire picture. There is a great danger in this belief system for people to drop the ball on the importance of works.

True faith leads to repentance; repentance leads to love for our Savior and our Heavenly Father; this love leads to loving others; that love leads to good works. Faith saves us; good works increase our rewards. What beautiful truths these represent in reality since love for others breaks down the walls of distrust, fear, and hate. Alas, there is not much love to be found on this website for one another. Much more is given than is received. It is encouraging to note; however, that it is more blessed to give than to receive.


SavedbyTruth

[Father_JD]

There IS more than one level in Heaven. Read Revelations. Read the Book of Enoch (I'm sure you can find a copy to read). Those are two sources written before Christ restored His Church.

Oh! When did the "Book of Enoch" BECOME A PART OF THE MORMON "STANDARD WORKS"??? Why should I care what's contained in a spurious Gnostic writing which the ancient church rightly dismissed as "scripture"???

Works help determine WHERE you are going to wind up in Heaven. Works do not save you. What do you not understand here???

While the Bible does NOT teach a multi-tiered "heaven" where even UNREPENTANT MURDERERS, ET AL GO TO, the Bible DOES teach that works determine the amount of REWARDS or lack thereof for the REDEEMED, it also teaches that works determine the amount of PUNISHMENT, greater or lesser for the REPROBATE, the ****ED.

You have made an interesting interpretation of the Bible. To me, being truly "converted" is what drives the desire to do good works.

Good one. I rarely agree with Mos but I can on this one. Perhaps a bit of your Lutheran background is peeking through here to which I say, "AMEN!!"

Continuing to keep the commandments is a reflection of being truly converted, and results in good works by the very nature of keeping many of the commandments.

Ok. So far so good...but what you write next is fraught with error:

There are many people who love their neighbors and their enemies and serve them who have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Their works will get them farther once they learn about Christ and have faith in Him as their Savior

The historic Christian position is that so-called "works" performed by the reprobate are not acceptable to God, having been born from an UNREGENERATE state. Re-read this five or six times before commenting.

then John Q. Citizen (JQC) who has had faith in Christ all of his life but is too distracted by the world to do things for others.

You've contradicted yourself again. Earlier you said that one one is truly converted that one WILL WANT TO SERVE OTHERS, etc. And NOW you're saying it's possible that there's FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS ALIVE. See your contradiction...yet?? Better re-read this several times as well.

At the end of their life, they both have faith which saves them. But JQC's reward will not be the same as someone who has served mankind with love even though he didn't know about Jesus Christ for as long as JQC did. Yet they are both saved.

Almost "Christian" but not quite. Both would be saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH, and faith alone.

If works were not such an important point, it would not have been mentioned over 100 times in the Bible. And it certainly would not have been part of the same sentence as faith. The second greatest commandment is to love thy neighbor as you love yourself. Here as well, there is a natural outflow of works because of the love you have for your neighbor. It is well understood, for instance, the love between a husband and wife will die if there are no "works" done for each other.

Never said works weren't "important"...just pointing out the Mormon heresy regarding them. Bottom line in Mormon soteriology?? Works save one along with faith.

In the same way, faith will die without works. This does not mean you didn't have faith at some point.

Now this idea is nearly "Roman Catholic". You've got works somehow preserving faith...it's the other way around: REAL Faith WILL result in works. If you have no "works", your "faith" was NOT ALIVE BUT A DEAD FAITH THAT CAN SAVE NO ONE.

If your life is in the ****per, it is easy to stop doing things for others. This does not make you a bad person; it just means you are going through some type of learning period. When we remember how the Bible teaches us to serve others, however, we are able to look beyond our own problems and get back on track. During that stagnant period, our faith may not have been enough to inspire us to keep doing things for others. But that does not mean we were no longer saved. It all works together. One thing is built upon on another.

Sorry, sbt...but you're so confused you affirm one thing one moment, and then affirm the OPPOSITE the next. First you said if one doesn't have "works" that one's faith WILL DIE. But now you say, one doesn't have works, but that doesn't mean "we were no longer saved". Do you think you can keep your story straight for just one moment??

Regardless, I have stated several times it IS faith that saves. For example, suppose two men in a hospital room are on their death beds. Man #1 accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior there on his death bed. He is a thief. He never did anything kind for anyone else in his entire life. His faith will save him. (albeit his ordinances will still have to be performed following his death....but that is the subject for another thread)

Ah. But you said in so many words that FAITH WAS SUFFICIENT. Now according to you it is NOT: "Ordinances WILL STILL HAVE TO BE PERFORMED...". Therefore the man's faith wasn't ENOUGH. Btw...the Bible does NOT teach "second chance" salvation. When one dies, either that one is IN CHRIST, or is NOT. "It's appointed unto man to die once, and AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT".

Man #2 accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior there on his death bed. He has been a loving, kind and generous man during his lifetime. He is saved as well (ditto about his ordinances needing to be performed). Both men will go to Heaven. The man who did the good works in his lifetime is going to receive the greater reward. Yet they are both saved.

IF either were truly "saved" at their death beds, then YES.

I have NOT contradicted myself.

See answers above. You have several times contradicted yourself.

Your beliefs keep faith and works so far apart when discussing them, you diminish the important role that works has in the entire scheme of things. It is much easier for someone to ignore the works because they decide they just don't have the energy to do things for others. This is doing a great disservice to individuals because they are not focused on the entire picture. There is a great danger in this belief system for people to drop the ball on the importance of works.

Typical Mormon straw-man. Faith and works are INSEPERABLY BOUND. There. You can't say my belief keep them "far apart". It's YOU who thinks that works still somehow JUSTIFY ONE IN GOD'S SIGHT FROM A FORENSIC POINT OF VIEW. I suggest you really read and understand Eph. 2 for starters.

True faith leads to repentance; repentance leads to love for our Savior and our Heavenly Father; this love leads to loving others; that love leads to good works. Faith saves us; good works increase our rewards.

"We love Him because He FIRST loved us..." is what scripture teaches. But YES!!!! Good works increase our rewards FOR THE REDEEMED and seemingly "good" works LESSEN the punishment in HELL FOR THE REPROBATE.

What beautiful truths these represent in reality since love for others breaks down the walls of distrust, fear, and hate. Alas, there is not much love to be found on this website for one another. Much more is given than is received. It is encouraging to note; however, that it is more blessed to give than to receive.

Uh...there might be some hope for you, sbt. Although Mormonism has confused you, you still retain some correct understanding which is NOT MORMON.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Good one. I rarely agree with Mos but I can on this one. Perhaps a bit of your Lutheran background is peeking through here to which I say, "AMEN!!"

I grew up LDS. And this has been what I've been taught. By their fruits, ye shall know them. Your problem is that you have to maintain that satan inspires LDS to love our fellowman and serve God for selfish reasons, while you are the saint who does it because you are truly converted and stripped of self-pride.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

The historic Christian position is that so-called "works" performed by the reprobate are not acceptable to God, having been born from an UNREGENERATE state. Re-read this five or six times before commenting.

Well then, I hope you will some day have a change of heart so your good works will be acceptable to Him.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You've contradicted yourself again. Earlier you said that one one is truly converted then one WILL WANT TO SERVE OTHERS, etc. And NOW you're saying it's possible that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS ALIVE. See your contradiction...yet?? Better re-read this several times as well.

We all have a conscience, JD. Are you saying that God curses those who follow their conscience unless they somehow hear about Christ? That would be a turnoff.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Almost "Christian" but not quite. Both would be saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH, and faith alone.

Too bad that isn't possible for everyone under your system of beliefs JD, where only the lucky power-ball winners are saved. And the powerball lottery was done before any of us were born.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Oh! When did the "Book of Enoch" BECOME A PART OF THE MORMON "STANDARD WORKS"??? Why should I care what's contained in a spurious Gnostic writing which the ancient church rightly dismissed as "scripture"???

While the Bible does NOT teach a multi-tiered "heaven" where even UNREPENTANT MURDERERS, ET AL GO TO, the Bible DOES teach that works determine the amount of REWARDS or lack thereof for the REDEEMED, it also teaches that works determine the amount of PUNISHMENT, greater or lesser for the REPROBATE, the ****ED.

Good one. I rarely agree with Mos but I can on this one. Perhaps a bit of your Lutheran background is peeking through here to which I say, "AMEN!!"

Ok. So far so good...but what you write next is fraught with error:

The historic Christian position is that so-called "works" performed by the reprobate are not acceptable to God, having been born from an UNREGENERATE state. Re-read this five or six times before commenting.

You've contradicted yourself again. Earlier you said that one one is truly converted that one WILL WANT TO SERVE OTHERS, etc. And NOW you're saying it's possible that there's FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS ALIVE. See your contradiction...yet?? Better re-read this several times as well.

Almost "Christian" but not quite. Both would be saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH, and faith alone.

Never said works weren't "important"...just pointing out the Mormon heresy regarding them. Bottom line in Mormon soteriology?? Works save one along with faith.

Now this idea is nearly "Roman Catholic". You've got works somehow preserving faith...it's the other way around: REAL Faith WILL result in works. If you have no "works", your "faith" was NOT ALIVE BUT A DEAD FAITH THAT CAN SAVE NO ONE.

Sorry, sbt...but you're so confused you affirm one thing one moment, and then affirm the OPPOSITE the next. First you said if one doesn't have "works" that one's faith WILL DIE. But now you say, one doesn't have works, but that doesn't mean "we were no longer saved". Do you think you can keep your story straight for just one moment??

Ah. But you said in so many words that FAITH WAS SUFFICIENT. Now according to you it is NOT: "Ordinances WILL STILL HAVE TO BE PERFORMED...". Therefore the man's faith wasn't ENOUGH. Btw...the Bible does NOT teach "second chance" salvation. When one dies, either that one is IN CHRIST, or is NOT. "It's appointed unto man to die once, and AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT".

IF either were truly "saved" at their death beds, then YES.

See answers above. You have several times contradicted yourself.

Typical Mormon straw-man. Faith and works are INSEPERABLY BOUND. There. You can't say my belief keep them "far apart". It's YOU who thinks that works still somehow JUSTIFY ONE IN GOD'S SIGHT FROM A FORENSIC POINT OF VIEW. I suggest you really read and understand Eph. 2 for starters.

"We love Him because He FIRST loved us..." is what scripture teaches. But YES!!!! Good works increase our rewards FOR THE REDEEMED and seemingly "good" works LESSEN the punishment in HELL FOR THE REPROBATE.

Uh...there might be some hope for you, sbt. Although Mormonism has confused you, you still retain some correct understanding which is NOT MORMON.

Dear Father_JD,

I have NOT contradicted myself. You are reading my comments through the eyes of someone with a fore-drawn conclusion. So you only see what you want to see to support that conclusion.

The very reason Heavenly Father has provided different levels in Heaven is to be just in the day of Judgment. It is interesting you admit there will be increased rewards for some. What are those rewards? If I were to apply the same logic you do to my comments, then I would have to say you have pretty well contradicted your statements as well. Either someone goes to Heaven, or they are ****ed. If they go to Heaven, somehow some individuals receive greater rewards than others. AND, it appears that some individuals can be MORE ****ed than others. How does THAT work???

I have tried to present different degrees of performing good works along with varying circumstances that can affect a person's faith during a lifetime on earth. This is not contradictory. It represents the degree of blessings our Heavenly Father wants to pour upon us.

For you to believe that a person going through hard times and is caught up for awhile in their own problems thereby failing to continue to serve others, means they were never converted and their faith was dead to begin with, is an abominable interpretation of the scriptures. It is also fraught with so much negativism, little room for hope is left for someone unfortunate enough to suffer a life of strife. Where is the incentive to even bother trying?

After seeing this all in writing again, I just become more thankful to be a member of the LDS Church.

God bless,

SavedbyTruth


P.S. I did NOT contradict myself.

[Father_JD]

ROFLOL! Because you SAY you're not contradicting yourself, well then, that's just gotta be the truth, huh?

Typically Mormon: Nuh-uh response you think is a cogent reply. I've shown you just how and when you contradicted yourself.

And although you're convinced you're right, any objective third-party lurker can see just how Mormonism rots the brain.

Thanks for demonstrating the deleterious effects of Mormonism on the Mormon mind...

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD
Good one. I rarely agree with Mos but I can on this one. Perhaps a bit of your Lutheran background is peeking through here to which I say, "AMEN!!"

I grew up LDS. And this has been what I've been taught. By their fruits, ye shall know them. Your problem is that you have to maintain that satan inspires LDS to love our fellowman and serve God for selfish reasons, while you are the saint who does it because you are truly converted and stripped of self-pride.

And? I grew up LDS as well and I know full well what I was taught: One is saved by BOTH Faith and WORKS. And there's NOTHING you or sbt have written that contradicts that FACT. But listen, Satan doesn't give a **** that you're "loving your fellowman" since you are serving an IDOL fashioned from the fetid imagination of your con-artist "prophet" who buried his face in his hat with his magic rock!! And remember this, the Bible says that IDOLATORS DO NOT HAVE A PLACE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
The historic Christian position is that so-called "works" performed by the reprobate are not acceptable to God, having been born from an UNREGENERATE state. Re-read this five or six times before commenting.

Well then, I hope you will some day have a change of heart so your good works will be acceptable to Him.

I'm the one regenerate in the BIBLICAL CHRIST and not your phony spirit-brother-of-Lucifer "jesus" of JS imagination, figgie.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
You've contradicted yourself again. Earlier you said that one one is truly converted then one WILL WANT TO SERVE OTHERS, etc. And NOW you're saying it's possible that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS ALIVE. See your contradiction...yet?? Better re-read this several times as well.

We all have a conscience, JD. Are you saying that God curses those who follow their conscience unless they somehow hear about Christ? That would be a turnoff.

The Bible teaches that by NATURE, we are the CHILDREN OF WRATH. You show you don't understand the first things about the HOLINESS OF GOD.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
Almost "Christian" but not quite. Both would be saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH, and faith alone.

Too bad that isn't possible for everyone under your system of beliefs JD, where only the lucky power-ball winners are saved. And the powerball lottery was done before any of us were born.

Sorry you can't abide what the Bible teaches, figgie...but that's the whole problem of your having had "itching ears...and have turned to FABLES".

Here ya go: Look for your profile in Paul's words...

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whom I will have comp***ion.


Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?


Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Paul says YOU'RE WRONG, figgie.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

SbT,

There is not much hope in ever convincing His Infallibleness Father JD of anything. He is never wrong, and if he is, it is your fault some how.

But through all of his haughtiness and bellicose howling he believes he is excused and even sanctioned by a god which he thinks predetermined to give him an open license to sin and make a mockery of God's perfect justice and mercy. While others are predetermined to go to hell, though their hearts may be 10x more saintly than his.

That's a turnoff.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Sorry you can't abide what the Bible teaches, figgie...but that's the whole problem of your having had "itching ears...and have turned to FABLES".

Here ya go: Look for your profile in Paul's words...

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

But your theology makes God unrighteous, jaydee. Wish you could see that.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whom I will have comp***ion.

That means you are not in the pocket, yet, JD. You better watch your P's and Q's, because there will be a judgment, and you 'aint gonna skip it.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God giveth grace to the humble. 1 Pet 5:5, James 4:6. Hope you learn what that means before it grows too late.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

So what. God knew Pharaoh before he was born. And put him in that position knowing that Pharaoh would make his own choices.

[QUOTE=Father_JD;5862]
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Paul says YOU'RE WRONG, figgie.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James says you're wrong jaydee.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

SbT,

There is not much hope in ever convincing His Infallibleness Father JD of anything. He is never wrong, and if he is, it is your fault some how.

But through all of his haughtiness and bellicose howling he believes he is excused and even sanctioned by a god which he thinks predetermined to give him an open license to sin and make a mockery of God's perfect justice and mercy. While others are predetermined to go to hell, though their hearts may be 10x more saintly than his.

That's a turnoff.

Fig,

I didn't know that Father_JD was LDS at one time. I have known a few people who left the Church. These are some observations of them once they leave, so I don't know if their actions are typical or not.

One young man who had just recently come back from his mission (he happened to be the only member in his family), lost his mother shortly after his mission. He was devastated. He had spoken to his Home Teacher letting him know that his mother was doing poorly. He had expected, and rightly so, that members of the Relief Society should have been visiting his mother to do whatever they could to help her. But only a few Sisters had visited his mother in her home. His mother admitted to him that she had told the Sisters it was not necessary for them to worry about her. She felt strange that members of the Church which she did not belong to should come to offer service to her. She had become ill during the last year of this young man's mission, but he had decided to fulfill his mission even though his Mission President offered to release him.

He is angry because he thinks the Church should have done more for his mother in spite of the fact she had asked them not to. In his anger, his non-LDS friends introduced him to one of the many websites, such as this one. Soon he was questioning everything. He left the Church. When I started speaking to him about this when he first left the Church, he was extremely bitter. He was convinced the Church WAS a cult; and it was everything the anti's claimed. As time has gone by, his anger has begun to subside and admits the anti's did affect him in a very negative way. He has not yet come full circle, but I have hopes he will someday return to the Church.

I tell the entire story because it offers a fairly good representation of the circumstances surrounding this young man's decision to leave the Church.

He is also angry with himself for not coming home when he was offered the chance and was therefore unable to spend more time with his mother. But he is not yet ready to admit that to himself. Instead, he has focused his emotions on other members of the Church. Perhaps the Sisters COULD have insisted on doing more for his mother. But they did not. However, whether they should or should not have done more is not for us to judge. The actions of people are frequently confused with the Church itself. The actions of people do not change what is true. Also, he is very angry with Heavenly Father for not allowing his mother to live longer.

The reason for sharing this story is to point out that when people do leave the Church, they are often very angry. Their anger is frequently due to an issue they have with Heavenly Father about something that has happened in their life, and not necessarily with the question of whether or not the Church is True. This is what I found with the few others I saw leave the Church.

I do not know why Father_JD left the Church. I certainly recognize an unnatural rage when I see it. He can barely control the scathing words he uses when attacking the Church. It boils over into his attacks on us as members of the Church. It is not based within the realm of logical reasoning. So I try to bite my tongue and control my own anger that this stranger would attack me, who does not even know me. Religious matters are filled with emotion, both good and bad, to begin with.

He has made it quite clear he is not interested in true religious debating. His agenda is to mock the LDS as well as the LDS Church. If he was interested in trying to sway us to believe in his new beliefs, he would not use sensationalism, misrepresation, anger, and ripping apart the LDS posters in order to do so. In conclusion, he is not really interested in "saving" us at all. Unless, of course, he thinks the tactics that he uses actually have the capacity to "save" someone.

SavedbyTruth

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

SbT,

There is not much hope in ever convincing His Infallibleness Father JD of anything. He is never wrong, and if he is, it is your fault some how.

But through all of his haughtiness and bellicose howling he believes he is excused and even sanctioned by a god which he thinks predetermined to give him an open license to sin and make a mockery of God's perfect justice and mercy. While others are predetermined to go to hell, though their hearts may be 10x more saintly than his.

That's a turnoff.

I gave a lesson on Apostasy in our Hight Priest cl***, very interesting and enlightening. I hate to say it, but JD actually fits the lesson to a tee. Once having the light of Christ, and then for what ever reason allowing doubt to creep in, speaking evil of the Doctrine, and making light of Joseph Smith in ridicule and mocking, serve one of two masters, the Book of Mormon was replete with those who fell captive to Satan's masterful deceit and trickery. Most apostates usually reject the Authority of our Church Leaders. This is a area the the adversary always aims at, and I have noticed that JD is quick to find fault when the discussion becomes a little hard for him to address, such as Faith and Works. With Biblical Christians they are inclined to reject authority of men, but have given all there commitment to the Word of God, and that only. Rejecting latter day Prophets and closing the Heavens to further revelations. We often find that they unwittingly dictate what God can and can't do. Whoever arrays himself in any manner against the authority which God has placed in His Church for its government, no matter who it is, unless he repents God WILL withdraw His spirit and power from him.

Admittedly Church leaders were "fallible." Only Christ was perfect. "Nevertheless, God has chosen these men." God will judge them. He "does not give the authority to judge and condemn to man, only in the regularly cons***uted councils of the Church; and those who lift their voices and their heels against the authority of the Holy Priesthood, I tell you today, as a servant of God…will go down to hell, unless they repent." Cannon, Church History.

Richard.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Richard

I gave a lesson on Apostasy in our Hight Priest cl***, very interesting and enlightening. I hate to say it, but JD actually fits the lesson to a tee. Once having the light of Christ, and then for what ever reason allowing doubt to creep in, speaking evil of the Doctrine, and making light of Joseph Smith in ridicule and mocking, serve one of two masters, the Book of Mormon was replete with those who fell captive to Satan's masterful deceit and trickery. Most apostates usually reject the Authority of our Church Leaders. This is a area the the adversary always aims at, and I have noticed that JD is quick to find fault when the discussion becomes a little hard for him to address, such as Faith and Works. With Biblical Christians they are inclined to reject authority of men, but have given all there commitment to the Word of God, and that only. Rejecting latter day Prophets and closing the Heavens to further revelations. We often find that they unwittingly dictate what God can and can't do. Whoever arrays himself in any manner against the authority which God has placed in His Church for its government, no matter who it is, unless he repents God WILL withdraw His spirit and power from him.


Richard.

This whole thing just brings me to tears. I would so much rather the entire world would be filled with the joy that is available to them.

SbT

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Richard

I gave a lesson on Apostasy in our Hight Priest cl***, very interesting and enlightening. I hate to say it, but JD actually fits the lesson to a tee. Once having the light of Christ, and then for what ever reason allowing doubt to creep in, speaking evil of the Doctrine, and making light of Joseph Smith in ridicule and mocking, serve one of two masters, the Book of Mormon was replete with those who fell captive to Satan's masterful deceit and trickery. Most apostates usually reject the Authority of our Church Leaders. This is a area the the adversary always aims at, and I have noticed that JD is quick to find fault when the discussion becomes a little hard for him to address, such as Faith and Works. With Biblical Christians they are inclined to reject authority of men, but have given all there commitment to the Word of God, and that only. Rejecting latter day Prophets and closing the Heavens to further revelations. We often find that they unwittingly dictate what God can and can't do. Whoever arrays himself in any manner against the authority which God has placed in His Church for its government, no matter who it is, unless he repents God WILL withdraw His spirit and power from him.

Quite right, Richard. And much like the pages of the Bible which are bound, they also would presume to bind God himself, encapsulating Him into a small package and quoting chapter and verse on the one hand that 'God will save whom He will save', and in the next breath they say that 'God has already saved me because of my profession of faith, but not you.'

It is the height of pride.

2 Pet. 2: 20.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Heb. 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth

This whole thing just brings me to tears. I would so much rather the entire world would be filled with the joy that is available to them.

SbT

It is sad, SbT. Imagine how the prophets of old such as Enoch felt, to see God on His throne weeping for mankind.

29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity?
30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;
31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?
32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;
33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;
34 And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them. (Moses 7:29-34)

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Sorry you can't abide what the Bible teaches, figgie...but that's the whole problem of your having had "itching ears...and have turned to FABLES".

Here ya go: Look for your profile in Paul's words...

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

But your theology makes God unrighteous, jaydee. Wish you could see that.

Wish you could read the Bible IN CONTEXT figgie.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whom I will have comp***ion.

That means you are not in the pocket, yet, JD. You better watch your P's and Q's, because there will be a judgment, and you 'aint gonna skip it.

Your response does not engage the text, figgie. The p***age demonstrates GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY IN WHOM WILL BE SAVED.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God giveth grace to the humble. 1 Pet 5:5, James 4:6. Hope you learn what that means before it grows too late.

Uh, in typical Mormon fashion, you REFUSE to engage the Biblical text which is cited, and instead proffer OTHER scripture you THINK supports Mormon contentions. So NOW engage the above text, figgie in which it's clearly TAUGHT that it's NOT one who WILLS for salvation, NOR one who RUNS after it, but all based upon GOD WHO SHOWS MERCY.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

So what. God knew Pharaoh before he was born. And put him in that position knowing that Pharaoh would make his own choices.

Yes...so? You're missing the point: God's SOVEREIGNTY in appointing Pharaoh as a VESSEL OF WRATH.



Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.


Uh, why not comment, fig? You couldn't make the p***age conform to Mormon dogma?? Why no reply here, figgie??


Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Paul says YOU'RE WRONG, figgie.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James says you're wrong jaydee.

LOL. DISMISS and IGNORE ROMANS and proffer a text you mistakenly THINK supports your contention, figster. What does James 1:13 have to do with the other text?? The text merely states that God doesn't "tempt" one to SIN so just how does this negate or make a cogent reply tot he fact that God allows sinful man to remain in his sins and be the VESSELS FIT FOR DESTRUCTION??

Your answer is nothing but a non-sequitur.

Now, how about REALLY addressing Romans 9 which you failed to do here except to give the typical Mormon "Nuh-uh" reply????

[SavedbyTruth]

Richard,

Sadly, it appears you have hit the nail on the head.

SbT

[Father_JD]

Uh, why is this mutually-congratulatory pats on the back post appended to mine??

LOL. If anyone has "hit the nail on the head" 'tis I who exposes the darkness of Mormonism.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity!

[Father_JD]

I see you're back being hypocritical, figgie, attack the Bible one minute and then cite it in SUPPORT of your contentions thereby tacitly conveying both inerrancy and infallibility to those very verses.

As Richard would say, "Very interesting"!!

[Mesenja]

Of course you don't need to know anything at all about the Book of Mormon FatherJD. Why should you since you already know everything concerning our doctrine by the process of osmosis when sitting on the pew. So can you do NRAJeff and myself both a favour and quit ****ing so much hot air in our direction as we both know the source that it is coming from.

And yes FatherJD we know the process of being born again. It is outlined to us in the Book of Mormon. But of course you don't need to know anything it contains. As you have so eloquently put it "I don't give a flip what your screed tells you,Messdude." Oh and by the way are you going to continue with your immaturity? It appears that you are as you insist on deliberately misspelling my forum nickname.

FatherJD I am demonstrating an error in your knowledge of the Book of Mormon at this very moment as I have demonstrated it in the past and with your track record I am confident I can do so in the future.

You can say what you want FatherJD but I am not "merely paying lip-service to this Biblical doctrine" and neither is NRAJeff. You have been exposed for what you are. Loudly braying for anyone to hear about your expertise in Mormonism but when shown your error your choice is to try and change the subject such as debating the doctrine of free will.

[nrajeff]

A comment about the whole faith "vs." works issue: Perhaps it is just semantics that are being used to create a contradiction that does not exist.
FJD said:
Faith is required.
Works are required.

But St. James seems to say that any faith that lacks accompanying good acts was dead faith and therefore unable to result in saving grace. In other words, REAL, LIVING FAITH (of sufficient strength) in Jesus is all a person needs to be saved. LDS agree with that 100% I think. And if Evangelicals agree with that as well, then we are all united on the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. So we can stop pretending that there is some "wide divide" between us, and we can instead fight over issues where we really, actually don't agree. Like what the correct minimum requirements for being called a Christian are.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Of course you don't need to know anything at all about the Book of Mormon FatherJD. Why should you since you already know everything concerning our doctrine by the process of osmosis when sitting on the pew. So can you do NRAJeff and myself both a favour and quit ****ing so much hot air in our direction as we both know the source that it is coming from.

Bogus scripture results in bogus BELIEFS. As long as you conflate BOM with the Bible, your understanding of the bible will always be SKEWED because this prevents you from reading and understanding the Bible WITHIN ITS OWN CONTEXT. You keep muddying the waters when you do this.

And yes FatherJD we know the process of being born again. It is outlined to us in the Book of Mormon. But of course you don't need to know anything it contains. As you have so eloquently put it "I don't give a flip what your screed tells you,Messdude." Oh and by the way are you going to continue with your immaturity? It appears that you are as you insist on deliberately misspelling my forum nickname.

I won't deign to give validiy to your moniker. You are NO messenger of Jehovah.

FatherJD I am demonstrating an error in your knowledge of the Book of Mormon at this very moment as I have demonstrated it in the past and with your track record I am confident I can do so in the future.

I am demonstrating your error in UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE BY SUPERIMPOSING ALIEN MORMON MEANING ONTO THE BIBLICAL TEXT VIA THE BOM.

You can say what you want FatherJD but I am not "merely paying lip-service to this Biblical doctrine" and neither is NRAJeff. You have been exposed for what you are. Loudly braying for anyone to hear about your expertise in Mormonism but when shown your error your choice is to try and change the subject such as debating the doctrine of free will.

You haven't yet once demonstrated my "error", messy. Dream on.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

A comment about the whole faith "vs." works issue: Perhaps it is just semantics that are being used to create a contradiction that does not exist.
FJD said:
Faith is required.
Works are required.

I did not write that "works are required" in justifying or saving one. I've always maintatined that works are the demonstration that one has a LIVING FAITH. This faith WILL result in works. The works are the "proof", jeff.

But St. James seems to say that any faith that lacks accompanying good acts was faith and therefore unable to result in saving grace. In other words, REAL, LIVING FAITH (of sufficient strength) in Jesus is all a person needs to be saved. LDS agree with that 100% I think. And if Evangelicals agree with that as well, then we are all united on the doctrine of salvation by grave through faith. So we can stop pretending that there is some "wide divide" between us, and we can instead fight over issues where we really, actually don't agree. Like what the correct minimum requirements for being called a Christian are.

So you are convinced but ALL LDS demonstrate the opposite: WORKS DO JUSTIFY AND SAVE ONE IN ADDITION TO ANY "FAITH".

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

[/COLOR]

I did not write that "works are required" in justifying or saving one. I've always maintatined that works are the demonstration that one has a LIVING FAITH. This faith WILL result in works. The works are the "proof", jeff.

So you are convinced but ALL LDS demonstrate the opposite: WORKS DO JUSTIFY AND SAVE ONE IN ADDITION TO ANY "FAITH".

Only to the extent those who do more with their talents and good works, to the best of their ability, will receive a greater award.

Yet people will do as little as possible, and Christ knows what is in their hearts, their reward will not be as great as others.

They are still saved.

SbT

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Bogus scripture results in bogus BELIEFS. As long as you conflate Book Of Mormon with the Bible,your understanding of the Bible will always be SKEWED because this prevents you from reading and understanding the Bible WITHIN ITS OWN CONTEXT. You keep muddying the waters when you do this.

Try picking up the Book of Mormon for once in your life and compare it's doctrines on the process of being spiritually born again to that of the Bible. Then come back and say that it's teachings on the subject are skewed and muddied. Otherwise you are just ****ing hot air in our direction and we all know where that comes from don't we.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

I won't deign to give validity to your moniker. You are NO messenger of Jehovah.

So you deign to give validity to acting like an immature school boy and resort to what is in effect the internet equivalent of name calling?

Originally Posted by Father_JD

I am demonstrating your error in UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE BY SUPERIMPOSING ALIEN MORMON MEANING ONTO THE BIBLICAL TEXT VIA THE Book of Mormon.

You are demonstrating nothing of the kind FatherJD except that your opinion on anything is to be taken over actual knowledge of the subject at hand. All you are doing besides ****ing hot air our way is braying loudly on how I am in error by superimposing alien Mormon meaning onto biblical text via the Book of Mormon. For once in your life pick up both scriptures and show me how I am wrong.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You haven't yet once demonstrated my "error",Mesenja. Dream on.

I have demonstrated your error by showing you that despite your contention to the contrary of our not knowing of the biblical doctrine of being born again the Book of Mormon teaches us that "all mankind,yea men and woman,all nations,kindred,tongues and people,must be born again;yea changed from their carnal and fallen state,to a state of righteousness,being redeemed of God,becoming his sons and daughters."

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Bogus scripture results in bogus BELIEFS. As long as you conflate BOM with the Bible, your understanding of the bible will always be SKEWED because this prevents you from reading and understanding the Bible WITHIN ITS OWN CONTEXT. You keep muddying the waters when you do this.

I won't deign to give validiy to your moniker. You are NO messenger of Jehovah.

I am demonstrating your error in UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE BY SUPERIMPOSING ALIEN MORMON MEANING ONTO THE BIBLICAL TEXT VIA THE BOM.

You haven't yet once demonstrated my "error", messy. Dream on.

I learned the truths in the Bible long before I was introduced to the LDS Church, Russ. Your comments do not have a leg to stand on.

You continue to show who you really are. It is YOU the Bible has warned us about.

To be disrespectful of someone's moniker is representative of your disrespect for truth in general. It exposes you for the type of person you are. YOU are a disrespector of persons. Heavenly Father and Jesus are NOT.

For you to claim you are an expert about Mormonism and then to admit to believe that our scriptures are bogus is proof for the reasons you DON'T teach what the LDS believe. Instead you teach lies about our beliefs in your sick and twisted attempt to hide the truth. If you really thought our teachings were bogus, you would not need to resort to telling lies. Did you catch that? IF YOU REALLY THOUGHT OUR TEACHINGS WERE BOGUS, YOU WOULD NOT NEED TO RESORT TO TELLING LIES. It is satan who controls you Russ. Beware!!! Give him up and return to the Truth and the Light of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

SbT