Is Jesus The Only Way To Know God?

[Leslie]

I would say it's madness.

You don't go around claiming to worship a jew who died on a cross for the sins of the world if you didn't really believe that. Paul even remarks that it was scandelous to preach such a thing to jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.

He would have just said "Jesus was a good man who came to show us the right path to righteousness, but was killed before his time. We must follow in his footsteps if we are to become as he was."

That's preaching a works based salvation, which is not about repentence at all, but penence. The prophet Isaiah said that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. The writer of Hebrews says that without the shedding of blood there is NO remission for sin.

So, that's my answer. If you take away the sacrifice, all you're left with is a jewish rabbi who was killed on the cross and is dead, and it would be foolish to worship just another "good teacher" And you would still be left in your sins.

[sunofmysoul]

Originally Posted by Leslie

I would say it's madness.

You don't go around claiming to worship a jew who died on a cross for the sins of the world if you didn't really believe that. Paul even remarks that it was scandelous to preach such a thing to jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.

He would have just said "Jesus was a good man who came to show us the right path to righteousness, but was killed before his time. We must follow in his footsteps if we are to become as he was."

That's preaching a works based salvation, which is not about repentence at all, but penence. The prophet Isaiah said that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. The writer of Hebrews says that without the shedding of blood there is NO remission for sin.

So, that's my answer. If you take away the sacrifice, all you're left with is a jewish rabbi who was killed on the cross and is dead, and it would be foolish to worship just another "good teacher" And you would still be left in your sins.

perhaps...perhaps i have gone off me rocker...
at some point on this journey Leslie...this is exactly what i ran into.
The struggle that this blood sacrifice atones for some...not all...
and were not talkin bout just bald out evil people...but those who have not "heard'...cultures and religions all over the world from the beginning until now.
the select few who happen to "hear" the correct and one and only truth...
get the ticket.
i can't swallow that any more.
for one...i can't take a ticket , i cannot find pleasure in my own salvation, when so many others are lost and dying. and I find it very hard to believe in a God...who has less fairness and comp***ion than a teensy human nothingness like myself.

Call me mad and foolish, but I do love and worship Jesus, without thinking that his blood was a sacrifice...of the sort you mean. I do believe it was the ultimate sacrifice, willingness to give His life that others may become awakened to who God is. He was willing to lay down his entire physical being...and demonstrate with His very life and death the Greatest love of all.
I humbly bow at His feet, and offer my life and service to learn of this great love, and hope to reflect it...with every ounce of my being, at whatever cost it takes.

with love,
soms

[Leslie]

Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.

God has ways of reaching people, he can speak to people personally, he can send angels, or send missionaries. It's to imagine, but the greater number of people are going to go to hell. Jesus said that broad was the path that leads to destruction and many would go therein.

That's why we have to do our best to spread the gospel to as many people as we can. Go out into the highways and the hedges, and spread the good news. Those that are out in the middle of nowhere, God can still reach. Have faith in that.

[bhuvana-mohan dasa]

Originally Posted by Leslie

Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.

........and why do you call "madness" one's preference to view this "shedding of blood" as allegorical expression of sacrifice ("till it hurts") rather than a series of collectively expressed physical processes?

ys,
bmd.

[sayso]

Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

perhaps...perhaps i have gone off me rocker...
at some point on this journey Leslie...this is exactly what i ran into.
The struggle that this blood sacrifice atones for some...not all...
and were not talkin bout just bald out evil people...but those who have not "heard'...cultures and religions all over the world from the beginning until now.
the select few who happen to "hear" the correct and one and only truth...
get the ticket.
i can't swallow that any more.
for one...i can't take a ticket , i cannot find pleasure in my own salvation, when so many others are lost and dying. and I find it very hard to believe in a God...who has less fairness and comp***ion than a teensy human nothingness like myself.

Call me mad and foolish, but I do love and worship Jesus, without thinking that his blood was a sacrifice...of the sort you mean. I do believe it was the ultimate sacrifice, willingness to give His life that others may become awakened to who God is. He was willing to lay down his entire physical being...and demonstrate with His very life and death the Greatest love of all.
I humbly bow at His feet, and offer my life and service to learn of this great love, and hope to reflect it...with every ounce of my being, at whatever cost it takes.

with love,
soms

The problem with your thinking dearest soms is that there has not been nor will there ever be not even one person that does not have the chance to hear and choose for themselves. Even all those who lived and died before Jesus have had this gospel preached to them. There are none who have not heard, nor none who will not hear it.

No true Christian feels good at the thought of others lost and dying, but will our own unbelief and denial of the truth keep them from that fate? It is as Leslie said, we must go out into the highways and byways and compel them to come. We must pray and intercede for them daily.

God is not unjust, unfair or without comp***ion as you have imagined.

Matthew 24:14
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

1 Peter 4:6
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

[sunofmysoul]

Originally Posted by sayso

The problem with your thinking dearest soms is that there has not been nor will there ever be not even one person that does not have the chance to hear and choose for themselves. Even all those who lived and died before Jesus have had this gospel preached to them. There are none who have not heard, nor none who will not hear it.

i agree. I just believe that God has used the various cultures and religions all over the world to do so. Having occasionally to manifest Himself in deeper ways. I would be interested in how you believe this happens though.
(for instance Native americans...before christ , back jungles..., etc.)
when viewing the "ONE and only Version of the TRUTH" with such a scope of elitism..i fear that we are faced with an arrogance, when we readily claim all others "truth"...,holy books, prayers, etc...to be worthless, and evil....
I see Christians say that you must open your heart, be open minded...
(to get away from all the "false" religions and cults...)
but...we ourselves would never be so...."openminded" with their holy books,
and beliefs and prayers, and customs.

No true Christian feels good at the thought of others lost and dying, but will our own unbelief and denial of the truth keep them from that fate? It is as Leslie said, we must go out into the highways and byways and compel them to come. We must pray and intercede for them daily.

i don't just not feel good about it...it is unacceptable.
by all means we must shine a light of love so all may be drawn to the flame...
YES....but what if we see this love...coming from someone of another faith?
what does that mean? how can they have it?
in order to believe that it is christianity ONLY that gives us peace that p***es understanding, the ability to walk in sacrificial love, (God's love)
and be filled with the fruit of the spirit.....
one must walk in cognitive dissonance. one must blind oneself to others.
(the truth) imho.

God is not unjust, unfair or without comp***ion as you have imagined.

not my imagination...my understanding of the exclusitivity (and elitism) of christianity

Matthew 24:14
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

1 Peter 4:6
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

[/quote]
i will say the beginning of my questioning began with verse 1 john 4:7-8

and the question of how good fruit can grow on a rotten tree...or vice versa.


with love,
soms

[sayso]

Soms,

I'm not ignoring you. I will read and consider your answer later. But it may take a little while. I have been up since 1:30 A.M. this morning and didn't get to sleep until around 11:00 P.M. last night. I work in retail and we are working long hours and extra days so I am exhausted. I will reply when I've had the opportunity to catch up on my sleep and pray about it.

[Trinity]

Is Jesus The Only Way To Know God?

There is many ways to know Jesus. We all have a distinctive path that one day, became connected with his own road. The soul and with his unique living background is determining a different path for each individuality. Our acts in our past are determining what we are today, and our today acts will determine what we will be tomorrow. There is a causality also in the spiritual life. There is a synchronicity of some events that conducted my soul to embracing christianity. The question is more precise if we ask if it is possible to know God without Jesus?

The answer is yes. Even John the Baptist was not absolutely certain about Jesus but he believed in God anyway. And Jesus and him were cousins. And since he has doubted about Jesus for a short time this had not undermined his faith in God.

Luke 7:18-20
John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them,
he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?'"


Trinity

[sunofmysoul]

Originally Posted by Trinity

There is many ways to know Jesus. We all have a distinctive path that one day, became connected with his own road. The soul and with his unique living background is determining a different path for each individuality. Our acts in our past are determining what we are today, and our today acts will determine what we will be tomorrow. There is a causality also in the spiritual life. There is a synchronicity of some events that conducted my soul to embracing christianity. The question is more precise if we ask if it is possible to know God without Jesus?

The answer is yes. Even John the Baptist was not absolutely certain about Jesus but he believed in God anyway. And Jesus and him were cousins. And since he has doubted about Jesus for a short time this had not undermined his faith in God.

Luke 7:18-20
John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them,
he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?'"


Trinity

this was worded very interestingly Trinity...
but i would like a bit of further clarification...(if you don't mind..)

to say that we can know God without knowing Jesus...

But can we be "saved" without knowing Jesus...and probably then we would need to define...."saved"

thank you very much for your response,
with love,
soms

[Trinity]

Hello sunofmysoul,

Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

But can we be "saved" without knowing Jesus...and probably then we would need to define...."saved" thank you very much for your response,

I will return the question in a different way.

For all the Jews not converted from the first century, throughout the centuries, and until this day, can we say that they are all lost without any exception, not even one sole exception? Children of the holocaust, parents, grandparents, the victims of the christian anti-semitism, etc?

If yes, now why the christian evangelists are still calling them, "the people of God", and why they are giving of their money to support the State of Israel politically? In brief, why they are so in love with people that God is ****ing.

Like Paul I prefer to say that this is a mystery than to **** any Jew, from any time and from any place and from any condition.

Romans 11:25
I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ.

If this blindness is willingly caused by the master-plan of God , how he can **** them? In brief, I am believing into a fair God, and not into a cruel God.

Trinity

[sunofmysoul]

a collection of quotes of some more emerging type christians. (thoughts to chew on)
The Brian McLaren one, from The Last Battle by cs lewis is one I have brought up before in my own questions...(makes me think i need to read some more McLaren for sure...)
CS Lewis does not present it anywhere as theology, but it does open the mind to at least consider the question...(in a rather beautiful way).



In January 2007 Tony Campolo told the Edmonton Journal (Alberta,Canada) that he is not sure who will go to heaven. Asked by the paper,“Do you believe non-Christians can go to heaven?” Campolo replied: “That’s a good question to ask because the way we stand is we contendthat trusting in Jesus is the way to heaven. However, we do not knowwho Jesus will bring into the kingdom and who He will not. We arevery, very careful about pronouncing judgment on anybody. We leave judgment in the hands of God and we are saying Jesus is the way. Wepreach Jesus, but we have no way of knowing to whom the grace of Godis extended” (“Canada’s Different Evangelicals,” Edmonton Journal, January 27, 2007)


Brian McLaren says, “I don’t think it’s our business to prognosticatethe eternal destinies of anyone else” (A New Kind of Christian, p. 92)and offers a quote from a C.S. Lewis novel as his authority. In this novel Lewis’s character was a soldier who served a false god named Tash all his life, but he was accepted nonetheless by Aslan, *****presents Christ. “Alas, Lord, I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash. Heanswered, Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account ***ervice done to me. ... Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn,though he know it not, and it is I who reward him."


Karen Ward says: “I affirm no other Savior than Jesus Christ, yet at the same time, I feel no need to know with certainty the final destination of those ofother faiths who either have no knowledge of Christ or who do notaccept the Christian claims of the atonement” (Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches, p. 46).


Leonard Sweet says: “One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying theflickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, orKrishna” (Quantum Spirituality, p. 130).


Henri Nouwen, whose writings are constantly referenced by the emerging church and the contemplative movement, said: “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, ALL HUMAN BEINGS CAN WALK THROUGH THAT DOOR, WHETHER THEY KNOW ABOUT JESUS OR NOT. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God” (Sabbatical Journey, New York:Crossroad, 1998, p. 51).


Dallas Willard also holds to this; “I still struggle with how I should view those who have other beliefs. I’m not sure I am ready to condemn them as wrong. I know some very good Buddhists. What is their destiny?” To this he replied: “I am not going to stand in the way of anyone whom God wants to save.I am not going to say he can’t save them. I am happy for God to saveanyone he wants in any way he can. IT IS POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT KNOW JESUS TO BE SAVED. But anyone who is going to be saved isgoing to be saved by Jesus” (“Apologetics in Action,” Cutting Edgemagazine, winter 2001, vol. 5 no. 1, Vineyard USA, http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=14)

[sayso]

Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

a collection of quotes of some more emerging type christians. (thoughts to chew on)
The Brian McLaren one, from The Last Battle by cs lewis is one I have brought up before in my own questions...(makes me think i need to read some more McLaren for sure...)
CS Lewis does not present it anywhere as theology, but it does open the mind to at least consider the question...(in a rather beautiful way).



In January 2007 Tony Campolo told the Edmonton Journal (Alberta,Canada) that he is not sure who will go to heaven. Asked by the paper,“Do you believe non-Christians can go to heaven?” Campolo replied: “That’s a good question to ask because the way we stand is we contendthat trusting in Jesus is the way to heaven. However, we do not knowwho Jesus will bring into the kingdom and who He will not. We arevery, very careful about pronouncing judgment on anybody. We leave judgment in the hands of God and we are saying Jesus is the way. Wepreach Jesus, but we have no way of knowing to whom the grace of Godis extended” (“Canada’s Different Evangelicals,” Edmonton Journal, January 27, 2007)


Brian McLaren says, “I don’t think it’s our business to prognosticatethe eternal destinies of anyone else” (A New Kind of Christian, p. 92)and offers a quote from a C.S. Lewis novel as his authority. In this novel Lewis’s character was a soldier who served a false god named Tash all his life, but he was accepted nonetheless by Aslan, *****presents Christ. “Alas, Lord, I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash. Heanswered, Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account ***ervice done to me. ... Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn,though he know it not, and it is I who reward him."


Karen Ward says: “I affirm no other Savior than Jesus Christ, yet at the same time, I feel no need to know with certainty the final destination of those ofother faiths who either have no knowledge of Christ or who do notaccept the Christian claims of the atonement” (Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches, p. 46).


Leonard Sweet says: “One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying theflickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, orKrishna” (Quantum Spirituality, p. 130).


Henri Nouwen, whose writings are constantly referenced by the emerging church and the contemplative movement, said: “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, ALL HUMAN BEINGS CAN WALK THROUGH THAT DOOR, WHETHER THEY KNOW ABOUT JESUS OR NOT. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God” (Sabbatical Journey, New York:Crossroad, 1998, p. 51).


Dallas Willard also holds to this; “I still struggle with how I should view those who have other beliefs. I’m not sure I am ready to condemn them as wrong. I know some very good Buddhists. What is their destiny?” To this he replied: “I am not going to stand in the way of anyone whom God wants to save.I am not going to say he can’t save them. I am happy for God to saveanyone he wants in any way he can. IT IS POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT KNOW JESUS TO BE SAVED. But anyone who is going to be saved isgoing to be saved by Jesus” (“Apologetics in Action,” Cutting Edgemagazine, winter 2001, vol. 5 no. 1, Vineyard USA, http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=14)

soms,
this post opens a whole other topic, heresy. Many of those you quote here are considered heretics by the body of Christ, because they teach what is false and not what is true; Brian McLaren being one of the worst. The emergent church is another whole discussion. They have re-interpreted scripture to say what they would like it to say instead of what it does say.

Paul said that if even he himself or an angel preached another gospel they are accursed.

Galatians 1
6 I am surprised and astonished that you are so quickly turning renegade and deserting Him Who invited and called you by the grace (unmerited favor) of Christ (the Messiah) [and that you are transferring your allegiance] to a different [even an opposition] gospel.

7 Not that there is [or could be] any other [genuine Gospel], but there are [obviously] some who are troubling and disturbing and bewildering you [with a different kind of teaching which they offer as a gospel] and want to pervert and distort the Gospel of Christ (the Messiah) [into something which it absolutely is not].

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

9 As we said before, so I now say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from or contrary to that which you received [from us], let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

10 Now am I trying to win the favor of men, or of God? Do I seek to please men? If I were still seeking popularity with men, I should not be a bond servant of Christ (the Messiah).

11 For I want you to know, brethren, that the Gospel which was proclaimed and made known by me is not man's gospel [a human invention, according to or patterned after any human standard].

12 For indeed I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through a [direct] revelation [given] by Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by sayso

this post opens a whole other topic, heresy. Many of those you quote here are considered heretics by the body of Christ, because they teach what is false and not what is true; Brian McLaren being one of the worst. The emergent church is another whole discussion. They have re-interpreted scripture to say what they would like it to say instead of what it does say.

The most important thing for a christian is about what should be our at***ude when we consider a teaching a heresy. A heresy is not something that is totally false but something that is twisted or embellished.

When Jesus had met a Samaritan woman they discussed on where to worship God. The best site. On a mountain or at the temple. For the Jews, Samaritans were heretics because they worshiped God like the Fathers (patriarchs), on a mountain. However, the Jews followed the ins***ution founded by Solomon. At the temple.

Both sides were correct according to the sacred texts they were referring too. Anyway, Jesus came with a third way. You should worship God in spirit and within the truth.

Even heretics can believe truthful things. This is why some atheists are more wise and have more wisdom than many christians. I met some men and also some women who were not christians, and they were much better men and women, than many christians that I met (more mature). There is some christians that have not this problem with heresies but they certainly have a problem with their fanatical at***ude. And this is very ugly, this is in a total discordance with the character of Jesus.

Ephesians 4:31
Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior.

James 2:13
For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.

Anyone who feels irritated by my posts or the posts of any other member in this forum is on the wrong track.

Trinity

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Anyone who feels irritated by my posts or the posts of any other member in this forum is on the wrong track.

Trinity

Who judges the heart to know which one is irritated or which one is not?

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by sayso

Who judges the heart to know which one is irritated or which one is not?

...“You“...

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Trinity

...“You“...

Trinity,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. First you write that anyone (indicating me, since you were replying to my post) that is irritated by your post or that of someone else is on the wrong track. You have ***umed that because I disagree with other's posts or yours that I am irritated by those posts and accuse me of being off track.

Next when I ask you who is the judge of another's heart, then you accuse me of judging who is irritated while it is you who made the statement.

I probably can guarantee that I am not going to agree with every post regardless of who posts it. It doesn't bother me nor irritate me, I simply see it another way.

I am sorry that it bothers you for me to believe as I do. If you expect me to agree with everything that everyone posts I think that it is very unlikely, and that I am not going to meet your expectations.

Furthermore, this thread is in the Apologetics (Defending the Faith) forum.

Apologists are those known for taking on the points in arguments, conflicts or positions that are either placed under popular scrutinies or viewed under persecutory examinations. The term comes from the Greek word apologia (απολογία), meaning a speaking in defense.

The term Apologist applies especially to early Christian writers who took on the task of recommending their faith to outsiders.

What would you expect to see happening in the Apologetics forum?

[Trinity]

Hello Sayso,

Originally Posted by sayso

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. First you write that anyone (indicating me, since you were replying to my post) that is irritated by your post or that of someone else is on the wrong track. You have ***umed that because I disagree with other's posts or yours that I am irritated by those posts and accuse me of being off track.

Next when I ask you who is the judge of another's heart, then you accuse me of judging who is irritated while it is you who made the statement.

I had only commented an extract from your post and I did not want to point my finger in your direction. It was a general comment, good for you, for me, and for all.

After, you questioned me about who I think is well positioned to judge the heart, I said that it was you. This is your heart after all. Same thing with me. I have to observe my heart and the emotions produced by this center of the self, particularly the bad heart. The bad heart has this need to be tamed. He is wild. The good heart is inclined naturally to the kindness. We have two hearts. The good heart and the bad heart. The goal is the acquisition of a pure heart.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is full of living power. It is sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are.

Until now I have a good opinion about you and I have no reason to change my mind.

Trinity

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello Sayso,



I had only commented an extract from your post and I did not want to point my finger in your direction. It was a general comment, good for you, for me, and for all.

After, you questioned me about who I think is well positioned to judge the heart, I said that it was you. This is your heart after all. Same thing with me. I have to observe my heart and the emotions produced by this center of the self, particularly the bad heart. The bad heart has this need to be tamed. He is wild. The good heart is inclined naturally to the kindness. We have two hearts. The good heart and the bad heart. The goal is the acquisition of a pure heart.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is full of living power. It is sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are.

Until now I have a good opinion about you and I have no reason to change my mind.

Trinity

I am sorry that I misunderstood you Trinity, please forgive me.

Yes it is my heart but God says "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9

I would rather it be God who judges my heart. I don't trust myself. I, like David have learned to pray, Search me , O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! And see if there is any wicked or hurtful way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Thanks for explaining.

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by sayso

I am sorry that I misunderstood you Trinity, please forgive me.

Yes it is my heart but God says "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9

I would rather it be God who judges my heart. I don't trust myself. I, like David have learned to pray, Search me , O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! And see if there is any wicked or hurtful way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Thanks for explaining.

No problem sayso.

The bad heart is deceitful , but not the good heart. This is why we need to listen our emotions and motivations and discern between the bad heart and the good heart.

Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied, "'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.'

Even if he is twisted our bad heart is tamed to love God. This is our responsibility to love God with our full heart. The bad one who is tamed and the good one who is containing the spark of God into the human being.

It is impossible to love God with all our heart if we do not trust our heart. This is an important part of the spirituality to monitor our inner man.

A pure heart is a heart with no bad heart anymore. The good heart will ***imilated the bad heart to become a pure heart. God can not do this without our participation. This is why we have to monitor our negative emotions or bad motivations.

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.

Trinity

[dave52_47]

Originally Posted by Trinity

The most important thing for a christian is about what should be our at***ude when we consider a teaching a heresy. A heresy is not something that is totally false but something that is twisted or embellished.

When Jesus had met a Samaritan woman they discussed on where to worship God. The best site. On a mountain or at the temple. For the Jews, Samaritans were heretics because they worshiped God like the Fathers (patriarchs), on a mountain. However, the Jews followed the ins***ution founded by Solomon. At the temple.

Both sides were correct according to the sacred texts they were referring too. Anyway, Jesus came with a third way. You should worship God in spirit and within the truth.

Even heretics can believe truthful things. This is why some atheists are more wise and have more wisdom than many christians. I met some men and also some women who were not christians, and they were much better men and women, than many christians that I met (more mature). There is some christians that have not this problem with heresies but they certainly have a problem with their fanatical at***ude. And this is very ugly, this is in a total discordance with the character of Jesus.

Ephesians 4:31
Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior.

James 2:13
For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.

Anyone who feels irritated by my posts or the posts of any other member in this forum is on the wrong track.

Trinity

I would have to agree with sayso on the point about the teachings of the Emergent Church. I have researched this subject and read their books and discussed issues with them on another Apologetics Forum and because of their teachings I was compelled to write an 18 page article for my website (which I'm not sure I can post here but it can be found in the CP under my profile) because of what I was discovering. In fact it became the introductory article in a series that I wrote called "The Unveiling of the Apostasy?", which took a year to research and write, concerning the influences that this group and others are having on the Church today.

You might object to the use of the term 'heresy', and many people do, but the Bible itself does not equivocate on the subject of exposing these false teachings, and neither did the Early Church Fathers, like Irenaeus, when the Gnostic heresies tried to overtake the Church-when they arose in the Church. Sometimes harsh words are used in condemning them, even by Jesus Christ, but we are warned that false prophets would come and infiltrate the Church and we in turn are told to warn others about the dangers of being led astray by false teachings-even within the Church.

Why do I consider the 'Emergents' that you have listed as perpetuating false teachings. All you have to do is compare their teachings with Scripture. For instance they preach the "Gospel of the Kingdom" in which we are to focus on how we conduct ourselves and how we must conquer the ills of society to establish this 'Kingdom'. The 'gospel of the kingdom' was preached when Jesus was here and it was rejected. Had it been accepted we would not be having this discussion.

The "gospel of Jesus Christ" is the gospel we preach since Jesus went to the Cross. It is most most clearly expressed in I Cor. 15:1-6:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;

8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

That is the gospel in all it's simplicity: "Christ crucified, dead, and risen." This is what Romans 10:9-10 speak of as the way of righteousness and salvation.

Anything else preached is another gospel as has been pointed out in scriptures already posted on this thread. To not warn of heresies in the days approaching the return of Christ when Paul said:"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, .." 2 Thess 2:3, would be utterly tragic and irresponsible on the part of the church and the individual Christian today.

Many of these new movements have incorporated into worship the Monastic practices of the medieval Church which was itself already deteriorating into apostasy. Practices such as breath prayer, centering prayer, lectio divina, labyrinth journeys, icons, and all kinds of meditative techniques whose source is eastern mysticism, not Christ.

One needs to be discerning, and yes, there are heretical teachings and practices being introduced (and always have been since the Apostles dealt with Judaizers and early forms of Gnosticism) into the Church whether we want to acknowledge it or not. Yes, the heretics will include some truths mixed in with the overall false message. Remeber the demons know the truth of who God is "and they shudder' the Bible says. So they could teach you that God exists, and Jesus exists, but they are not going to tell you how you can be saved. They might tell you how to live a life that looks "Christian" and even tell you to look at Jesus as a great "way shower ' or teacher, or miracle worker. BUT, they will not tell you what Paul told us in the verses above - the message of the 'saving gospel'

It is not unloving to lead someone out of darkness and into the arms of the Savior. If they don't know they are following false teachings they can't be helped unless they see the contrasting light of The "Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Dave

[sayso]

It is not unloving to lead someone out of darkness and into the arms of the Savior. If they don't know they are following false teachings they can't be helped unless they see the contrasting light of The "Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Dave

Thank you Dave.

[Trinity]

Hello Dave,

Originally Posted by dave52_47

You might object to the use of the term 'heresy', and many people do,...

I never mentioned that I had a problem with the terminology, and I know what is the meaning of this word.

However, we are always the heretic of someone else, and dependently to the group we are adhering (ex: protestants are the heretics of the catholics, and vice and versa). I was not talking about the epistemology of the word, but about the state of mind that we can have when we are composing with those that we are perceiving as heretics.

Actions without love are meaningless, and love without actions consists of emptiness. There is a truth but a truth pushed and imposed with violence is not the truth. It is a distortion of the truth. Any evil thought, lame verbalism, presented with the truth is not serving the truth anymore. This is serving our ego or our bad heart.

There is no excuse about any thought motivated by our pride, about disguised insults, or any quarrel with anyone. This is why we should tame our bad heart and monitor our inner man. The truth cannot be exposed without self-discipline.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.

Galatians 5:22-23
But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.

The truth is not intellectual only. This is visceral. This truth should be radiant.

Trinity

[sunofmysoul]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello Dave,



I never mentioned that I had a problem with the terminology, and I know what is the meaning of this word.

However, we are always the heretic of someone else, and dependently to the group we are adhering (ex: protestants are the heretics of the catholics, and vice and versa). I was not talking about the epistemology of the word, but about the state of mind that we can have when we are composing with those that we are perceiving as heretics.

Actions without love are meaningless, and love without actions consists of emptiness. There is a truth but a truth pushed and imposed with violence is not the truth. It is a distortion of the truth. Any evil thought, lame verbalism, presented with the truth is not serving the truth anymore. This is serving our ego or our bad heart.

There is no excuse about any thought motivated by our pride, about disguised insults, or any quarrel with anyone. This is why we should tame our bad heart and monitor our inner man. The truth cannot be exposed without self-discipline.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.

Galatians 5:22-23
But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.

The truth is not intellectual only. This is visceral. This truth should be radiant.

Trinity

well said Trinity...
(i would "rep" you...but must spread it around... )
thank you....

something i wrote recently when really struggling with...truth...and how it "becomes clouded" by our sometimes good intentions....

In defending the truth, we so often pursue means that become distortions. We become so determined that we lose our own way. We begin to rationalize that our "way" to defend the truth is okay, for we are defending the truth! Even when this "way" , dissolves into deceit, anger, impatience, cowardice, meanness, harshness, out of control, even hatred, even lying.

It is at this point, we have lost sight of the truth we are so eager to defend. And our defense of the truth, fails miserably. For instead we point others far away from the truth, making it impossible for them to see even a glimpse of it, behind the darkness of smoke and shadows we have created.

One thing about the truth, we forget. It is a simple thing and yet profound. Truth stands alone.
It shines brightly. It speaks to the heart. It needs not a "defense". Instead, it is reflected better when we let it shine through us, by our actions, our life. And when we stop trying by ill means to so defend it, we realize that we ourselves have but a glimpse of it. And would make better use of our time
by trying to see more of it ourselves. To continue ever to journey in the path of it...learning as we go.
That at last at some far off distance we shall begin to behold the essence and no longer need the reflections.

with love,
soms

[sunofmysoul]

okay...here are a list of verses..from a friend (euty) .that also got my brain originally churning with questions....and i really appreciate anyone willing to discuss them with me...


"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).



1. 1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved - Can His will be thwarted?
2. 1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth - Will His desire come to p***, or is it a WEAK WISH?
3. 1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is….testified in due time - Are we judging God before due time?
4. Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save all - Will He succeed, or FAIL?
5. Eph 1:11-God works all after the counsel of His will - Can our will overcome His?
6. Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world - Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
7. 1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Savior of the world - Why don't we BELIEVE it?
8. Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself - To burn or to love?
9. Col 1:16-By Him all were created - Will He lose a part of His creation?
10. Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live - The same ALL?
11. 1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live - Again, the same ALL?
12. Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fulness of times - Are YOU tired of seeing the word, ALL?
13. Phil 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord - Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14. 1Cor 12:3-Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit - See what I mean?
15. Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved - But most Jews don't believe yet!
16. Acts 3:20, 21-Res***ution of all - How plain can you get?
17. Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people - Is there joy in Satan's "hell"?
18. Heb 8:11, 12-All will know God - How long will you tarry, O Lord?
19. Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come - Have we judged Him before the coming age?
20. ***us 2:11-Grace has appeared to all - Experientially or Prophetically?
21. Rm 8:19-21-Creation set at liberty - How much of creation? After those who have the firstfruits of the spirit?
22. Col 1:20-All reconciled unto God - There's that word "ALL" again.
23. 1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God - What for?
24. Jms 5:11-End of the Lord is full of mercy - Is eternal "hell" merciful?
25. Rev 15:4-All nations worship when God's judgments are seen - Could His judgment be mercy?
26. Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all - All?
27. Rm 11:36-All out of, through, and into Him - ALL into Him?
28. Eph 4:10-Jesus will fill all things - does this include "hell?"
29. Rev 5:13-All creation seen praising God - Including Satan? All creation!
30. 1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all - What does that mean?
31. Rev 21:4, 5-No more tears, all things made new - ALL made new? Or few? Are you crying still?
32. Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live - How many will hear?
33. Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth - How will the "righteous" Judge, judge?
34. 1 Cor 3:15-All saved so as by fire - How can FIRE save you?
35. Mk 9:49-Everyone shall be salted with fire - Including you?
36. Rm 11:15-Reconciliation of the world - Will fire save?
37. 2Cor 5:15-Jesus died for ALL - Did He die in vain?
38. Jn 8:29-Jesus always does what pleases His Father - What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
39. Heb 1:2-Jesus is Heir of all things - Does "things" include people? YES.
40. Jn 17:2-Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him - How many did the Father give Him?
41. Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things - (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things".
42. 1 Tim 4:9-11-Jesus is Savior of all - Can't seem to get away from that word "all."
43. Heb. 7:25-Jesus is able to save to the uttermost - How far is "uttermost?"
44. 1Cor 15:26-Last enemy, death, will be destroyed - In the "lake of fire" which is the "second" death. No more dying (Rev 21:4, Isa. 25:8 )?
45. Is 46:10-God will do all His pleasure - Does Old Testament agree with the New?
46. Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed - Here comes that word "all" again.
47. Dan 4:35-God's will done in heaven and earth - What can defeat His will?
48. Ps 66:3, 4-Enemies will submit to God - Can any stay rebellious?
49. Ps 90:3-God turns man to destruction, and then says return - How can one return from "destruction"? Humbled, bruised and ashamed?
50. Is 25:7-Will destroy veil spread over all nations - All nations?
51. Deut 32:39-He kills and makes alive - Kills to bring life?
52. Ps 33:15-God fashions all hearts - "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler"?
53. Prv 16:9-Man devises, God directs his steps - What about "free will"?
54. Prv 19:21-Man devises, but God's counsel stands - So much for "free will."
55. La 3:31, 32-God will not cast off forever - Why does He cast off in the first place?
56. Is 2:2-All nations shall flow to the Lord's house - ALL nations?
57. Ps 86:9-All nations will worship Him - ALL nations!
58. Is 45:23-All descendants of Israel justified - Including the wicked ones?
59. Ps 138:4-All kings will praise God - Are you catching on?
60. Ps 65:2-4-All flesh will come to God - That sounds wondrous.
61. Ps 72:18-God only does wondrous things - I wish we would BELIEVE that.
62. Isa 19:14, 15-Egypt & ***yria will be restored - Really?
63. Ezk 16:55-Sodom will be restored to former estate - Sounds impossible.
64. Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him - Nothing? No, nothing!
65. Ps 22:27-All ends of the earth will turn to Him - For what purpose?
66. Ps 22:27-All families will worship before Him - Praise His name!
67. Ps 145:9-He is good to all - Including your worst enemies.
68. Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works - Let's start believing that.
69. Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall - Who hasn't sinned?
70. Ps 145:10-All His works will praise Him - For "eternal torment"?
71. Is 25:6-Lord makes a feast for all people - And you are invited.
72. Jer 32:35-Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire.- This came from the carnal mind, NOT SPIRITUAL.
73. Jn 6:44-No one can come to Him unless He draws (drag) them. - You can't "choose" to follow Him, SELF-DETERMINATION.
74. Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself - Amen!
75. Ps 135:6-God does what pleases Him - If it PLEASES Him to SAVE ALL that He might be in all, are you upset?

[dave52_47]

Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

okay...here are a list of verses..from a friend (euty) .that also got my brain originally churning with questions....and I really appreciate anyone willing to discuss them with me...

1. 1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved - Can His will be thwarted?
2. 1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth - Will His desire come to p***, or is it a WEAK WISH?
3. 1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is….testified in due time - Are we judging God before due time?
4. Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save all - Will He succeed, or FAIL?
5. Eph 1:11-God works all after the counsel of His will - Can our will overcome His?
6. Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world - Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
7. 1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Savior of the world - Why don't we BELIEVE it?
8. Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself - To burn or to love?
9. Col 1:16-By Him all were created - Will He lose a part of His creation?
10. Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live - The same ALL?
11. 1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live - Again, the same ALL?
12. Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fulness of times - Are YOU tired of seeing the word, ALL?
13. Phil 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord - Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14. 1Cor 12:3-Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit - See what I mean?
15. Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved - But most Jews don't believe yet!
16. Acts 3:20, 21-Res***ution of all - How plain can you get?
17. Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people - Is there joy in Satan's "hell"?
18. Heb 8:11, 12-All will know God - How long will you tarry, O Lord?
19. Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come - Have we judged Him before the coming age?
20. ***us 2:11-Grace has appeared to all - Experientially or Prophetically?
21. Rm 8:19-21-Creation set at liberty - How much of creation? After those who have the firstfruits of the spirit?
22. Col 1:20-All reconciled unto God - There's that word "ALL" again.
23. 1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God - What for?
24. Jms 5:11-End of the Lord is full of mercy - Is eternal "hell" merciful?
25. Rev 15:4-All nations worship when God's judgments are seen - Could His judgment be mercy?
26. Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all - All?
27. Rm 11:36-All out of, through, and into Him - ALL into Him?
28. Eph 4:10-Jesus will fill all things - does this include "hell?"
29. Rev 5:13-All creation seen praising God - Including Satan? All creation!
30. 1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all - What does that mean?
31. Rev 21:4, 5-No more tears, all things made new - ALL made new? Or few? Are you crying still?
32. Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live - How many will hear?
33. Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth - How will the "righteous" Judge, judge?
34. 1 Cor 3:15-All saved so as by fire - How can FIRE save you?
35. Mk 9:49-Everyone shall be salted with fire - Including you?
36. Rm 11:15-Reconciliation of the world - Will fire save?
37. 2Cor 5:15-Jesus died for ALL - Did He die in vain?
38. Jn 8:29-Jesus always does what pleases His Father - What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
39. Heb 1:2-Jesus is Heir of all things - Does "things" include people? YES.
40. Jn 17:2-Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him - How many did the Father give Him?
41. Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things - (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things".
42. 1 Tim 4:9-11-Jesus is Savior of all - Can't seem to get away from that word "all."
43. Heb. 7:25-Jesus is able to save to the uttermost - How far is "uttermost?"
44. 1Cor 15:26-Last enemy, death, will be destroyed - In the "lake of fire" which is the "second" death. No more dying (Rev 21:4, Isa. 25:8 )?
45. Is 46:10-God will do all His pleasure - Does Old Testament agree with the New?
46. Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed - Here comes that word "all" again.
47. Dan 4:35-God's will done in heaven and earth - What can defeat His will?
48. Ps 66:3, 4-Enemies will submit to God - Can any stay rebellious?
49. Ps 90:3-God turns man to destruction, and then says return - How can one return from "destruction"? Humbled, bruised and ashamed?
50. Is 25:7-Will destroy veil spread over all nations - All nations?
51. Deut 32:39-He kills and makes alive - Kills to bring life?
52. Ps 33:15-God fashions all hearts - "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler"?
53. Prv 16:9-Man devises, God directs his steps - What about "free will"?
54. Prv 19:21-Man devises, but God's counsel stands - So much for "free will."
55. La 3:31, 32-God will not cast off forever - Why does He cast off in the first place?
56. Is 2:2-All nations shall flow to the Lord's house - ALL nations?
57. Ps 86:9-All nations will worship Him - ALL nations!
58. Is 45:23-All descendants of Israel justified - Including the wicked ones?
59. Ps 138:4-All kings will praise God - Are you catching on?
60. Ps 65:2-4-All flesh will come to God - That sounds wondrous.
61. Ps 72:18-God only does wondrous things - I wish we would BELIEVE that.
62. Isa 19:14, 15-Egypt & ***yria will be restored - Really?
63. Ezk 16:55-Sodom will be restored to former estate - Sounds impossible.
64. Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him - Nothing? No, nothing!
65. Ps 22:27-All ends of the earth will turn to Him - For what purpose?
66. Ps 22:27-All families will worship before Him - Praise His name!
67. Ps 145:9-He is good to all - Including your worst enemies.
68. Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works - Let's start believing that.
69. Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall - Who hasn't sinned?
70. Ps 145:10-All His works will praise Him - For "eternal torment"?
71. Is 25:6-Lord makes a feast for all people - And you are invited.
72. Jer 32:35-Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire.- This came from the carnal mind, NOT SPIRITUAL.
73. Jn 6:44-No one can come to Him unless He draws (drag) them. - You can't "choose" to follow Him, SELF-DETERMINATION.
74. Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself - Amen!
75. Ps 135:6-God does what pleases Him - If it PLEASES Him to SAVE ALL that He might be in all, are you upset?

soms,
Ok, I'll take the bait.

First of all... say hi to Euty for me. I know him from CARM-He will remember me.
Secondly---some of these are not relevant to this thread. (but could be answered on a thread of your design.)
Thirdly...many of the questions being raised afterward are not even alluded to in the verses that are quoted. There are many pieces of verses but no immediate, or even larger context, to evaluate your claims against.

A case in point:
31.Rev 21:4, 5-No more tears, all things made new - ALL made new? Or few? Are you crying still?

Yes I am still crying-because this verse has nothing to do with the present. In context it has to do with God wiping away every tear of those who have heeded His call to be reconciled unto him through His Son and have at that time entered into the eternal state with Him. Here is the immediate context:

Rev. 21:1-5--
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth p***ed away, and there is no longer any sea.

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have p***ed away."

5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."

The context is given and now you can see that the question has nothing to do with now. You have not experienced a "new heaven and a new earth" being created. I know I haven't. God has not promised that all things would be resolved in our earthly lifetime.

Here's another:
13. Phil 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord - Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?

This does not teach salvation for all. This is a reference to all recognizing who Jesus is. They will bow to Him because they will understand that he is God, regardless of whether or not they believe in Him as the Savior-they will know it but have already rejected God's offer of reconciliation through Jesus. In the context of the p***age this is in the future.

There are many more but I really think the best way to do this is don't ask Euty's questions-ask yours-unless you are saying that you agree with his rendering of the contents of these verses. I would be glad to answer any and all of your questions-and I'm sure others would, too. Maybe if you broke these 75 questions down into separate categories. There are many repe***ions so there probably aren't really that many questions-but this would be extremely time consuming for those of us who would like to dialogue with you on these subjects. And, as I said, some are not relevant to this thread. So that would narrow the list down considerably. Sound reasonable?

Dave