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  1. #1
    sayso
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    Default Is Jesus The Only Way To Know God?

    How about this question soms, I say that Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life". He said, "no one comes to the Father (God) but by Me".

    Tell me why you think He didn't mean what He said please.

  2. #2
    Columcille
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    Default John 14.6, 21;Romans 1.18-20;2.12-16

    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    How about this question soms, I say that Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life". He said, "no one comes to the Father (God) but by Me".

    Tell me why you think He didn't mean what He said please.
    Just wanted to make sure you referenced the quote. John 14.6 states:

    Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."


    John 14. 21 states the following:

    "Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."


    I think Jesus means what he says. He is the only way to the Father. In saying this, I think verse 21 applies to those very people mentioned in Romans 2.12-16:



    12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
    13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
    15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
    16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

    This is possible because they are able, without the law or even the knowledge of Christ and his Gospel, find in Romans 1.18-20 the principles of natural revelation:

    18 The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
    19
    For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
    20
    Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;

  3. #3
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    Just wanted to make sure you referenced the quote. John 14.6 states:

    Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."


    John 14. 21 states the following:

    "Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."
    Yes these are a few verses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    I think Jesus means what he says. He is the only way to the Father. In saying this, I think verse 21 applies to those very people mentioned in Romans 2.12-16:

    12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
    13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
    15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
    16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.
    First we need to understand what "law" Paul is talking about that these people keep. Romans is all about the Jewish law and whether or not it is profitable to try to be righteous through one's own works. There are I believe some where over 600 laws, starting with the first 10 given to Moses by God.

    The first commandment is: "Thou Shalt have no other gods before Me". The Me it speaks of is the Word of God Who became flesh and dwelt amongst us, Jesus.

    So while someone is kind and he lives what mankind considers a good life, if that same man chooses another way to God he is in fact disobeying the law.

    Continuing through the book of Romans you find that Paul was not advocating that someone can be saved by performing the law alone. His message is justification and salvation by faith in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross that we are saved by grace. So I don't believe that here in chapter 2 he is saying that there are actually those who will be saved by doing the works of the law apart from knowing Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    This is possible because they are able, without the law or even the knowledge of Christ and his Gospel, find in Romans 1.18-20 the principles of natural revelation:

    18 The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
    19
    For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
    20
    Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;


    I think that if you continue reading from Romans 1 there are a few more verses that you need to read which make it clearer who these folks were that Paul was talking about.

    These people that Paul is talking about in this context were not unbelievers who hadn't heard the gospel. They were people who had believed and turned aways after other gods in unbelief. As verse 21 says "they knew and recognized Him as God". And when you continue reading through the rest of the chapter you find that their end is not a good one.

    21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.

    22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].

    23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.

    24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],

    25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it).

  4. #4
    Leslie
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    My point was, we aren't saved because Jesus came and gave an example. We're saved by his blood that he shed as a sacrifice for sins. Jesus didn't come to be a great teacher, he came to die on the cross for you and me.

  5. #5
    Columcille
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    Default Inexcusable with or without Torah, known thru Creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    First we need to understand what "law" Paul is talking about that these people keep. Romans is all about the Jewish law and whether or not it is profitable to try to be righteous through one's own works. There are I believe some where over 600 laws, starting with the first 10 given to Moses by God.

    The first commandment is: "Thou Shalt have no other gods before Me". The Me it speaks of is the Word of God Who became flesh and dwelt amongst us, Jesus.

    So while someone is kind and he lives what mankind considers a good life, if that same man chooses another way to God he is in fact disobeying the law.

    Continuing through the book of Romans you find that Paul was not advocating that someone can be saved by performing the law alone. His message is justification and salvation by faith in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross that we are saved by grace. So I don't believe that here in chapter 2 he is saying that there are actually those who will be saved by doing the works of the law apart from knowing Jesus.

    I think that if you continue reading from Romans 1 there are a few more verses that you need to read which make it clearer who these folks were that Paul was talking about.

    These people that Paul is talking about in this context were not unbelievers who hadn't heard the gospel. They were people who had believed and turned aways after other gods in unbelief. As verse 21 says "they knew and recognized Him as God". And when you continue reading through the rest of the chapter you find that their end is not a good one.
    What Paul is showing is a progression. Not all the people he addresses are in the final stages. As it, the verses I gave show a natural tendency of knowing God in part through his creation. It is only by the education of the adults that we loose the awe inspiration of something greater behind creation. In essence, we loose our innocence and repress that which would make us whole. Romans 1.32 shows how they encourage such wicked behavior by their "hearty approval." Also, you must notice in the p***age I gave in Romans 1 that they knew God and his attributes through his creation and not the Torah or Law. Nobody is excusable since with or without the Law, they can see him in his creation.

  6. #6
    sunofmysoul
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    How about this question soms, I say that Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life". He said, "no one comes to the Father (God) but by Me".

    Tell me why you think He didn't mean what He said please.
    yes of course sayso!
    thanks for starting this for me.
    and that is probably the perfect place to start.
    certainly the first one always laid on the table in the matter of exclusitivity, and Christianity.

    I believe that Jesus life...His teachings..were in fact the way, the truth, and the life.
    To follow Him, take up His cross....
    is to do what He says...to hear His voice, follow His commands.
    become servants of God, and mankind.
    Love God with all our hearts and souls and minds
    and love our neighbor as ourselves.

    Love even our enemies.
    Bless those who curse us...
    Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless...
    walk in comp***ion to all those around us , being a good neighbor...
    and shine our light...the LOVE of God so that others will be drawn into the kingdom also. I believe we are to walk...as He did, follow Him,...and follow His commands.



    with love,
    soms

  7. #7
    Leslie
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    If Jesus' teachings were all that was required, he never would have had to suffer and die on the cross. Wouldn't you agree? He would of just sent another Prophet if that's all it was.

  8. #8
    sunofmysoul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    If Jesus' teachings were all that was required, he never would have had to suffer and die on the cross. Wouldn't you agree? He would of just sent another Prophet if that's all it was.
    no...why would He "just send another"...if He was willing to live and die...that we may know of His willingness...He led by example. He was willing to give His very life and face even death..on the cross...that all might know of Him.
    He was willing to live the very words...He spoke...
    "There is no greater love than this, that a man be willing to lay down His life for a friend"
    "Bless those who persecute you"
    even as He faced death...He prayed forgiveness on all who slay Him.

  9. #9
    TheSword99
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofmysoul View Post
    no...why would He "just send another"...if He was willing to live and die...that we may know of His willingness...He led by example. He was willing to give His very life and face even death..on the cross...that all might know of Him.
    He was willing to live the very words...He spoke...
    "There is no greater love than this, that a man be willing to lay down His life for a friend"
    "Bless those who persecute you"
    even as He faced death...He prayed forgiveness on all who slay Him.
    Jesus Christ, who is God, HAD to die on the Cross to pay the penalty for the sins of the world and reconcile us back to God. Only God Himself is the perfect sacrifice. No prophet could die for the sins of the world.

  10. #10
    bhuvana-mohan dasa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    If Jesus' teachings were all that was required, he never would have had to suffer and die on the cross. Wouldn't you agree? He would of just sent another Prophet if that's all it was.
    What would be your argument, Leslie, against a possibility of a highly educated (former Pharisee like) Paul having poetically clothed the climax of Jesus' life in language which fit nicely into the antecedent Hebrew understanding of God's injunctions toward them?? Is there not ample precedent for a (somewhat promiscuous) emplyment of "poetic License" demonstrated throughout the Old Testament?

    ys,
    bmd.

  11. #11
    Leslie
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    I would say it's madness.

    You don't go around claiming to worship a jew who died on a cross for the sins of the world if you didn't really believe that. Paul even remarks that it was scandelous to preach such a thing to jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.

    He would have just said "Jesus was a good man who came to show us the right path to righteousness, but was killed before his time. We must follow in his footsteps if we are to become as he was."

    That's preaching a works based salvation, which is not about repentence at all, but penence. The prophet Isaiah said that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. The writer of Hebrews says that without the shedding of blood there is NO remission for sin.

    So, that's my answer. If you take away the sacrifice, all you're left with is a jewish rabbi who was killed on the cross and is dead, and it would be foolish to worship just another "good teacher" And you would still be left in your sins.

  12. #12
    sunofmysoul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    I would say it's madness.

    You don't go around claiming to worship a jew who died on a cross for the sins of the world if you didn't really believe that. Paul even remarks that it was scandelous to preach such a thing to jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.

    He would have just said "Jesus was a good man who came to show us the right path to righteousness, but was killed before his time. We must follow in his footsteps if we are to become as he was."

    That's preaching a works based salvation, which is not about repentence at all, but penence. The prophet Isaiah said that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. The writer of Hebrews says that without the shedding of blood there is NO remission for sin.

    So, that's my answer. If you take away the sacrifice, all you're left with is a jewish rabbi who was killed on the cross and is dead, and it would be foolish to worship just another "good teacher" And you would still be left in your sins.
    perhaps...perhaps i have gone off me rocker...
    at some point on this journey Leslie...this is exactly what i ran into.
    The struggle that this blood sacrifice atones for some...not all...
    and were not talkin bout just bald out evil people...but those who have not "heard'...cultures and religions all over the world from the beginning until now.
    the select few who happen to "hear" the correct and one and only truth...
    get the ticket.
    i can't swallow that any more.
    for one...i can't take a ticket , i cannot find pleasure in my own salvation, when so many others are lost and dying. and I find it very hard to believe in a God...who has less fairness and comp***ion than a teensy human nothingness like myself.

    Call me mad and foolish, but I do love and worship Jesus, without thinking that his blood was a sacrifice...of the sort you mean. I do believe it was the ultimate sacrifice, willingness to give His life that others may become awakened to who God is. He was willing to lay down his entire physical being...and demonstrate with His very life and death the Greatest love of all.
    I humbly bow at His feet, and offer my life and service to learn of this great love, and hope to reflect it...with every ounce of my being, at whatever cost it takes.

    with love,
    soms

  13. #13
    Leslie
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    Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.

    God has ways of reaching people, he can speak to people personally, he can send angels, or send missionaries. It's to imagine, but the greater number of people are going to go to hell. Jesus said that broad was the path that leads to destruction and many would go therein.

    That's why we have to do our best to spread the gospel to as many people as we can. Go out into the highways and the hedges, and spread the good news. Those that are out in the middle of nowhere, God can still reach. Have faith in that.

  14. #14
    bhuvana-mohan dasa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.
    ........and why do you call "madness" one's preference to view this "shedding of blood" as allegorical expression of sacrifice ("till it hurts") rather than a series of collectively expressed physical processes?

    ys,
    bmd.

  15. #15
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofmysoul View Post
    perhaps...perhaps i have gone off me rocker...
    at some point on this journey Leslie...this is exactly what i ran into.
    The struggle that this blood sacrifice atones for some...not all...
    and were not talkin bout just bald out evil people...but those who have not "heard'...cultures and religions all over the world from the beginning until now.
    the select few who happen to "hear" the correct and one and only truth...
    get the ticket.

    i can't swallow that any more.
    for one...i can't take a ticket , i cannot find pleasure in my own salvation, when so many others are lost and dying. and I find it very hard to believe in a God...who has less fairness and comp***ion than a teensy human nothingness like myself.

    Call me mad and foolish, but I do love and worship Jesus, without thinking that his blood was a sacrifice...of the sort you mean. I do believe it was the ultimate sacrifice, willingness to give His life that others may become awakened to who God is. He was willing to lay down his entire physical being...and demonstrate with His very life and death the Greatest love of all.
    I humbly bow at His feet, and offer my life and service to learn of this great love, and hope to reflect it...with every ounce of my being, at whatever cost it takes.

    with love,
    soms
    The problem with your thinking dearest soms is that there has not been nor will there ever be not even one person that does not have the chance to hear and choose for themselves. Even all those who lived and died before Jesus have had this gospel preached to them. There are none who have not heard, nor none who will not hear it.

    No true Christian feels good at the thought of others lost and dying, but will our own unbelief and denial of the truth keep them from that fate? It is as Leslie said, we must go out into the highways and byways and compel them to come. We must pray and intercede for them daily.

    God is not unjust, unfair or without comp***ion as you have imagined.

    Matthew 24:14
    "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    1 Peter 4:6
    For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

    1 John 4:10
    In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

  16. #16
    sunofmysoul
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    The problem with your thinking dearest soms is that there has not been nor will there ever be not even one person that does not have the chance to hear and choose for themselves. Even all those who lived and died before Jesus have had this gospel preached to them. There are none who have not heard, nor none who will not hear it.
    i agree. I just believe that God has used the various cultures and religions all over the world to do so. Having occasionally to manifest Himself in deeper ways. I would be interested in how you believe this happens though.
    (for instance Native americans...before christ , back jungles..., etc.)
    when viewing the "ONE and only Version of the TRUTH" with such a scope of elitism..i fear that we are faced with an arrogance, when we readily claim all others "truth"...,holy books, prayers, etc...to be worthless, and evil....
    I see Christians say that you must open your heart, be open minded...
    (to get away from all the "false" religions and cults...)
    but...we ourselves would never be so...."openminded" with their holy books,
    and beliefs and prayers, and customs.

    No true Christian feels good at the thought of others lost and dying, but will our own unbelief and denial of the truth keep them from that fate? It is as Leslie said, we must go out into the highways and byways and compel them to come. We must pray and intercede for them daily.
    i don't just not feel good about it...it is unacceptable.
    by all means we must shine a light of love so all may be drawn to the flame...
    YES....but what if we see this love...coming from someone of another faith?
    what does that mean? how can they have it?
    in order to believe that it is christianity ONLY that gives us peace that p***es understanding, the ability to walk in sacrificial love, (God's love)
    and be filled with the fruit of the spirit.....
    one must walk in cognitive dissonance. one must blind oneself to others.
    (the truth) imho.
    God is not unjust, unfair or without comp***ion as you have imagined.
    not my imagination...my understanding of the exclusitivity (and elitism) of christianity
    Matthew 24:14
    "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    1 Peter 4:6
    For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

    1 John 4:10
    In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
    [/quote]
    i will say the beginning of my questioning began with verse 1 john 4:7-8

    and the question of how good fruit can grow on a rotten tree...or vice versa.


    with love,
    soms

  17. #17
    sayso
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    Soms,

    I'm not ignoring you. I will read and consider your answer later. But it may take a little while. I have been up since 1:30 A.M. this morning and didn't get to sleep until around 11:00 P.M. last night. I work in retail and we are working long hours and extra days so I am exhausted. I will reply when I've had the opportunity to catch up on my sleep and pray about it.

  18. #18
    Trinity
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    Is Jesus The Only Way To Know God?
    There is many ways to know Jesus. We all have a distinctive path that one day, became connected with his own road. The soul and with his unique living background is determining a different path for each individuality. Our acts in our past are determining what we are today, and our today acts will determine what we will be tomorrow. There is a causality also in the spiritual life. There is a synchronicity of some events that conducted my soul to embracing christianity. The question is more precise if we ask if it is possible to know God without Jesus?

    The answer is yes. Even John the Baptist was not absolutely certain about Jesus but he believed in God anyway. And Jesus and him were cousins. And since he has doubted about Jesus for a short time this had not undermined his faith in God.

    Luke 7:18-20
    John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them,
    he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?'"


    Trinity

  19. #19
    sunofmysoul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    There is many ways to know Jesus. We all have a distinctive path that one day, became connected with his own road. The soul and with his unique living background is determining a different path for each individuality. Our acts in our past are determining what we are today, and our today acts will determine what we will be tomorrow. There is a causality also in the spiritual life. There is a synchronicity of some events that conducted my soul to embracing christianity. The question is more precise if we ask if it is possible to know God without Jesus?

    The answer is yes. Even John the Baptist was not absolutely certain about Jesus but he believed in God anyway. And Jesus and him were cousins. And since he has doubted about Jesus for a short time this had not undermined his faith in God.

    Luke 7:18-20
    John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them,
    he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?'"


    Trinity
    this was worded very interestingly Trinity...
    but i would like a bit of further clarification...(if you don't mind..)

    to say that we can know God without knowing Jesus...

    But can we be "saved" without knowing Jesus...and probably then we would need to define...."saved"

    thank you very much for your response,
    with love,
    soms

  20. #20
    Trinity
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    Hello sunofmysoul,

    Quote Originally Posted by sunofmysoul View Post
    But can we be "saved" without knowing Jesus...and probably then we would need to define...."saved" thank you very much for your response,
    I will return the question in a different way.

    For all the Jews not converted from the first century, throughout the centuries, and until this day, can we say that they are all lost without any exception, not even one sole exception? Children of the holocaust, parents, grandparents, the victims of the christian anti-semitism, etc?

    If yes, now why the christian evangelists are still calling them, "the people of God", and why they are giving of their money to support the State of Israel politically? In brief, why they are so in love with people that God is ****ing.

    Like Paul I prefer to say that this is a mystery than to **** any Jew, from any time and from any place and from any condition.

    Romans 11:25
    I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ.

    If this blindness is willingly caused by the master-plan of God , how he can **** them? In brief, I am believing into a fair God, and not into a cruel God.

    Trinity

  21. #21
    sunofmysoul
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    a collection of quotes of some more emerging type christians. (thoughts to chew on)
    The Brian McLaren one, from The Last Battle by cs lewis is one I have brought up before in my own questions...(makes me think i need to read some more McLaren for sure...)
    CS Lewis does not present it anywhere as theology, but it does open the mind to at least consider the question...(in a rather beautiful way).



    In January 2007 Tony Campolo told the Edmonton Journal (Alberta,Canada) that he is not sure who will go to heaven. Asked by the paper,“Do you believe non-Christians can go to heaven?” Campolo replied: “That’s a good question to ask because the way we stand is we contendthat trusting in Jesus is the way to heaven. However, we do not knowwho Jesus will bring into the kingdom and who He will not. We arevery, very careful about pronouncing judgment on anybody. We leave judgment in the hands of God and we are saying Jesus is the way. Wepreach Jesus, but we have no way of knowing to whom the grace of Godis extended” (“Canada’s Different Evangelicals,” Edmonton Journal, January 27, 2007)


    Brian McLaren says, “I don’t think it’s our business to prognosticatethe eternal destinies of anyone else” (A New Kind of Christian, p. 92)and offers a quote from a C.S. Lewis novel as his authority. In this novel Lewis’s character was a soldier who served a false god named Tash all his life, but he was accepted nonetheless by Aslan, *****presents Christ. “Alas, Lord, I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash. Heanswered, Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account ***ervice done to me. ... Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn,though he know it not, and it is I who reward him."


    Karen Ward says: “I affirm no other Savior than Jesus Christ, yet at the same time, I feel no need to know with certainty the final destination of those ofother faiths who either have no knowledge of Christ or who do notaccept the Christian claims of the atonement” (Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches, p. 46).


    Leonard Sweet says: “One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying theflickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, orKrishna” (Quantum Spirituality, p. 130).


    Henri Nouwen, whose writings are constantly referenced by the emerging church and the contemplative movement, said: “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, ALL HUMAN BEINGS CAN WALK THROUGH THAT DOOR, WHETHER THEY KNOW ABOUT JESUS OR NOT. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God” (Sabbatical Journey, New York:Crossroad, 1998, p. 51).


    Dallas Willard also holds to this; “I still struggle with how I should view those who have other beliefs. I’m not sure I am ready to condemn them as wrong. I know some very good Buddhists. What is their destiny?” To this he replied: “I am not going to stand in the way of anyone whom God wants to save.I am not going to say he can’t save them. I am happy for God to saveanyone he wants in any way he can. IT IS POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT KNOW JESUS TO BE SAVED. But anyone who is going to be saved isgoing to be saved by Jesus” (“Apologetics in Action,” Cutting Edgemagazine, winter 2001, vol. 5 no. 1, Vineyard USA, http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=14)

  22. #22
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofmysoul View Post
    a collection of quotes of some more emerging type christians. (thoughts to chew on)
    The Brian McLaren one, from The Last Battle by cs lewis is one I have brought up before in my own questions...(makes me think i need to read some more McLaren for sure...)
    CS Lewis does not present it anywhere as theology, but it does open the mind to at least consider the question...(in a rather beautiful way).



    In January 2007 Tony Campolo told the Edmonton Journal (Alberta,Canada) that he is not sure who will go to heaven. Asked by the paper,“Do you believe non-Christians can go to heaven?” Campolo replied: “That’s a good question to ask because the way we stand is we contendthat trusting in Jesus is the way to heaven. However, we do not knowwho Jesus will bring into the kingdom and who He will not. We arevery, very careful about pronouncing judgment on anybody. We leave judgment in the hands of God and we are saying Jesus is the way. Wepreach Jesus, but we have no way of knowing to whom the grace of Godis extended” (“Canada’s Different Evangelicals,” Edmonton Journal, January 27, 2007)


    Brian McLaren says, “I don’t think it’s our business to prognosticatethe eternal destinies of anyone else” (A New Kind of Christian, p. 92)and offers a quote from a C.S. Lewis novel as his authority. In this novel Lewis’s character was a soldier who served a false god named Tash all his life, but he was accepted nonetheless by Aslan, *****presents Christ. “Alas, Lord, I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash. Heanswered, Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account ***ervice done to me. ... Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn,though he know it not, and it is I who reward him."


    Karen Ward says: “I affirm no other Savior than Jesus Christ, yet at the same time, I feel no need to know with certainty the final destination of those ofother faiths who either have no knowledge of Christ or who do notaccept the Christian claims of the atonement” (Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches, p. 46).


    Leonard Sweet says: “One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying theflickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, orKrishna” (Quantum Spirituality, p. 130).


    Henri Nouwen, whose writings are constantly referenced by the emerging church and the contemplative movement, said: “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, ALL HUMAN BEINGS CAN WALK THROUGH THAT DOOR, WHETHER THEY KNOW ABOUT JESUS OR NOT. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God” (Sabbatical Journey, New York:Crossroad, 1998, p. 51).


    Dallas Willard also holds to this; “I still struggle with how I should view those who have other beliefs. I’m not sure I am ready to condemn them as wrong. I know some very good Buddhists. What is their destiny?” To this he replied: “I am not going to stand in the way of anyone whom God wants to save.I am not going to say he can’t save them. I am happy for God to saveanyone he wants in any way he can. IT IS POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT KNOW JESUS TO BE SAVED. But anyone who is going to be saved isgoing to be saved by Jesus” (“Apologetics in Action,” Cutting Edgemagazine, winter 2001, vol. 5 no. 1, Vineyard USA, http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=14)

    soms,
    this post opens a whole other topic, heresy. Many of those you quote here are considered heretics by the body of Christ, because they teach what is false and not what is true; Brian McLaren being one of the worst. The emergent church is another whole discussion. They have re-interpreted scripture to say what they would like it to say instead of what it does say.

    Paul said that if even he himself or an angel preached another gospel they are accursed.

    Galatians 1
    6 I am surprised and astonished that you are so quickly turning renegade and deserting Him Who invited and called you by the grace (unmerited favor) of Christ (the Messiah) [and that you are transferring your allegiance] to a different [even an opposition] gospel.

    7 Not that there is [or could be] any other [genuine Gospel], but there are [obviously] some who are troubling and disturbing and bewildering you [with a different kind of teaching which they offer as a gospel] and want to pervert and distort the Gospel of Christ (the Messiah) [into something which it absolutely is not].

    8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!


    9 As we said before, so I now say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from or contrary to that which you received [from us], let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

    10 Now am I trying to win the favor of men, or of God? Do I seek to please men? If I were still seeking popularity with men, I should not be a bond servant of Christ (the Messiah).

    11 For I want you to know, brethren, that the Gospel which was proclaimed and made known by me is not man's gospel [a human invention, according to or patterned after any human standard].

    12 For indeed I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through a [direct] revelation [given] by Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

  23. #23
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    this post opens a whole other topic, heresy. Many of those you quote here are considered heretics by the body of Christ, because they teach what is false and not what is true; Brian McLaren being one of the worst. The emergent church is another whole discussion. They have re-interpreted scripture to say what they would like it to say instead of what it does say.
    The most important thing for a christian is about what should be our at***ude when we consider a teaching a heresy. A heresy is not something that is totally false but something that is twisted or embellished.

    When Jesus had met a Samaritan woman they discussed on where to worship God. The best site. On a mountain or at the temple. For the Jews, Samaritans were heretics because they worshiped God like the Fathers (patriarchs), on a mountain. However, the Jews followed the ins***ution founded by Solomon. At the temple.

    Both sides were correct according to the sacred texts they were referring too. Anyway, Jesus came with a third way. You should worship God in spirit and within the truth.

    Even heretics can believe truthful things. This is why some atheists are more wise and have more wisdom than many christians. I met some men and also some women who were not christians, and they were much better men and women, than many christians that I met (more mature). There is some christians that have not this problem with heresies but they certainly have a problem with their fanatical at***ude. And this is very ugly, this is in a total discordance with the character of Jesus.

    Ephesians 4:31
    Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior.

    James 2:13
    For there will be no mercy for you if you have not been merciful to others. But if you have been merciful, then God's mercy toward you will win out over his judgment against you.

    Anyone who feels irritated by my posts or the posts of any other member in this forum is on the wrong track.

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 11-30-2008 at 06:16 PM.

  24. #24
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post

    Anyone who feels irritated by my posts or the posts of any other member in this forum is on the wrong track.

    Trinity
    Who judges the heart to know which one is irritated or which one is not?

  25. #25
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    Who judges the heart to know which one is irritated or which one is not?
    ...“You“...

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