Is Jesus The Only Way To Know God?

[sunofmysoul]

Originally Posted by sayso

The problem with your thinking dearest soms is that there has not been nor will there ever be not even one person that does not have the chance to hear and choose for themselves. Even all those who lived and died before Jesus have had this gospel preached to them. There are none who have not heard, nor none who will not hear it.

i agree. I just believe that God has used the various cultures and religions all over the world to do so. Having occasionally to manifest Himself in deeper ways. I would be interested in how you believe this happens though.
(for instance Native americans...before christ , back jungles..., etc.)
when viewing the "ONE and only Version of the TRUTH" with such a scope of elitism..i fear that we are faced with an arrogance, when we readily claim all others "truth"...,holy books, prayers, etc...to be worthless, and evil....
I see Christians say that you must open your heart, be open minded...
(to get away from all the "false" religions and cults...)
but...we ourselves would never be so...."openminded" with their holy books,
and beliefs and prayers, and customs.

No true Christian feels good at the thought of others lost and dying, but will our own unbelief and denial of the truth keep them from that fate? It is as Leslie said, we must go out into the highways and byways and compel them to come. We must pray and intercede for them daily.

i don't just not feel good about it...it is unacceptable.
by all means we must shine a light of love so all may be drawn to the flame...
YES....but what if we see this love...coming from someone of another faith?
what does that mean? how can they have it?
in order to believe that it is christianity ONLY that gives us peace that p***es understanding, the ability to walk in sacrificial love, (God's love)
and be filled with the fruit of the spirit.....
one must walk in cognitive dissonance. one must blind oneself to others.
(the truth) imho.

God is not unjust, unfair or without comp***ion as you have imagined.

not my imagination...my understanding of the exclusitivity (and elitism) of christianity

Matthew 24:14
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

1 Peter 4:6
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

[/quote]
i will say the beginning of my questioning began with verse 1 john 4:7-8

and the question of how good fruit can grow on a rotten tree...or vice versa.


with love,
soms

[sayso]

Soms,

I'm not ignoring you. I will read and consider your answer later. But it may take a little while. I have been up since 1:30 A.M. this morning and didn't get to sleep until around 11:00 P.M. last night. I work in retail and we are working long hours and extra days so I am exhausted. I will reply when I've had the opportunity to catch up on my sleep and pray about it.

[Trinity]

Is Jesus The Only Way To Know God?

There is many ways to know Jesus. We all have a distinctive path that one day, became connected with his own road. The soul and with his unique living background is determining a different path for each individuality. Our acts in our past are determining what we are today, and our today acts will determine what we will be tomorrow. There is a causality also in the spiritual life. There is a synchronicity of some events that conducted my soul to embracing christianity. The question is more precise if we ask if it is possible to know God without Jesus?

The answer is yes. Even John the Baptist was not absolutely certain about Jesus but he believed in God anyway. And Jesus and him were cousins. And since he has doubted about Jesus for a short time this had not undermined his faith in God.

Luke 7:18-20
John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them,
he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?'"


Trinity

[sunofmysoul]

Originally Posted by Trinity

There is many ways to know Jesus. We all have a distinctive path that one day, became connected with his own road. The soul and with his unique living background is determining a different path for each individuality. Our acts in our past are determining what we are today, and our today acts will determine what we will be tomorrow. There is a causality also in the spiritual life. There is a synchronicity of some events that conducted my soul to embracing christianity. The question is more precise if we ask if it is possible to know God without Jesus?

The answer is yes. Even John the Baptist was not absolutely certain about Jesus but he believed in God anyway. And Jesus and him were cousins. And since he has doubted about Jesus for a short time this had not undermined his faith in God.

Luke 7:18-20
John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them,
he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?'"


Trinity

this was worded very interestingly Trinity...
but i would like a bit of further clarification...(if you don't mind..)

to say that we can know God without knowing Jesus...

But can we be "saved" without knowing Jesus...and probably then we would need to define...."saved"

thank you very much for your response,
with love,
soms

[Trinity]

Hello sunofmysoul,

Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

But can we be "saved" without knowing Jesus...and probably then we would need to define...."saved" thank you very much for your response,

I will return the question in a different way.

For all the Jews not converted from the first century, throughout the centuries, and until this day, can we say that they are all lost without any exception, not even one sole exception? Children of the holocaust, parents, grandparents, the victims of the christian anti-semitism, etc?

If yes, now why the christian evangelists are still calling them, "the people of God", and why they are giving of their money to support the State of Israel politically? In brief, why they are so in love with people that God is ****ing.

Like Paul I prefer to say that this is a mystery than to **** any Jew, from any time and from any place and from any condition.

Romans 11:25
I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ.

If this blindness is willingly caused by the master-plan of God , how he can **** them? In brief, I am believing into a fair God, and not into a cruel God.

Trinity

[sunofmysoul]

a collection of quotes of some more emerging type christians. (thoughts to chew on)
The Brian McLaren one, from The Last Battle by cs lewis is one I have brought up before in my own questions...(makes me think i need to read some more McLaren for sure...)
CS Lewis does not present it anywhere as theology, but it does open the mind to at least consider the question...(in a rather beautiful way).



In January 2007 Tony Campolo told the Edmonton Journal (Alberta,Canada) that he is not sure who will go to heaven. Asked by the paper,“Do you believe non-Christians can go to heaven?” Campolo replied: “That’s a good question to ask because the way we stand is we contendthat trusting in Jesus is the way to heaven. However, we do not knowwho Jesus will bring into the kingdom and who He will not. We arevery, very careful about pronouncing judgment on anybody. We leave judgment in the hands of God and we are saying Jesus is the way. Wepreach Jesus, but we have no way of knowing to whom the grace of Godis extended” (“Canada’s Different Evangelicals,” Edmonton Journal, January 27, 2007)


Brian McLaren says, “I don’t think it’s our business to prognosticatethe eternal destinies of anyone else” (A New Kind of Christian, p. 92)and offers a quote from a C.S. Lewis novel as his authority. In this novel Lewis’s character was a soldier who served a false god named Tash all his life, but he was accepted nonetheless by Aslan, *****presents Christ. “Alas, Lord, I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash. Heanswered, Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account ***ervice done to me. ... Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn,though he know it not, and it is I who reward him."


Karen Ward says: “I affirm no other Savior than Jesus Christ, yet at the same time, I feel no need to know with certainty the final destination of those ofother faiths who either have no knowledge of Christ or who do notaccept the Christian claims of the atonement” (Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches, p. 46).


Leonard Sweet says: “One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying theflickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, orKrishna” (Quantum Spirituality, p. 130).


Henri Nouwen, whose writings are constantly referenced by the emerging church and the contemplative movement, said: “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, ALL HUMAN BEINGS CAN WALK THROUGH THAT DOOR, WHETHER THEY KNOW ABOUT JESUS OR NOT. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God” (Sabbatical Journey, New York:Crossroad, 1998, p. 51).


Dallas Willard also holds to this; “I still struggle with how I should view those who have other beliefs. I’m not sure I am ready to condemn them as wrong. I know some very good Buddhists. What is their destiny?” To this he replied: “I am not going to stand in the way of anyone whom God wants to save.I am not going to say he can’t save them. I am happy for God to saveanyone he wants in any way he can. IT IS POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT KNOW JESUS TO BE SAVED. But anyone who is going to be saved isgoing to be saved by Jesus” (“Apologetics in Action,” Cutting Edgemagazine, winter 2001, vol. 5 no. 1, Vineyard USA, http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=14)

[sayso]

Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

a collection of quotes of some more emerging type christians. (thoughts to chew on)
The Brian McLaren one, from The Last Battle by cs lewis is one I have brought up before in my own questions...(makes me think i need to read some more McLaren for sure...)
CS Lewis does not present it anywhere as theology, but it does open the mind to at least consider the question...(in a rather beautiful way).



In January 2007 Tony Campolo told the Edmonton Journal (Alberta,Canada) that he is not sure who will go to heaven. Asked by the paper,“Do you believe non-Christians can go to heaven?” Campolo replied: “That’s a good question to ask because the way we stand is we contendthat trusting in Jesus is the way to heaven. However, we do not knowwho Jesus will bring into the kingdom and who He will not. We arevery, very careful about pronouncing judgment on anybody. We leave judgment in the hands of God and we are saying Jesus is the way. Wepreach Jesus, but we have no way of knowing to whom the grace of Godis extended” (“Canada’s Different Evangelicals,” Edmonton Journal, January 27, 2007)


Brian McLaren says, “I don’t think it’s our business to prognosticatethe eternal destinies of anyone else” (A New Kind of Christian, p. 92)and offers a quote from a C.S. Lewis novel as his authority. In this novel Lewis’s character was a soldier who served a false god named Tash all his life, but he was accepted nonetheless by Aslan, *****presents Christ. “Alas, Lord, I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash. Heanswered, Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account ***ervice done to me. ... Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn,though he know it not, and it is I who reward him."


Karen Ward says: “I affirm no other Savior than Jesus Christ, yet at the same time, I feel no need to know with certainty the final destination of those ofother faiths who either have no knowledge of Christ or who do notaccept the Christian claims of the atonement” (Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches, p. 46).


Leonard Sweet says: “One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying theflickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, orKrishna” (Quantum Spirituality, p. 130).


Henri Nouwen, whose writings are constantly referenced by the emerging church and the contemplative movement, said: “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, ALL HUMAN BEINGS CAN WALK THROUGH THAT DOOR, WHETHER THEY KNOW ABOUT JESUS OR NOT. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God” (Sabbatical Journey, New York:Crossroad, 1998, p. 51).


Dallas Willard also holds to this; “I still struggle with how I should view those who have other beliefs. I’m not sure I am ready to condemn them as wrong. I know some very good Buddhists. What is their destiny?” To this he replied: “I am not going to stand in the way of anyone whom God wants to save.I am not going to say he can’t save them. I am happy for God to saveanyone he wants in any way he can. IT IS POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT KNOW JESUS TO BE SAVED. But anyone who is going to be saved isgoing to be saved by Jesus” (“Apologetics in Action,” Cutting Edgemagazine, winter 2001, vol. 5 no. 1, Vineyard USA, http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=14)

soms,
this post opens a whole other topic, heresy. Many of those you quote here are considered heretics by the body of Christ, because they teach what is false and not what is true; Brian McLaren being one of the worst. The emergent church is another whole discussion. They have re-interpreted scripture to say what they would like it to say instead of what it does say.

Paul said that if even he himself or an angel preached another gospel they are accursed.

Galatians 1
6 I am surprised and astonished that you are so quickly turning renegade and deserting Him Who invited and called you by the grace (unmerited favor) of Christ (the Messiah) [and that you are transferring your allegiance] to a different [even an opposition] gospel.

7 Not that there is [or could be] any other [genuine Gospel], but there are [obviously] some who are troubling and disturbing and bewildering you [with a different kind of teaching which they offer as a gospel] and want to pervert and distort the Gospel of Christ (the Messiah) [into something which it absolutely is not].

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

9 As we said before, so I now say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from or contrary to that which you received [from us], let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

10 Now am I trying to win the favor of men, or of God? Do I seek to please men? If I were still seeking popularity with men, I should not be a bond servant of Christ (the Messiah).

11 For I want you to know, brethren, that the Gospel which was proclaimed and made known by me is not man's gospel [a human invention, according to or patterned after any human standard].

12 For indeed I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through a [direct] revelation [given] by Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by sayso

this post opens a whole other topic, heresy. Many of those you quote here are considered heretics by the body of Christ, because they teach what is false and not what is true; Brian McLaren being one of the worst. The emergent church is another whole discussion. They have re-interpreted scripture to say what they would like it to say instead of what it does say.

The most important thing for a christian is about what should be our at***ude when we consider a teaching a heresy. A heresy is not something that is totally false but something that is twisted or embellished.

When Jesus had met a Samaritan woman they discussed on where to worship God. The best site. On a mountain or at the temple. For the Jews, Samaritans were heretics because they worshiped God like the Fathers (patriarchs), on a mountain. However, the Jews followed the ins***ution founded by Solomon. At the temple.

Both sides were correct according to the sacred texts they were referring too. Anyway, Jesus came with a third way. You should worship God in spirit and within the truth.

Even heretics can believe truthful things. This is why some atheists are more wise and have more wisdom than many christians. I met some men and also some women who were not christians, and they were much better men and women, than many christians that I met (more mature). There is some christians that have not this problem with heresies but they certainly have a problem with their fanatical at***ude. And this is very ugly, this is in a total discordance with the character of Jesus.

Ephesians 4:31
Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior.

James 2:13
For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.

Anyone who feels irritated by my posts or the posts of any other member in this forum is on the wrong track.

Trinity

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Anyone who feels irritated by my posts or the posts of any other member in this forum is on the wrong track.

Trinity

Who judges the heart to know which one is irritated or which one is not?

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by sayso

Who judges the heart to know which one is irritated or which one is not?

...“You“...

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Trinity

...“You“...

Trinity,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. First you write that anyone (indicating me, since you were replying to my post) that is irritated by your post or that of someone else is on the wrong track. You have ***umed that because I disagree with other's posts or yours that I am irritated by those posts and accuse me of being off track.

Next when I ask you who is the judge of another's heart, then you accuse me of judging who is irritated while it is you who made the statement.

I probably can guarantee that I am not going to agree with every post regardless of who posts it. It doesn't bother me nor irritate me, I simply see it another way.

I am sorry that it bothers you for me to believe as I do. If you expect me to agree with everything that everyone posts I think that it is very unlikely, and that I am not going to meet your expectations.

Furthermore, this thread is in the Apologetics (Defending the Faith) forum.

Apologists are those known for taking on the points in arguments, conflicts or positions that are either placed under popular scrutinies or viewed under persecutory examinations. The term comes from the Greek word apologia (απολογία), meaning a speaking in defense.

The term Apologist applies especially to early Christian writers who took on the task of recommending their faith to outsiders.

What would you expect to see happening in the Apologetics forum?

[Trinity]

Hello Sayso,

Originally Posted by sayso

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. First you write that anyone (indicating me, since you were replying to my post) that is irritated by your post or that of someone else is on the wrong track. You have ***umed that because I disagree with other's posts or yours that I am irritated by those posts and accuse me of being off track.

Next when I ask you who is the judge of another's heart, then you accuse me of judging who is irritated while it is you who made the statement.

I had only commented an extract from your post and I did not want to point my finger in your direction. It was a general comment, good for you, for me, and for all.

After, you questioned me about who I think is well positioned to judge the heart, I said that it was you. This is your heart after all. Same thing with me. I have to observe my heart and the emotions produced by this center of the self, particularly the bad heart. The bad heart has this need to be tamed. He is wild. The good heart is inclined naturally to the kindness. We have two hearts. The good heart and the bad heart. The goal is the acquisition of a pure heart.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is full of living power. It is sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are.

Until now I have a good opinion about you and I have no reason to change my mind.

Trinity

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello Sayso,



I had only commented an extract from your post and I did not want to point my finger in your direction. It was a general comment, good for you, for me, and for all.

After, you questioned me about who I think is well positioned to judge the heart, I said that it was you. This is your heart after all. Same thing with me. I have to observe my heart and the emotions produced by this center of the self, particularly the bad heart. The bad heart has this need to be tamed. He is wild. The good heart is inclined naturally to the kindness. We have two hearts. The good heart and the bad heart. The goal is the acquisition of a pure heart.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is full of living power. It is sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are.

Until now I have a good opinion about you and I have no reason to change my mind.

Trinity

I am sorry that I misunderstood you Trinity, please forgive me.

Yes it is my heart but God says "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9

I would rather it be God who judges my heart. I don't trust myself. I, like David have learned to pray, Search me , O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! And see if there is any wicked or hurtful way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Thanks for explaining.

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by sayso

I am sorry that I misunderstood you Trinity, please forgive me.

Yes it is my heart but God says "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9

I would rather it be God who judges my heart. I don't trust myself. I, like David have learned to pray, Search me , O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! And see if there is any wicked or hurtful way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Thanks for explaining.

No problem sayso.

The bad heart is deceitful , but not the good heart. This is why we need to listen our emotions and motivations and discern between the bad heart and the good heart.

Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied, "'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.'

Even if he is twisted our bad heart is tamed to love God. This is our responsibility to love God with our full heart. The bad one who is tamed and the good one who is containing the spark of God into the human being.

It is impossible to love God with all our heart if we do not trust our heart. This is an important part of the spirituality to monitor our inner man.

A pure heart is a heart with no bad heart anymore. The good heart will ***imilated the bad heart to become a pure heart. God can not do this without our participation. This is why we have to monitor our negative emotions or bad motivations.

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.

Trinity

[dave52_47]

Originally Posted by Trinity

The most important thing for a christian is about what should be our at***ude when we consider a teaching a heresy. A heresy is not something that is totally false but something that is twisted or embellished.

When Jesus had met a Samaritan woman they discussed on where to worship God. The best site. On a mountain or at the temple. For the Jews, Samaritans were heretics because they worshiped God like the Fathers (patriarchs), on a mountain. However, the Jews followed the ins***ution founded by Solomon. At the temple.

Both sides were correct according to the sacred texts they were referring too. Anyway, Jesus came with a third way. You should worship God in spirit and within the truth.

Even heretics can believe truthful things. This is why some atheists are more wise and have more wisdom than many christians. I met some men and also some women who were not christians, and they were much better men and women, than many christians that I met (more mature). There is some christians that have not this problem with heresies but they certainly have a problem with their fanatical at***ude. And this is very ugly, this is in a total discordance with the character of Jesus.

Ephesians 4:31
Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior.

James 2:13
For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.

Anyone who feels irritated by my posts or the posts of any other member in this forum is on the wrong track.

Trinity

I would have to agree with sayso on the point about the teachings of the Emergent Church. I have researched this subject and read their books and discussed issues with them on another Apologetics Forum and because of their teachings I was compelled to write an 18 page article for my website (which I'm not sure I can post here but it can be found in the CP under my profile) because of what I was discovering. In fact it became the introductory article in a series that I wrote called "The Unveiling of the Apostasy?", which took a year to research and write, concerning the influences that this group and others are having on the Church today.

You might object to the use of the term 'heresy', and many people do, but the Bible itself does not equivocate on the subject of exposing these false teachings, and neither did the Early Church Fathers, like Irenaeus, when the Gnostic heresies tried to overtake the Church-when they arose in the Church. Sometimes harsh words are used in condemning them, even by Jesus Christ, but we are warned that false prophets would come and infiltrate the Church and we in turn are told to warn others about the dangers of being led astray by false teachings-even within the Church.

Why do I consider the 'Emergents' that you have listed as perpetuating false teachings. All you have to do is compare their teachings with Scripture. For instance they preach the "Gospel of the Kingdom" in which we are to focus on how we conduct ourselves and how we must conquer the ills of society to establish this 'Kingdom'. The 'gospel of the kingdom' was preached when Jesus was here and it was rejected. Had it been accepted we would not be having this discussion.

The "gospel of Jesus Christ" is the gospel we preach since Jesus went to the Cross. It is most most clearly expressed in I Cor. 15:1-6:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;

8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

That is the gospel in all it's simplicity: "Christ crucified, dead, and risen." This is what Romans 10:9-10 speak of as the way of righteousness and salvation.

Anything else preached is another gospel as has been pointed out in scriptures already posted on this thread. To not warn of heresies in the days approaching the return of Christ when Paul said:"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, .." 2 Thess 2:3, would be utterly tragic and irresponsible on the part of the church and the individual Christian today.

Many of these new movements have incorporated into worship the Monastic practices of the medieval Church which was itself already deteriorating into apostasy. Practices such as breath prayer, centering prayer, lectio divina, labyrinth journeys, icons, and all kinds of meditative techniques whose source is eastern mysticism, not Christ.

One needs to be discerning, and yes, there are heretical teachings and practices being introduced (and always have been since the Apostles dealt with Judaizers and early forms of Gnosticism) into the Church whether we want to acknowledge it or not. Yes, the heretics will include some truths mixed in with the overall false message. Remeber the demons know the truth of who God is "and they shudder' the Bible says. So they could teach you that God exists, and Jesus exists, but they are not going to tell you how you can be saved. They might tell you how to live a life that looks "Christian" and even tell you to look at Jesus as a great "way shower ' or teacher, or miracle worker. BUT, they will not tell you what Paul told us in the verses above - the message of the 'saving gospel'

It is not unloving to lead someone out of darkness and into the arms of the Savior. If they don't know they are following false teachings they can't be helped unless they see the contrasting light of The "Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Dave

[sayso]

It is not unloving to lead someone out of darkness and into the arms of the Savior. If they don't know they are following false teachings they can't be helped unless they see the contrasting light of The "Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Dave

Thank you Dave.

[Trinity]

Hello Dave,

Originally Posted by dave52_47

You might object to the use of the term 'heresy', and many people do,...

I never mentioned that I had a problem with the terminology, and I know what is the meaning of this word.

However, we are always the heretic of someone else, and dependently to the group we are adhering (ex: protestants are the heretics of the catholics, and vice and versa). I was not talking about the epistemology of the word, but about the state of mind that we can have when we are composing with those that we are perceiving as heretics.

Actions without love are meaningless, and love without actions consists of emptiness. There is a truth but a truth pushed and imposed with violence is not the truth. It is a distortion of the truth. Any evil thought, lame verbalism, presented with the truth is not serving the truth anymore. This is serving our ego or our bad heart.

There is no excuse about any thought motivated by our pride, about disguised insults, or any quarrel with anyone. This is why we should tame our bad heart and monitor our inner man. The truth cannot be exposed without self-discipline.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.

Galatians 5:22-23
But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.

The truth is not intellectual only. This is visceral. This truth should be radiant.

Trinity

[sunofmysoul]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello Dave,



I never mentioned that I had a problem with the terminology, and I know what is the meaning of this word.

However, we are always the heretic of someone else, and dependently to the group we are adhering (ex: protestants are the heretics of the catholics, and vice and versa). I was not talking about the epistemology of the word, but about the state of mind that we can have when we are composing with those that we are perceiving as heretics.

Actions without love are meaningless, and love without actions consists of emptiness. There is a truth but a truth pushed and imposed with violence is not the truth. It is a distortion of the truth. Any evil thought, lame verbalism, presented with the truth is not serving the truth anymore. This is serving our ego or our bad heart.

There is no excuse about any thought motivated by our pride, about disguised insults, or any quarrel with anyone. This is why we should tame our bad heart and monitor our inner man. The truth cannot be exposed without self-discipline.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.

Galatians 5:22-23
But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.

The truth is not intellectual only. This is visceral. This truth should be radiant.

Trinity

well said Trinity...
(i would "rep" you...but must spread it around... )
thank you....

something i wrote recently when really struggling with...truth...and how it "becomes clouded" by our sometimes good intentions....

In defending the truth, we so often pursue means that become distortions. We become so determined that we lose our own way. We begin to rationalize that our "way" to defend the truth is okay, for we are defending the truth! Even when this "way" , dissolves into deceit, anger, impatience, cowardice, meanness, harshness, out of control, even hatred, even lying.

It is at this point, we have lost sight of the truth we are so eager to defend. And our defense of the truth, fails miserably. For instead we point others far away from the truth, making it impossible for them to see even a glimpse of it, behind the darkness of smoke and shadows we have created.

One thing about the truth, we forget. It is a simple thing and yet profound. Truth stands alone.
It shines brightly. It speaks to the heart. It needs not a "defense". Instead, it is reflected better when we let it shine through us, by our actions, our life. And when we stop trying by ill means to so defend it, we realize that we ourselves have but a glimpse of it. And would make better use of our time
by trying to see more of it ourselves. To continue ever to journey in the path of it...learning as we go.
That at last at some far off distance we shall begin to behold the essence and no longer need the reflections.

with love,
soms

[sunofmysoul]

okay...here are a list of verses..from a friend (euty) .that also got my brain originally churning with questions....and i really appreciate anyone willing to discuss them with me...


"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).



1. 1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved - Can His will be thwarted?
2. 1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth - Will His desire come to p***, or is it a WEAK WISH?
3. 1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is….testified in due time - Are we judging God before due time?
4. Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save all - Will He succeed, or FAIL?
5. Eph 1:11-God works all after the counsel of His will - Can our will overcome His?
6. Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world - Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
7. 1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Savior of the world - Why don't we BELIEVE it?
8. Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself - To burn or to love?
9. Col 1:16-By Him all were created - Will He lose a part of His creation?
10. Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live - The same ALL?
11. 1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live - Again, the same ALL?
12. Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fulness of times - Are YOU tired of seeing the word, ALL?
13. Phil 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord - Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14. 1Cor 12:3-Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit - See what I mean?
15. Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved - But most Jews don't believe yet!
16. Acts 3:20, 21-Res***ution of all - How plain can you get?
17. Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people - Is there joy in Satan's "hell"?
18. Heb 8:11, 12-All will know God - How long will you tarry, O Lord?
19. Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come - Have we judged Him before the coming age?
20. ***us 2:11-Grace has appeared to all - Experientially or Prophetically?
21. Rm 8:19-21-Creation set at liberty - How much of creation? After those who have the firstfruits of the spirit?
22. Col 1:20-All reconciled unto God - There's that word "ALL" again.
23. 1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God - What for?
24. Jms 5:11-End of the Lord is full of mercy - Is eternal "hell" merciful?
25. Rev 15:4-All nations worship when God's judgments are seen - Could His judgment be mercy?
26. Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all - All?
27. Rm 11:36-All out of, through, and into Him - ALL into Him?
28. Eph 4:10-Jesus will fill all things - does this include "hell?"
29. Rev 5:13-All creation seen praising God - Including Satan? All creation!
30. 1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all - What does that mean?
31. Rev 21:4, 5-No more tears, all things made new - ALL made new? Or few? Are you crying still?
32. Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live - How many will hear?
33. Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth - How will the "righteous" Judge, judge?
34. 1 Cor 3:15-All saved so as by fire - How can FIRE save you?
35. Mk 9:49-Everyone shall be salted with fire - Including you?
36. Rm 11:15-Reconciliation of the world - Will fire save?
37. 2Cor 5:15-Jesus died for ALL - Did He die in vain?
38. Jn 8:29-Jesus always does what pleases His Father - What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
39. Heb 1:2-Jesus is Heir of all things - Does "things" include people? YES.
40. Jn 17:2-Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him - How many did the Father give Him?
41. Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things - (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things".
42. 1 Tim 4:9-11-Jesus is Savior of all - Can't seem to get away from that word "all."
43. Heb. 7:25-Jesus is able to save to the uttermost - How far is "uttermost?"
44. 1Cor 15:26-Last enemy, death, will be destroyed - In the "lake of fire" which is the "second" death. No more dying (Rev 21:4, Isa. 25:8 )?
45. Is 46:10-God will do all His pleasure - Does Old Testament agree with the New?
46. Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed - Here comes that word "all" again.
47. Dan 4:35-God's will done in heaven and earth - What can defeat His will?
48. Ps 66:3, 4-Enemies will submit to God - Can any stay rebellious?
49. Ps 90:3-God turns man to destruction, and then says return - How can one return from "destruction"? Humbled, bruised and ashamed?
50. Is 25:7-Will destroy veil spread over all nations - All nations?
51. Deut 32:39-He kills and makes alive - Kills to bring life?
52. Ps 33:15-God fashions all hearts - "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler"?
53. Prv 16:9-Man devises, God directs his steps - What about "free will"?
54. Prv 19:21-Man devises, but God's counsel stands - So much for "free will."
55. La 3:31, 32-God will not cast off forever - Why does He cast off in the first place?
56. Is 2:2-All nations shall flow to the Lord's house - ALL nations?
57. Ps 86:9-All nations will worship Him - ALL nations!
58. Is 45:23-All descendants of Israel justified - Including the wicked ones?
59. Ps 138:4-All kings will praise God - Are you catching on?
60. Ps 65:2-4-All flesh will come to God - That sounds wondrous.
61. Ps 72:18-God only does wondrous things - I wish we would BELIEVE that.
62. Isa 19:14, 15-Egypt & ***yria will be restored - Really?
63. Ezk 16:55-Sodom will be restored to former estate - Sounds impossible.
64. Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him - Nothing? No, nothing!
65. Ps 22:27-All ends of the earth will turn to Him - For what purpose?
66. Ps 22:27-All families will worship before Him - Praise His name!
67. Ps 145:9-He is good to all - Including your worst enemies.
68. Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works - Let's start believing that.
69. Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall - Who hasn't sinned?
70. Ps 145:10-All His works will praise Him - For "eternal torment"?
71. Is 25:6-Lord makes a feast for all people - And you are invited.
72. Jer 32:35-Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire.- This came from the carnal mind, NOT SPIRITUAL.
73. Jn 6:44-No one can come to Him unless He draws (drag) them. - You can't "choose" to follow Him, SELF-DETERMINATION.
74. Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself - Amen!
75. Ps 135:6-God does what pleases Him - If it PLEASES Him to SAVE ALL that He might be in all, are you upset?

[dave52_47]

Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

okay...here are a list of verses..from a friend (euty) .that also got my brain originally churning with questions....and I really appreciate anyone willing to discuss them with me...

1. 1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved - Can His will be thwarted?
2. 1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth - Will His desire come to p***, or is it a WEAK WISH?
3. 1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is….testified in due time - Are we judging God before due time?
4. Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save all - Will He succeed, or FAIL?
5. Eph 1:11-God works all after the counsel of His will - Can our will overcome His?
6. Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world - Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
7. 1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Savior of the world - Why don't we BELIEVE it?
8. Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself - To burn or to love?
9. Col 1:16-By Him all were created - Will He lose a part of His creation?
10. Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live - The same ALL?
11. 1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live - Again, the same ALL?
12. Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fulness of times - Are YOU tired of seeing the word, ALL?
13. Phil 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord - Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14. 1Cor 12:3-Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit - See what I mean?
15. Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved - But most Jews don't believe yet!
16. Acts 3:20, 21-Res***ution of all - How plain can you get?
17. Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people - Is there joy in Satan's "hell"?
18. Heb 8:11, 12-All will know God - How long will you tarry, O Lord?
19. Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come - Have we judged Him before the coming age?
20. ***us 2:11-Grace has appeared to all - Experientially or Prophetically?
21. Rm 8:19-21-Creation set at liberty - How much of creation? After those who have the firstfruits of the spirit?
22. Col 1:20-All reconciled unto God - There's that word "ALL" again.
23. 1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God - What for?
24. Jms 5:11-End of the Lord is full of mercy - Is eternal "hell" merciful?
25. Rev 15:4-All nations worship when God's judgments are seen - Could His judgment be mercy?
26. Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all - All?
27. Rm 11:36-All out of, through, and into Him - ALL into Him?
28. Eph 4:10-Jesus will fill all things - does this include "hell?"
29. Rev 5:13-All creation seen praising God - Including Satan? All creation!
30. 1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all - What does that mean?
31. Rev 21:4, 5-No more tears, all things made new - ALL made new? Or few? Are you crying still?
32. Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live - How many will hear?
33. Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth - How will the "righteous" Judge, judge?
34. 1 Cor 3:15-All saved so as by fire - How can FIRE save you?
35. Mk 9:49-Everyone shall be salted with fire - Including you?
36. Rm 11:15-Reconciliation of the world - Will fire save?
37. 2Cor 5:15-Jesus died for ALL - Did He die in vain?
38. Jn 8:29-Jesus always does what pleases His Father - What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
39. Heb 1:2-Jesus is Heir of all things - Does "things" include people? YES.
40. Jn 17:2-Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him - How many did the Father give Him?
41. Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things - (Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things".
42. 1 Tim 4:9-11-Jesus is Savior of all - Can't seem to get away from that word "all."
43. Heb. 7:25-Jesus is able to save to the uttermost - How far is "uttermost?"
44. 1Cor 15:26-Last enemy, death, will be destroyed - In the "lake of fire" which is the "second" death. No more dying (Rev 21:4, Isa. 25:8 )?
45. Is 46:10-God will do all His pleasure - Does Old Testament agree with the New?
46. Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed - Here comes that word "all" again.
47. Dan 4:35-God's will done in heaven and earth - What can defeat His will?
48. Ps 66:3, 4-Enemies will submit to God - Can any stay rebellious?
49. Ps 90:3-God turns man to destruction, and then says return - How can one return from "destruction"? Humbled, bruised and ashamed?
50. Is 25:7-Will destroy veil spread over all nations - All nations?
51. Deut 32:39-He kills and makes alive - Kills to bring life?
52. Ps 33:15-God fashions all hearts - "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler"?
53. Prv 16:9-Man devises, God directs his steps - What about "free will"?
54. Prv 19:21-Man devises, but God's counsel stands - So much for "free will."
55. La 3:31, 32-God will not cast off forever - Why does He cast off in the first place?
56. Is 2:2-All nations shall flow to the Lord's house - ALL nations?
57. Ps 86:9-All nations will worship Him - ALL nations!
58. Is 45:23-All descendants of Israel justified - Including the wicked ones?
59. Ps 138:4-All kings will praise God - Are you catching on?
60. Ps 65:2-4-All flesh will come to God - That sounds wondrous.
61. Ps 72:18-God only does wondrous things - I wish we would BELIEVE that.
62. Isa 19:14, 15-Egypt & ***yria will be restored - Really?
63. Ezk 16:55-Sodom will be restored to former estate - Sounds impossible.
64. Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him - Nothing? No, nothing!
65. Ps 22:27-All ends of the earth will turn to Him - For what purpose?
66. Ps 22:27-All families will worship before Him - Praise His name!
67. Ps 145:9-He is good to all - Including your worst enemies.
68. Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works - Let's start believing that.
69. Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall - Who hasn't sinned?
70. Ps 145:10-All His works will praise Him - For "eternal torment"?
71. Is 25:6-Lord makes a feast for all people - And you are invited.
72. Jer 32:35-Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire.- This came from the carnal mind, NOT SPIRITUAL.
73. Jn 6:44-No one can come to Him unless He draws (drag) them. - You can't "choose" to follow Him, SELF-DETERMINATION.
74. Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself - Amen!
75. Ps 135:6-God does what pleases Him - If it PLEASES Him to SAVE ALL that He might be in all, are you upset?

soms,
Ok, I'll take the bait.

First of all... say hi to Euty for me. I know him from CARM-He will remember me.
Secondly---some of these are not relevant to this thread. (but could be answered on a thread of your design.)
Thirdly...many of the questions being raised afterward are not even alluded to in the verses that are quoted. There are many pieces of verses but no immediate, or even larger context, to evaluate your claims against.

A case in point:
31.Rev 21:4, 5-No more tears, all things made new - ALL made new? Or few? Are you crying still?

Yes I am still crying-because this verse has nothing to do with the present. In context it has to do with God wiping away every tear of those who have heeded His call to be reconciled unto him through His Son and have at that time entered into the eternal state with Him. Here is the immediate context:

Rev. 21:1-5--
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth p***ed away, and there is no longer any sea.

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have p***ed away."

5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."

The context is given and now you can see that the question has nothing to do with now. You have not experienced a "new heaven and a new earth" being created. I know I haven't. God has not promised that all things would be resolved in our earthly lifetime.

Here's another:
13. Phil 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord - Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?

This does not teach salvation for all. This is a reference to all recognizing who Jesus is. They will bow to Him because they will understand that he is God, regardless of whether or not they believe in Him as the Savior-they will know it but have already rejected God's offer of reconciliation through Jesus. In the context of the p***age this is in the future.

There are many more but I really think the best way to do this is don't ask Euty's questions-ask yours-unless you are saying that you agree with his rendering of the contents of these verses. I would be glad to answer any and all of your questions-and I'm sure others would, too. Maybe if you broke these 75 questions down into separate categories. There are many repe***ions so there probably aren't really that many questions-but this would be extremely time consuming for those of us who would like to dialogue with you on these subjects. And, as I said, some are not relevant to this thread. So that would narrow the list down considerably. Sound reasonable?

Dave

[sayso]

Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

soms,
Even this verse must be held in context of what Paul was writing about.

1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, pe***ions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,

2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
What is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior? That we would make entreaties and prayers, pe***ions and thanksgivings on behalf of all men. No follower of Jesus ever believed that we should not pray for "all" men regardless who they are or what they believe.
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth? God does, there's no disagreement there. But what is the knowledge of the truth? He answers that in verses 5 and 6.


7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

8 Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.

Here Paul reiterates that what he has said is the "truth" and so therefore he wants everyone to pray without anger or disagreement. Disagreement about what? About the fact that there is One God and One mediator between man and God, the man Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).

2 Peter 3

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,

4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

In this p***age His promise is His second coming. Some people were mockers and saying that Jesus wasn't true to His word.

5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that
by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

So they were looking for and expecting Jesus to return because He said that He will. And again we agree that God is not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to "repentance." What does it mean to "come to repentance"?

[dave52_47]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello Dave,



I never mentioned that I had a problem with the terminology, and I know what is the meaning of this word.

However, we are always the heretic of someone else, and dependently to the group we are adhering (ex: protestants are the heretics of the catholics, and vice and versa). I was not talking about the epistemology of the word, but about the state of mind that we can have when we are composing with those that we are perceiving as heretics.

Actions without love are meaningless, and love without actions consists of emptiness. There is a truth but a truth pushed and imposed with violence is not the truth. It is a distortion of the truth. Any evil thought, lame verbalism, presented with the truth is not serving the truth anymore. This is serving our ego or our bad heart.

There is no excuse about any thought motivated by our pride, about disguised insults, or any quarrel with anyone. This is why we should tame our bad heart and monitor our inner man. The truth cannot be exposed without self-discipline.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.

Galatians 5:22-23
But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.

The truth is not intellectual only. This is visceral. This truth should be radiant.

Trinity

I understand much of what you are trying to convey and I agree with you that there is a much needed call for a re-emphasis on 'love' in the church. And the world for that matter. Where we differ is that you don't include 'justice' in your definition of love. And many people do not feel that a loving God can mete out justice, or call for holiness and righteousness as they feel that to acknowledge these things in God also requires that they admit that there is such a thing as 'evil' which needs to be destroyed, or punishment for 'sins' (another unpopular word) by a 'just' and 'Holy' God. Scripture says that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit (the helper) for the express purpose of dealing with these things:

John 16:7-11--

7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;

11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to 'convict' the world of these things. In other words 'make them feel guilty enough to repent of them'. Strong words from Jesus here. Some might consider them harsh even, just like when He called the Pharisees "snakes' and 'whitewashed tombs full of deadmen's bones'. His words-not mine.

Also we see things differently as regards heresies and those who promote them. In order for there to be a religious 'heresy' there has to be an original teaching that all agree contains the basic tenets of the faith which it seeks to undermine. Such was the case in the early church as Paul, John, Peter, and Jude all comment on the false teachers and false prophets who were in the church at that time. These included the Judaizers and the early Gnostics-the latter which took almost 4 more centuries to eradicate. Irenaeus wrote 5 books dealing with the Gnostic heresy which he was compelled to investigate because it threatened the very existance of the early church. In his books, of which I have downloaded three, he is very thorough in his investigation of the leaders and those who followed them, even to the extent of interviewing many of the leaders to hear exactly what they were teaching-before he called for their expulsion from the Church. This was in the first century. And this set the precedent for establishing an apologetic for the church--defense of the faith--as established in the scriptures:
1 Pet. 3:15--"..but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;..".

1 Tim. 3:13,16, & 17 warns us of what was to come, how to prepare for it, and how to gain approval from God for our conduct as Christians workers..13 "But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived; 16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

We are therefore on solid ground in preparing ourselves to meet this challenge head-on. ***us 1:9 is even more specific about our "overseer's" response to false teachers by: "..holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict."

Someone mentioned that 'truth did not need to be defended' but the Word of God says that we are called to do exactly that. Here is Paul on this subject:
Phillipians 1;7,16--
7 "For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me."16 "..the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel.."

There are many more p***ages that speak to this issue but I will just cite these for now and respond that Jesus warned us in the Gospels that many false Christs, and false prophets would come later and "deceive many", and the New Testament writers as well as the early church fathers felt the need to combat this threat with stern warnings and to give authority to every believer to "defend" the faith and expose the false teachings wherever they may be found throughout the church age - until Jesus returns. That is my basis for "testing the spirits" as John says to do in his first epistle. I feel that we do a diservice to our fellow-believers if we allow these things to go unchallenged, and to a world that lacks discernment in these matters. If Jesus is the TRUTH as he claimed, then everything else must be held up to THAT TRUTH.

Heresy is still an operational word even in modern times. To expose it is not 'mean spirited'-it is always to be done with the goal of seeing others turn to the truth and of experiencing Jesus' love for them and the fate of their souls. He said that he came to seek and to save the lost--we don't help them when we tell them they are children of God when they are not-according to Jesus own words--there are lost people out there.

Dave

[Trinity]

Hello Dave,

Originally Posted by dave52_47

Where we differ is that you don't include 'justice' in your definition of love. And many people do not feel that a loving God can mete out justice, or call for holiness and righteousness as they feel that to acknowledge these things in God also requires that they admit that there is such a thing as 'evil' which needs to be destroyed, or punishment for 'sins' (another unpopular word) by a 'just' and 'Holy' God. Scripture says that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit (the helper) for the express purpose of dealing with these things:

God never asked me to do justice on his behalf.

However, I believe that this kind of justice below is required by God, and this justice, is ***ociated with love.

Psalms 82:3
"Give fair judgment to the poor and the orphan; uphold the rights of the oppressed and the des***ute.

Jas 1:27 -
Pure and lasting religion in the sight of God our Father means that we must care for orphans and widows in their troubles, and refuse to let the world corrupt us.

We all want a pure religion with a good heart, and for all those who are suffering. I am also watching my bad heart because I do not want to be corrupted by the injustices of this world. If I want to change the world this should begin by changing my heart. My good heart should absorb the bad heart.

Pharisees lacked of this kind of justice.

Heresy is still an operational word even in modern times. To expose it is not 'mean spirited'-it is always to be done with the goal of seeing others turn to the truth and of experiencing Jesus' love for them and the fate of their souls. He said that he came to seek and to save the lost--we don't help them when we tell them they are children of God when they are not-according to Jesus own words--there are lost people out there.

Where there is a quarrel there is also no dialogue, and we are all losers.

Jas 1:26 -
If you claim to be religious but don't control your tongue, you are just fooling yourself, and your religion is worthless.

Because we have more than 35,000 christian denominations in United States this means that we have more than 35,000 variations of the truth. What are we selling? The simplicity of Christ and his Gospel or a systematic theology?

Trinity

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello Dave,


Actions without love are meaningless, and love without actions consists of emptiness. There is a truth but a truth pushed and imposed with violence is not the truth. It is a distortion of the truth. Any evil thought, lame verbalism, presented with the truth is not serving the truth anymore. This is serving our ego or our bad heart.

Trinity

There is nothing violent about sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ simply because the one listening judges it to be offensive.

What is unloving toward another is keeping the gift of God to one's self while that brother/sister perishes. It is like having the cure for aids but keeping it to yourself because it might offend the one who needs it. What is unloving toward God is to avoid being offensive so that you will have men's approval.



John 12
42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;

43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

The love and truthfulness of each persons heart can not be judged by how well others receive them and their message.

No person has ever loved another or has been as truthful as Jesus, yet He was mocked and hated and eventually crucified. Why? For His acts of kindness and healing or because He was careful not to offend others with His truth?

No, it was for the Gospel He preached because it was offensive to those who couldn't accept it. He was telling people the truth even though it offended them. He said, "Blessed are those who find NO offense in Me."

Did He push or impose The Truth with violence by saying what He said? Do those who preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ now push and impose the Truth with violence by quoting scriptures of what Jesus said, that "He is The Way, The Truth and The Life", and "no one comes to the Father but by and through Me"?

No, they preach the Gospel so that all who will hear and accept it might be saved because they love them. Just as in the p***age below Jesus was speaking the truth in love hoping that they might receive it and live.

John 8

12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

13 So the Pharisees said to Him, "You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true."

14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.

15 "You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone.

16 "But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me.

17 "Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true.

18 "I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me."

19 So they were saying to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also."

20 These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come.

21 Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."

22 So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?"

23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.

24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

This is pretty forceful, but I wouldn't call it violent.

25 So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning?

26 "I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."

27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father.

28 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

29 "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."

30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.


This is the "Good News", the Gospel. Sharing this news with people is the very essence of love. It is the same thing Jesus spoke that offended those who would not accept Him. Those who share it risk many things like making friends, family, and strangers angry. Angry enough for them to be shunned, attacked, imprisoned, or even killed. But they love enough (even to the laying down of their own lives) to share it even with those who are offended and hate them for it.

No man (his heart) is good, only God is good.

Luke 18

18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.


The action of telling a person the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ IS love. It is loving another enough to risk your own life or any other adverse reaction. Disciples of Christ have been doing it ever since Jesus commanded them to do it. They are obeying His teachings and His commandments because they Love Him (GOD) and they love their neighbors (all).



John 14
23 Jesus answered, If a person [really] loves Me, he will keep My word [obey My teaching]; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home (abode, special dwelling place) with him.

24 Anyone who does not [really] love Me does not observe and obey My teaching. And the teaching which you hear and heed is not Mine, but [comes] from the Father Who sent Me.


Matthew 28
9 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you,and behold, I am with you all the days [perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).


I have answered because it was posted here. However, this subject has taken this thread off topic because the topic is not "is it loving or unloving to share the Gospel of Christ with unbelievers?". The topic here is, "Is Jesus The Only Way To Know God?" Maybe someone needs to start a thread for that topic if they would like to discuss that. Or perhaps a thread for the topic of "what is love?". I might start that one myself.

[Trinity]

Hello sayso,

Originally Posted by sayso

There is nothing violent about sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ simply because the one listening judges it to be offensive.

I think the problem is not about the truth itself but about the way that we are exposing it. We should never be upset about someone who is rejecting us. Just because people do not agree with our truth we should never become berserk. Where is the peace in Christ, if because of our negative emotions we are becoming afflicted? We should distinguish the reject of the truth from the reject of our person. Unfortunately, our ego is the source of all our divisions. Just because someone could disagree with us we have this tendency to look at him as an antagonist. Why? Because our ego is hurt we become suspicious. It is not the reject of the truth that upsets us but the reject of our self. That is touching the pride manifested in every human being.

2 Corinthians 12:20
For I am afraid that when I come to visit you I won't like what I find, and then you won't like my response. I am afraid that I will find quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfishness, backstabbing, gossip, conceit, and disorderly behavior.

The problem is not essentially with all the unbelievers but with the believers. We should not be affected by the reject of the unbelievers, however the egotistic at***ude of the believers could be the main cause of this reject. The christian self-discipline is demanding that we tame the bad heart and that we monitor the inner man.

It is more easy to be the observer than to be observed. And if we are the observer, we should be the observer of our inner man and not of the others. Observing our thoughts, our emotions and actions, and learning about our bad heart or inner man. This is the only way we could love God with all our heart, by taming the bad heart and enlarging the good heart. On the path for a pure heart.

Trinity