Can we have a "real" discussion about Joseph Smith and Polygamy?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Russ, what would YOU say if Jesus came to you and ordered you to do something that you felt in your heart was wrong? What would you say to Jesus?

I'd know it wasn't Jesus who asked me to marry other men's wives.

I'd rebuke that evil spirit in the name of Jesus.

I'd pay attention to Jesus' example with, "It is written...." and "Get behind me, Satan."

[nrajeff]

You didn't answer the question I asked you, Russ. Maybe you answered "the question I SHOULD have asked," but that's not the same thing. Would an honest person evade a question like that?

[Libby]

I think most of us would want to do whatever God asked....but, knowing whether or not it was from God is the tricky part...especially, when you have to make a judgment about someone else's experience (like Joseph Smith)...an experience we can only judge as outsiders, not knowing his true motivations or experiencing whatever he did (or did NOT) experience.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think most of us would want to do whatever God asked....but, knowing whether or not it was from God is the tricky part...especially, when you have to make a judgment about someone else's experience (like Joseph Smith)...an experience we can only judge as outsiders, not knowing his true motivations or experiencing whatever he did (or did NOT) experience.

---But that's a different issue, Libby. Your issue is "If someone claiming to be Jesus appeared to me, how would I know if the claim is true?" so your issue is about verifying it's really Jesus. My question is not at all about that, it's about: How weird a commandment could Jesus give you before you'd say "No, I won't do it, it's too bizarre a thing to ask" ?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---But that's a different issue, Libby. Your issue is "If someone claiming to be Jesus appeared to me, how would I know if the claim is true?" so your issue is about verifying it's really Jesus. My question is not at all about that, it's about: How weird a commandment could Jesus give you before you'd say "No, I won't do it, it's too bizarre a thing to ask" ?

Marrying other men's wives fits that bill.

But we know Jesus wouldn't ask a man to do that.

That's not his nature.

Or, to use the modern vernacular, "It's against his religion."

Hey! I made a funny.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---But that's a different issue, Libby. Your issue is "If someone claiming to be Jesus appeared to me, how would I know if the claim is true?" so your issue is about verifying it's really Jesus. My question is not at all about that, it's about: How weird a commandment could Jesus give you before you'd say "No, I won't do it, it's too bizarre a thing to ask" ?

No, my issue is with whether or not to believe someone who tells me they are "talking to God" and that God told them to marry young girls and already married women. How do I know this person is telling me the truth?

If I have the experience "myself", in that God asks me, personally, to do something "weird", I have a little more insight into it, because it's MY personal experience. If it's someone else's experience, it's a matter of whether or not I can believe them.

Just where would you draw the line on what you believe God would ask someone to do? I was trying to think of something that God asked of someone, in the Bible (something really strange). The best I could come up with was telling Noah to build an ark. HAS God EVER asked someone to "raise up seed" to Him? (And as far as I can tell that wasn't even Joseph's purpose, although that was, supposedly, the main reason God asked him to do such a thing)..

It's all so......"weird" and seemingly perverted. I get a "feeling" about it that it was not from the Holy Spirit.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Libby

It's all so......"weird" and seemingly perverted.

Amen!

I get a "feeling" about it that it was not from the Holy Spirit.

Amen and amen.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, my issue is with whether or not to believe someone who tells me they are "talking to God" and that God told them to marry young girls and already married women. How do I know this person is telling me the truth?

---Okay, so imagine you are in Old-Testament Israel and a man many believe to be a prophet tells you that God wants you to commit genocide on the Amalekites--slaughter their wives and children. How do you know this person is telling you the truth? What will happen to you if you object, make a fuss, and stand up and say "That's too brutal, too unfair to those women and children to be from God" ? Do you have the courage to stand up to him, knowing you will be put to death for "going against the prophet"? Or do you "drink the Kool-Aid" and actually believe, for some reason, that God really told this man this stuff? Why? What makes you "a believer"?

If I have the experience "myself", in that God asks me, personally, to do something "weird", I have a little more insight into it, because it's MY personal experience. If it's someone else's experience, it's a matter of whether or not I can believe them.

---So you don't blame Smith, since he had the experience himself, right? It's just anyone who believes his claims who is being a fool? What then of the Israelites in the story above--they weren't told, personally, to do something heinous, right?

Just where would you draw the line on what you believe God would ask someone to do? I was trying to think of something that God asked of someone, in the Bible (something really strange). The best I could come up with was telling Noah to build an ark.

----Did you forget about "Sacrifice your son, Isaac" ? How about "Wash in the pool 3 times and your leprosy will be gone" ? Or "I command you to eat my flesh and drink my blood"? That sounds pretty weird, you gotta admit.

HAS God EVER asked someone to "raise up seed" to Him?

---Aren't all Christians with children supposed to raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord? (Eph. 6)

It's all so......"weird" and seemingly perverted. I get a "feeling" about it that it was not from the Holy Spirit.

---You could remember a favorite saying of many evangelicals: God's ways are not ours, His are higher than ours, and what we call good and evil might be called the opposite by God.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Okay, so imagine you are in Old-Testament Israel and a man many believe to be a prophet tells you that God wants you to commit genocide on the Amalekites--slaughter their wives and children. How do you know this person is telling you the truth? What will happen to you if you object, make a fuss, and stand up and say "That's too brutal, too unfair to those women and children to be from God" ? Do you have the courage to stand up to him, knowing you will be put to death for "going against the prophet"? Or do you "drink the Kool-Aid" and actually believe, for some reason, that God really told this man this stuff? Why? What makes you "a believer"?

Do you always answer questions with a dozen more questions?

In O.T. days, they still had scriptures and they had established prophets..and the Spirit of the Lord. They had their "standard of truth" just as we do today.

---So you don't blame Smith, since he had the experience himself, right? It's just anyone who believes his claims who is being a fool? What then of the Israelites in the story above--they weren't told, personally, to do something heinous, right?

Honestly? I don't think JS had an experience that told him to marry other men's wives. I think he made it up. I can't believe the true God would tell him to do something like that.

----Did you forget about "Sacrifice your son, Isaac" ? How about "Wash in the pool 3 times and your leprosy will be gone" ? Or "I command you to eat my flesh and drink my blood"? That sounds pretty weird, you gotta admit.

The Abraham and Isaac story was kind of strange...and it definitely took a lot of courage and faith for Abraham to obey God's will for him. But, he wasn't asking other people to sacrifice their sons...this was a private test and it was just between him and God.

The other...washing in a pool (also a private thing) but not really so weird.

---Aren't all Christians with children supposed to raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord? (Eph. 6)

That's not quite the same as God telling someone to take more wives (even other men's wives) to "raise up seed" to him. You gotta admit, there is a lot more "strange" to that, than simply having children with your one and only wife and raising them to believe and worship God.

---You could remember a favorite saying of many evangelicals: God's ways are not ours, His are higher than ours, and what we call good and evil might be called the opposite by God.

Yes, that's generally what Calvinists tell people who refuse to believe the clear scripture in the Bible that says God chooses for salvation. You don't usually "buy that" when it's said to you, about something you can't accept...right?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

[COLOR="Purple"]


---So you don't blame Smith, since he had the experience himself, right? It's just anyone who believes his claims who is being a fool?

Jeff, something tells me that if President Monson came to you with a "revelation" that your wife would no longer be yours, but his, that you may have a weeeee bit of a problem with that.

Perhaps I'm being a weeee bit presumptuous. Would you say, "Yes, prophet, take the mother of my children?"

[nrajeff]

Everyone who claims to believe that God exists, and that God has chosen prophets to relay His will to humanity, has already chosen to follow what those prophets have said, to a greater or lesser degree. If you believe that Moses and Joshua really got their marching orders from God, then you believe that you would have had faith in their orders to go and kill other people's wives and children. You would believe that you were doing God's will by killing when that prophet said to kill. If you personally have a problem with that, it shows that you have less-than-100% faith that the prophet was really getting those orders from God.

What % is your faith, personally?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Everyone who claims to believe that God exists, and that God has chosen prophets to relay His will to humanity, has already chosen to follow what those prophets have said, to a greater or lesser degree. If you believe that Moses and Joshua really got their marching orders from God, then you believe that you would have had faith in their orders to go and kill other people's wives and children. You would believe that you were doing God's will by killing when that prophet said to kill. If you personally have a problem with that, it shows that you have less-than-100% faith that the prophet was really getting those orders from God.

Exactly...which is the whole point. If we're going to follow some, supposed, prophet, don't you think it's a good idea to know for sure that he is a prophet of God?

What % is your faith, personally?

In Joseph? Nearly zero. What is your percentage of faith that he is a prophet?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Everyone who claims to believe that God exists, and that God has chosen prophets to relay His will to humanity, has already chosen to follow what those prophets have said, to a greater or lesser degree. If you believe that Moses and Joshua really got their marching orders from God, then you believe that you would have had faith in their orders to go and kill other people's wives and children. You would believe that you were doing God's will by killing when that prophet said to kill. If you personally have a problem with that, it shows that you have less-than-100% faith that the prophet was really getting those orders from God.

Exactly right on the money. If I was sure it was from God, I'd be a fool to sail away from Nineveh. I'd wind up in the belly of a big fish and be regurgitated on a beach somewhere.

Then I'd wind up on a hillside praying for a little shade and then my prayer would be answered with a plant to give me relief from the sun. And then when the plant withered and died overnight, I too might be found dangerously grumbling against God. (Jonah)

Sometimes I think that you think you're responding to atheists who have no faith to believe. Instead, you're responding to people who do indeed have faith in the God of the Holy Bible. It's just that we know about Joseph's bad fruit and we're certainly not going to follow his lust for other women.

If you're going to follow a prophet, it would behoove you to not follow one who might come to you and tell you that your wife is now his. Such a person is acting on his own. We know this because of the qualifications of a bishop. He should be a godly man with one wife, not 30! And certainly not the wives of other men.

Mormons like to remind us that "You shall know them by their fruit."

Joseph Smith had bad fruit. Rotten fruit. He had a burning in the britches.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Russ

Exactly right on the money.

---As usual.

If I was sure it was from God, I'd be a fool to sail away from Nineveh. I'd wind up in the belly of a big fish and be regurgitated on a beach somewhere.

--Are you saying that Jonah wasn't sure it was God giving him those orders? Or are you saying that Jonah was sure, but he was a false prophet because he disobeyed God's orders? After all, true prophets don't disobey the God who orders them around, right?

Sometimes I think that you think you're responding to atheists who have no faith to believe

----Antis use logic similar to that of many atheists, so we can respond to both using similar logic.

Instead, you're responding to people who do indeed have faith in the God of the Holy Bible.

---So are you admitting that you'd have been one of those followers of Moses and Joshua who gladly chopped and speared those women and children to death, because you wouldn't have wondered whether your leader's orders really were coming from God or not? What would your 100% faith in that man be based on? A feeling?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---As usual.



--Are you saying that Jonah wasn't sure it was God giving him those orders? Or are you saying that Jonah was sure, but he was a false prophet because he disobeyed God's orders? After all, true prophets don't disobey the God who orders them around, right?

----Antis use logic similar to that of many atheists, so we can respond to both using similar logic.



---So are you admitting that you'd have been one of those followers of Moses and Joshua who gladly chopped and speared those women and children to death, because you wouldn't have wondered whether your leader's orders really were coming from God or not? What would your 100% faith in that man be based on? A feeling?

I'm saying that we know Joseph wasn't a prophet based on the observance of his "fruit."

Was it Rodney Dangerfield who quipped, "Take my wife, please?"

Joseph Smith really took that to heart.

Bad fruit.

-Trying to stay with Joseph's polygamy and lust is hard to do when you introduce red herrings.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---As usual.



--Are you saying that Jonah wasn't sure it was God giving him those orders? Or are you saying that Jonah was sure, but he was a false prophet because he disobeyed God's orders? After all, true prophets don't disobey the God who orders them around, right?

----Antis use logic similar to that of many atheists, so we can respond to both using similar logic.



---So are you admitting that you'd have been one of those followers of Moses and Joshua who gladly chopped and speared those women and children to death, because you wouldn't have wondered whether your leader's orders really were coming from God or not? What would your 100% faith in that man be based on? A feeling?

Jeff, may I please have an answer to the following question asked earlier?

What would you say to such a man if he came for your wife and told him that God had ordered it?

I'd tell him to get off my porch because God said that a bishop should be honorable.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Libby

Exactly...which is the whole point. If we're going to follow some, supposed, prophet, don't you think it's a good idea to know for sure that he is a prophet of God?



In Joseph? Nearly zero. What is your percentage of faith that he is a prophet?

Libby, have you yet received an answer to your questions?

Why did Joseph have himself sealed to girls as young as 14?

Why did he marry women that were already married?

Why were these girls/women coerced by telling them that their families' spiritual lives depended on whether or not they married Joseph?

Do you believe there really was a "destroying angel" that would have taken Joseph's life, if certain of these women had not married him?

Stems answer is best summed up as "I don't know." That's honest, I suppose, even though stem knows much more about LDS theology, history and practice than he's letting on.

Jeff's answer appears to be "Because God said."

Other than that, we don't have much to go on.

I'm wondering if LDS are just playing hide the answer.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Russ

Jeff, may I please have an answer to the following question asked earlier?What would you say to such a man if he came for your wife and told him that God had ordered it?

--What if you'd been an OT-era Jew, and a man had shown up at your tent and told you that God had ordered him to tell you to help slaughter Amalekite babies? "I'd tell him to get off my porch"? Or "What's my quota of babies to slaughter, and when do we start?"

[Libby]

It all comes down to whether or not Joseph was a true prophet, yes?

[Father_JD]

God sanctioned polygamy

At one point, yes. Was that God's original intention, messy?

NO. He created Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Eve, and Maria, and Susan, and Nancy.

And although God permitted polygamy in the OT, it is clear that had changed by NT times.

Bottom line? That was THEN. This is NOW.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by mesenja

We don't follow Joseph Smith. From reading your posts this far on the thread I believe that you have a problem with polygamy itself. Why are you so convinced that Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl? I have discussed this with you previously but you seem to take this view despite not taking into consideration any view to the contrary. I have not done an extensive study of the life of Joseph Smith and therefore consider myself not to be an authority on the subject. However from what I have read on his life and from he said I have come away with a very different conclusion then the one you hold of him.

Hi Mesenja..

If you notice, I did tell Seebok that I didn't have a problem with polygamy, per se (at least, not when I first converted)...but I didn't have a very clear picture of what it was really all about. After reading about Joseph's polygamous sealings to already married women and a few young girls, I started having a problem with it. I still do. How do I know he was married to a 14 year old girl? Two 14 year olds, actually. I believe it's a matter of record.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by mesenja

"And Nathan said to David,Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel,I anointed thee king over Israel,and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;And I gave thee thy master's house,and thy master's wives into thy bosom,and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah;and if that had been too little,I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things." 2 Samuel 12:7-8

I see your point, but this was a different time and culture and not really something God "commanded" (to raise up seed), as Joseph Smith claimed for himself. God allowing something and claiming He "commanded" it are two different things.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by mesenja

"And Nathan said to David,Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel,I anointed thee king over Israel,and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;And I gave thee thy master's house,and thy master's wives into thy bosom,and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah;and if that had been too little,I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things." 2 Samuel 12:7-8

Mesenja, polygamy is a horrible, cruel, sinful, disgusting practice.

It was neither commanded nor condoned of God. That's why bishops must be one-woman, blameworthy men who love God and forsake such nonsense.

Nothing good ever comes from polygamy.

Women are built by God with a godly jealousy for their husband.

***uming you're male and married (I don't know), go tell your wife that you just got a "revelation from God" that she is to accept your "revelation" that you're going to marry another woman... or five.

Have fun sleeping by yourself on the couch for the rest of your life.

Just like adultery, divorce and other sins which men commit, God tolerates our injustices.

Polygamy is perversion.

And for the LDS church to have at one time stated that people would do it in "the name of God" is more evidence that your "church" is sick on the inside.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Libby

I see your point, but this was a different time and culture and not really something God "commanded" (to raise up seed), as Joseph Smith claimed for himself. God allowing something and claiming He "commanded" it are two different things.

Zingo bingo.

[nrajeff]

God allowing something and claiming He "commanded" it are two different things.

--Good point. Russ believes that God commanded Israel to commit genocide against the Amalekites, where kids and women were slaughtered mercilessly. Russ can accept that and still sleep at night, but for some reason if that same God commanded plural marriage, all of sudden it's time to be shocked and disgusted. Hmmmm. "Murder okay, but marriage an atrocity: Next week's sermon by Russ. Refreshments will be served." Me likee!