Can we have a "real" discussion about Joseph Smith and Polygamy?

[maklelan]

Originally Posted by JDErickson

So in this same theme if a woman was sealed to say the Apostle Peter she would have a better chance of going to Heaven?

I'm not interested in entertaining this little fishing expedition. If you have a point then make it. If not, I'll be moving on.

[JDErickson]

Originally Posted by maklelan

I'm not interested in entertaining this little fishing expedition. If you have a point then make it. If not, I'll be moving on.

Sorry I don't fish.

Question is valid. Does Joseph Smith's promoting being sealed to him as a way to shore up a person's lineage and help them go to heaven apply to anyone that has a "better" lineage than another?

Would being sealed to your current Prophet help you get to heaven or shore up your lineage (of course if polygamy was still practiced)?

If not was Joseph Smith's promotion of this doctrine false?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by maklelan

Billyray asks,
"How does being sealed to Joseph Smith help one get into heaven, all else being equal?"

Mak replies,
His lineage was considered so powerful. It would have been like being adopted into Jesus' family.

Does this idea of sealing one person to another prominent leader and somehow having this sealing ordinance improve your chances to get into heaven have any basis in the Bible?

Or is this strictly the idea of Joseph Smith?

[maklelan]

Originally Posted by JDErickson

Sorry I don't fish.

Again, don't insult my intelligence. You're not clever enough yo get away with it.

Originally Posted by JDErickson

Question is valid. Does Joseph Smith's promoting being sealed to him as a way to shore up a person's lineage and help them go to heaven apply to anyone that has a "better" lineage than another?

You've missed the point entirely. It's not about better or worse, but I'm not going to take the time to explain it to you. You're never going to understand, since all you want to do is spew bigotry. I'm done with you.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

You haven't shown this from scripture.

And how do I prove a "negative," M.? How do I prove that God did NOT command polygamy given the absence of such a command?

Do tell us, ok?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by maklelan

I'm not interested in entertaining this little fishing expedition. If you have a point then make it. If not, I'll be moving on.

". . .Be humble and patient in all circumstances of life; we shall then triumph more gloriously. What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one."
LDS History of the Church 6:411 May 1844

Was Joseph Smith telling the truth here, or was this a lie about having only one wife?

[JDErickson]

Originally Posted by maklelan

Again, don't insult my intelligence. You're not clever enough yo get away with it.

If I wanted to insult you then you would have known it.

You've missed the point entirely. It's not about better or worse, but I'm not going to take the time to explain it to you. You're never going to understand, since all you want to do is spew bigotry. I'm done with you.

What bigotry? In my 9 posts please find 1 instance of "bigotry".

If you can't defend yourself without being an *** then you should get out of apologetics.

I'll await your answer or we all can safely ***ume you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Billyray]

MAKLELAN (posted on another board)
"I'm sure I'm just ****ing this way out of proportion, but over on WalterMartin.com I've recently been wasting a ton of time dealing with the same old ****, and I got into a couple discussions with Bob Betts, who several years ago banned me from Concerned Christians. For the past couple weeks he's refused to respond to a number of issues I've been bringing up, making it clear his primary focus was on polygamy and Joseph Smith (apparently no one over there likes dealing with the Bible). In an effort to extend an olive branch I told him I would engage his polygamy argument on one of his threads. An LDS poster on that thread said they would appreciate my input. Yesterday I responded with a rather short and to the point post that seemed to me to expose a rather simple and fundamental flaw in Betts' argumentation. No response from Bob."


1 What is that fundamental flaw that you were speaking about?

2. You stated, "apparently no one over there likes dealing with the Bible". I think that this is quite a statement from someone who makes a challenge about the Bible, then when you are given some easy questions, you refuse to answer them.

[maklelan]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1 What is that fundamental flaw that you were speaking about?

He presupposed that a sealing meant a sexual relationship and traditional marriage.

Originally Posted by Billyray

2. You stated, "apparently no one over there likes dealing with the Bible". I think that this is quite a statement from someone who makes a challenge about the Bible, then when you are given some easy questions, you refuse to answer them.

I wasn't given any sincere questions. I was given weak attempts at leading questions which would turn into ignorant harangues about Mormon doctrine. I'm not explaining this again. You know what you guys were doing as well as I, and it was in clear and direct violation of the conditions I asked you guys to respect. I will answer absolutely any and all questions about the Bible that are not leading questions meant to do nothing but give you a platform to vomit up ignorant bigotry about Mormon doctrine. None of you have shown yourself willing to enter that debate.

[Billyray]

Helen Mar Kimball was 14 years old when she married Joseph Smith. Do you think that this was done for the sole purpose to help her get into heaven?



Helen Mar KIMBALL (AFN: 1FZD-48) Pedigree
Sex: F Family
Event(s)
Birth: 20 Aug 1828 Mendon, Monroe, Ny
Death: 13 Nov 1896 Salt Lake City, S-Lk, Ut

Spouse: Joseph SMITH (AFN: 9KGL-W2) Family
Marriage: May 1843
Smith's Store, Nauvoo, Han****, Il
Reference---->familysearch.org

[maklelan]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Helen Mar Kimball was 14 years old when she married Joseph Smith. Do you think that this was done for the sole purpose to help her get into heaven?



Helen Mar KIMBALL (AFN: 1FZD-48) Pedigree
Sex: F Family
Event(s)
Birth: 20 Aug 1828 Mendon, Monroe, Ny
Death: 13 Nov 1896 Salt Lake City, S-Lk, Ut

Spouse: Joseph SMITH (AFN: 9KGL-W2) Family
Marriage: May 1843
Smith's Store, Nauvoo, Han****, Il
Reference---->familysearch.org

I'm going to post what I originally said about what I'm addressing and you tell me where you've misunderstood. I'll even put it in bold so you don't have any trouble:

Originally Posted by maklelan

This is pretty basic stuff, Bob. Those women went back and lived with their husbands, who were often the people recommending the sealings. Sealing was a way to guarantee inclusion in Smith's lineage, which was considered for much of the early church a sure way to heaven. There's no evidence that any of those women married to other men ever had sexual relations with Smith (third-hand accounts of hazy memories from 75 years after the fact don't count, especially since DNA testing doesn't support the memories), and the fact that their husbands recommended the sealings, were present at the sealings, and then took the women back home with them is a clear indication these weren't traditional polygamous marriages. Keep in mind Joseph Smith was also sealed to several men. You're not going to insist he was gay too, are you? You're just conflating a bunch of material and expressing shock when it doesn't line up with your antagonistic and etic interpretation.

I don't want to hear a different accusation or an insult. You tell me exactly how your post is mistaken or I'm done with you. I'm tired of dealing with this juvenile refusal to take responsibility for the accusations being made.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by maklelan

I don't want to hear a different accusation or an insult. You tell me exactly how your post is mistaken or I'm done with you. I'm tired of dealing with this juvenile refusal to take responsibility for the accusations being made.

Can you point out in my post where I stated that the MARRIAGE between the 14 year old pre teen and Joseph Smith was consummated?

So I take it from your previous posts that Joseph was helping this poor girl out by helping her get to heaven.

Don't you think that a full grown man marrying a 14 year old girl gives the "appearance of evil" even if you are right that he does not consumate the relationship?

1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

". . .Be humble and patient in all circumstances of life; we shall then triumph more gloriously. What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one."
LDS History of the Church 6:411 May 1844

Was Joseph Smith telling the truth here, or was this a lie about having only one wife?

Mak, bump for your answer.

[maklelan]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you point out in my post where I stated that the MARRIAGE between the 14 year old pre teen and Joseph Smith was consummated?

So I take it from your previous posts that Joseph was helping this poor girl out by helping her get to heaven.

Don't you think that a full grown man marrying a 14 year old girl gives the "appearance of evil" even if you are right that he does not consumate the relationship?

1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."

14 year olds got married not infrequently back then, but this whole conversation has been about previously married women being sealed to Joseph Smith. Trying to change the subject to something you feel more comfortable with isn't respectable debate. I'm done with you.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by maklelan

14 year olds got married not infrequently back then, but this whole conversation has been about previously married women being sealed to Joseph Smith. Trying to change the subject to something you feel more comfortable with isn't respectable debate.

The fact that Joseph Smith, a full grown man, married a 14 year old girl does NOT make me feel very comfortable. It creeps me out, just like it does when the FLDS do the same thing today.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So I take it from your previous posts that Joseph was helping this poor girl out by helping her get to heaven.

Don't you think that a full grown man marrying a 14 year old girl gives the "appearance of evil" even if you are right that he does not consumate the relationship?

Helen Mar Kimball was sealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith at the request of Helen's father, Heber C. Kimball. This was because of Heber's desire to be connected to the Prophet in the hereafter. Helen wrote:

My father...taught me the principle of Celestial marriage, & having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth...my father introduced to me this principle & asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph.

This sealing was considered dynastic and after the sealing Helen lived with her parents.

***us 1:15

Doc

~

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Doc

Helen Mars Helen wrote:
. . .My father...he offered me to him;

"he offered me to him" I think says it all.

Originally Posted by Doc

This sealing was considered dynastic and after the sealing Helen lived with her parents.

Sex or no sex, a full grown man marrying a 14 year old is very strange indeed no matter how you cl***ify it.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Billyray

"he offered me to him" I think says it all.


Sex or no sex, a full grown man marrying a 14 year old is very strange indeed no matter how you cl***ify it.

Helen Mar was weeks away from being 15. Not that it matters much.

But yes, I can see how this would seem strange to people today. Especially to people who have never heard of the term "sealing" and those who don't understand what it means, or how it was practiced then and now.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Helen Mar was weeks away from being 15. Not that it matters much.

But yes, I can see how this would seem strange to people today. Especially to people who have never heard of the term "sealing" and those who don't understand what it means, or how it was practiced then and now.

Posters keep trying to change the word marriage to sealing, I guess because it makes it seem OK for him to marry a 14 year old girl.

Let me ask you a question. If you had a 13-14 year old girl, would you take her and let her marry Thomas Monson? If not, why not? Do you think that this would help her get into the Mormon heaven?

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Sealing
"A "sealing," as a generic term, means the securing, determining, or establishment of a bond of legitimacy. Among members of the Church sealing refers to the marriage of a husband and wife and to the joining together of children and parents in relationships that are to endure forever. This special type of sealing of husband and wife in marriage is referred to as "eternal marriage" or "celestial marriage." It contrasts with civil and church marriages, which are ceremonies recognized only by earthly authority and are only for the duration of mortal life."

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Billyray

"he offered me to him" I think says it all.

Sex or no sex, a full grown man marrying a 14 year old is very strange indeed no matter how you cl***ify it.

Billyray, you are suffering from what historians call presentism. In today's day and age someone marrying a 14 year old is indeed very strange. But in the 1800's is was not. For example William Clark (of Lewis and Clark fame) met and married Julia Han****, several years his junior (he was 37), whom he met when she was 12 years old, and he decided he would marry her on her fifteenth birthday. (Biography of William Clark).

The age of consent for a girl to marry under English common law was ten. United States law did not raise the age of consent until the late nineteenth century. In Joseph Smith’s day, the age of consent in most states was still ten. Some states raised it to twelve, and Delaware lowered it to seven!

So while it may seem strange in our present day, it was not strange in Joseph Smith's day.

Doc

~

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Doc

Billyray, you are suffering from what historians call presentism. In today's day and age someone marrying a 14 year old is indeed very strange. But in the 1800's is was not.
Doc

If you have (or had) a 14 year old daughter, would you have any problem with her marrying a 38 year old man (if there were no legal restrictions)?

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you have (or had) a 14 year old daughter, would you have any problem with her marrying a 38 year old man (if there were no legal restrictions)?

If I lived in the 1800's, probably not as that was accepted then. Particularly if she came back to live with us after her sealing to the 38 year old man until she was older as was the case of Helen Mar Kimball.

Doc

~

[nrajeff]

I appreciate your sensible comments, Doc.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Doc

If I lived in the 1800's, probably not as that was accepted then. Particularly if she came back to live with us after her sealing to the 38 year old man until she was older as was the case of Helen Mar Kimball.

Doc

~

I am sure that is how the FLDS fathers feel today when they "offer" their young daughters to full grown men.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

I appreciate your sensible comments, Doc.

Thank you.

Doc

~