Can we have a "real" discussion about Joseph Smith and Polygamy?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Richard

Russ before you go around shooting off your mouth, read the URL. It addresses that also. What is nice about this FORUM so far, versus CC and CARM, is that I have not been deleted yet for posting a URL from a Apologist site.

Interesting Russ.

Richard.

Richard, do you agree that marrying other mens' wives is "of God?"

Many knew Smith's character for what it was; speaking of men shooting their mouths off. Smith had a certain, how do we say, lust for the fairer sex.

[Richard]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Russ

Richard, do you agree that marrying other mens' wives is "of God?"

Better stated by George Q. Cannon than me:

No woman can enter into the celestial kingdom any more than a man whose will is in opposition to the will of God. When God speaks all must submit to it. It may not be pleasant to us; it may come in conflict with our traditions; it may not be that which will suit us if we had the choosing. There are a great many things which would not suit us if we had the choosing, according to our natural feelings, for these are often far from correct. But whatever feelings we may have which may be the result of tradition and false education, we must get rid of and be willing to do that which God requires at our hands. And it is the experience of the women of this Church who have done that—I speak now of plural marriage, for that is one of the most trying things—those who have submitted to this order, have reached a point where they enjoy true happiness, because in sacrificing their own will they have the consciousness of knowing that they have done the will of God; and in their supplications to Him they can ask Him in confidence for such blessings as they stand in need of. Where is the man or the woman who has been diligent in observing the requirements of God, who has failed upon any point upon which he has sought earnestly to God? If there are any, there must be something lacking, they have not that claim upon God which they would have if they had submitted perfectly to the requirements made of them.

Russ, being obedient to God is paramount to all else. I don't know the details of your above issue, maybe you can enlighten me with the full history behind each of those marriages. Our guest and visitors would like to see examples and reasons given by both sides.

Many knew Smith's character for what it was; speaking of men shooting their mouths off. Smith had a certain, how do we say, lust for the fairer sex.

Being a little judgmental Russ? What you may hope to believe, is not at all provable good buddy. Did you read the article friend. I would invite all guest and visitors to decide, Russ accuses Joseph of being lustful, yet usually that would be followed with some citation, witness, or evidence, otherwise one should be careful how he judges another.

Love ya, Russ.

Richard.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Richard

Being a little judgmental Russ? What you may hope to believe, is not at all provable good buddy. Did you read the article friend. I would invite all guest and visitors to decide, Russ accuses Joseph of being lustful, yet usually that would be followed with some citation, witness, or evidence, otherwise one should be careful how he judges another.

Love ya, Russ.

Richard.

Richard, we all judge. Anytime we say a person is doing something that he ought not do, such as running a red light and smashing into someone else's car, we are making a moral judgement. Jesus himself told us to judge rightly.

Matthew ch. 7 states, "don't judge." That's a verse which is taken grossly out of context. The whole of the chapter is addressed to the hypocrite, not the discerning.

It is self-evident that Smith's actions of marrying other men's wives is disgusting. There was nothing righteous about it. If Smith were around today he'd be in jail with Warren Jeffs.

Richard, again, do you agree that marrying other mens' wives is "of God?"

[Richard]

Jesus himself told us to judge rightly.

Matthew ch. 7 states, "don't judge." That's a verse which is taken grossly out of context. The whole of the chapter is addressed to the hypocrite, not the discerning.

One good way to discern Russ, is to have evidence and facts. So do the right thing and Judge Rightly. Methinks your beam is getting in the way of accuracy.

Richard.

PS, re-read my post, I answered your question.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Richard

Jesus himself told us to judge rightly.

Matthew ch. 7 states, "don't judge." That's a verse which is taken grossly out of context. The whole of the chapter is addressed to the hypocrite, not the discerning.

One good way to discern Russ, is to have evidence and facts. So do the right thing and Judge Rightly. Methinks your beam is getting in the way of accuracy.

Richard.

PS, re-read my post, I answered your question.

I read your post twice before I responded to it, making sure I didn't overlook anything. I read it again just now and I'm still wondering what your answer is to the question "Do you believe marrying other mens' wives if "of God?"

"Scoundrelous" would be my new adjective for such behavior.

Such (ahem) prophets are clearly scoundrelous.

If people only knew the real Joseph and not the one presented by people such as yourself.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Russ

I read your post twice before I responded to it, making sure I didn't overlook anything. I read it again just now and I'm still wondering what your answer is to the question "Do you believe marrying other mens' wives if "of God?"

"Scoundrelous" would be my new adjective for such behavior.

Such (ahem) prophets are clearly scoundrelous.

If people only knew the real Joseph and not the one presented by people such as yourself.

First of all, show me where it was a civil marriage, and not a celestial or sealing marriage.

Facts and evidence please.

Richard.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Richard

First of all, show me where it was a civil marriage, and not a celestial or sealing marriage.

Facts and evidence please.

Richard.

What difference would it make to you? Would you leave the LDS church?

On the off chance that you might recognize the problem:

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org

P.S. Again, do you think it's "of God" that a man should marry another man's wife behind the husband's back?

I'll tell you what I'd do if the pastor of my church was found doing that.

I'd talk to the deacons. The deacons would seek to have him removed from the pulpit. Immediately if not sooner.

If they somehow refused to seek his removal, I'd change churches. Immediately if not sooner.

Why?

Because the pastor was not honoring his wife and his "burning in the britches" would cause me to know that he was more interested in his lusts than his ministry.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Russ

What difference would it make to you? Would you leave the LDS church?

On the off chance that you might recognize the problem:

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org

P.S. Again, do you think it's "of God" that a man should marry another man's wife behind the husband's back?

I'll tell you what I'd do if the pastor of my church was found doing that.

I'd talk to the deacons. The deacons would seek to have him removed from the pulpit. Immediately if not sooner.

If they somehow refused to seek his removal, I'd change churches. Immediately if not sooner.

Why?

Because the pastor was not honoring his wife and his "burning in the britches" would cause me to know that he was more interested in his lusts than his ministry.

Russ, are you enjoying the dark?

The site wives of Joseph site says this:

"Upon Joseph’s death, many of his wives married Brigham Young or Heber C. Kimball and migrated to Utah."

Not a lot is known about the practice of "sealing" in the early days. The historical record is incomplete.

Now, it seems to me that your only perspective goes something like this: "How was sex and scandal involved". And you have proven incapable of any other perspective than that.

And that is why you will always remain in the dark. Good luck.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Russ, are you enjoying the dark?

The site wives of Joseph site says this:

"Upon Joseph’s death, many of his wives married Brigham Young or Heber C. Kimball and migrated to Utah."

Not a lot is known about the practice of "sealing" in the early days. The historical record is incomplete.

Now, it seems to me that your only perspective goes something like this: "How was sex and scandal involved". And you have proven incapable of any other perspective than that.

And that is why you will always remain in the dark. Good luck.

what one fits Russ, or maybe it depends on what time of the moth it is. Interesting.

Richard.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Richard

what one fits Russ, or maybe it depends on what time of the moth it is. Interesting.

Richard.

I'll have to ***ume that since neither you nor Fig have denounced Smith's marrying other mens' wives that you therefore support his actions.

A friendly word of advice.

Stay away from Christian wives.

Their allegiance to their husbands will cause your advances to be front page news.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Russ

I'll have to ***ume that since neither you nor Fig have denounced Smith's marrying other mens' wives that you therefore support his actions.

A friendly word of advice.

Stay away from Christian wives.

Their allegiance to their husbands will cause your advances to be front page news.

Russ, if your wife ever joins the LDS Church, and wishes to be sealed to a worthy husband, it will eventually happen. Whether in life or death. And you will be left alone. Are you sure you want that? If you truly love each other, there is no reason you would not want to be together in the next life.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Russ

I'll have to ***ume that since neither you nor Fig have denounced Smith's marrying other mens' wives that you therefore support his actions.

A friendly word of advice.

Stay away from Christian wives.

Their allegiance to their husbands will cause your advances to be front page news.

Did you ever see the pictures of Brighams wives? The word Charity comes to mind. I'm bad.

Richard.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Russ, if your wife ever joins the LDS Church, and wishes to be sealed to a worthy husband, it will eventually happen. Whether in life or death. And you will be left alone. Are you sure you want that? If you truly love each other, there is no reason you would not want to be together in the next life.

Fig, I just told my wife what you wrote.

She giggled and said: "WHATever!"

That picture was taken on a recent visit to Concerned Christians in Mesa, AZ and it fits her precious "WHATever!" perfectly.

She loves Mormons (such as our former Mormon neighbors), but she'll have nothing to do with becoming a Goddess wife over another planet where she'll "procreate" spirit children along with her other "sister wives."

Looks like ah gotz mahself ah real keeper right there, boyz.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Russ

Fig, I just told my wife what you wrote.

She giggled and said: "WHATever!"

That picture was taken on a recent visit to Concerned Christians in Mesa, AZ and it fits her precious "WHATever!" perfectly.

She loves Mormons (such as our former Mormon neighbors), but she'll have nothing to do with becoming a Goddess wife over another planet where she'll "procreate" spirit children along with her other "sister wives."

Looks like ah gotz mahself ah real keeper right there, boyz.

Do you love her enough to keep her past this life?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Do you love her enough to keep her past this life?

She knows that Jesus is her salvation, not me.

The LDS concept that men will, if they're faithful to LDS covenants, call their wives into heaven by their secret new names is unbiblical, non-Christian and heretical.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Do you love her enough to keep her past this life?

I'm just wondering.

***uming you're married, how does your wife feel about sharing you with her "sister wives" in the LDS hereafter where you'll rule as a God over your own planets?

How does she feel about sharing you with other wives on this planet? (Just in case the LDS prophets receive another "revelation" that polygamy is back in.)

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Richard

Did you ever see the pictures of Brighams wives? The word Charity comes to mind. I'm bad.

Richard.

I'm ***uming that you're alleging that the women were ugly. As if you're God's gift to women?

That's an ugly thing to say about them.

[Trinity]

A man who is married with two, three or more wives is a polygamist. But how we call a woman who married with two husbands? Bigamy? Polyandry?

I think it is polyandry.

Frankly, if Joseph Smith would had taken my wife, he would have his nose broken and possibly a broken arm also. If I was living in this obscure Far West era, I may have to shoot him.

Any man who let his wife go with Smith, was a sissy.

Trinity

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Trinity

A man who is married with two, three or more wives is a polygamist. But how we call a woman who married with two husbands? Bigamy? Polyandry?

I think it is polyandry.

Frankly, if Joseph Smith would had taken my wife, he would have his nose broken and possibly a broken arm also. In this obscure Far West era, I may have to shoot him.

Any man who let his wife go with Smith, was a sissy.

Trinity

Exactly. Where ever Smith went, people told him to get lost. "Prophet" Smith earned his reputation.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Russ

Exactly. Where ever Smith went, people told him to get lost.

---Sounds a lot like the treatment Jesus got in many places He went. I reject the idea that "being told to get lost"--having his teachings rejected or met with hostility--proves that Jesus was a bad person.

[Father_JD]

You really don't quite realize that your equating JS with Jesus is nothing short of blasphemous.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Sounds a lot like the treatment Jesus got in many places He went. I reject the idea that "being told to get lost"--having his teachings rejected or met with hostility--proves that Jesus was a bad person.

Jesus wasn't marrying other men's wives.

Smith was being run out of town after town for very different reasons than Jesus.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You really don't quite realize that your equating JS with Jesus is nothing short of blasphemous.

How so?

Joseph Smith stands next to Jesus Christ as the man having done more for the salvation of mankind in this world than any other person who ever lived, 'save only' Jesus Christ.

It's true. And your failure to see it speaks volumes for you inability to detect light from darkness.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Russ

Jesus wasn't marrying other men's wives.

Smith was being run out of town after town for very different reasons than Jesus.

Joseph Smith was being run outta town from the age of 14. Long before Plural Marriage was ever an issue.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Joseph Smith was being run outta town from the age of 14. Long before Plural Marriage was ever an issue.

Right you are.

Everything from his tall tales, to his occultism to his chasing after other men's wives, to his aberrant religious views, to his political views, people didn't want him in their towns. So they chased him off.

Good for them.