Protestant Christian

[Leslie]

The Protestants were protesting the practices of the medieval Church which the modern RCC has admitted were wrong. You had as Erasmas put it "so many splinters of the True Cross you could build noah's ark!" and not to mention the horrid practice of Indulgences so the Popes could build gigantic cathedrals and monuments. Need I also mention the Pornocracy which in its day basically saw *****s and courtesons ruling Rome via the Papacy!

Were the Protestants perfect? Surely not, but at least they pointed out these things that were wrong. The thing with Protestantism is, you cannot just judge them all together as one, because we aren't one organization the same way the RCC is by comparason. We agree mostly on all the core issues, we just have differences of opinion with regardes to some aspects.

You judge us as individuals, if you have the right to judge us at all.

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by Leslie

The Protestants were protesting the practices of the medieval Church which the modern RCC has admitted were wrong. You had as Erasmas put it "so many splinters of the True Cross you could build noah's ark!" and not to mention the horrid practice of Indulgences so the Popes could build gigantic cathedrals and monuments. Need I also mention the Pornocracy which in its day basically saw *****s and courtesons ruling Rome via the Papacy!

Were the Protestants perfect? Surely not, but at least they pointed out these things that were wrong. The thing with Protestantism is, you cannot just judge them all together as one, because we aren't one organization the same way the RCC is by comparason. We agree mostly on all the core issues, we just have differences of opinion with regardes to some aspects.

You judge us as individuals, if you have the right to judge us at all.

Its funny as Catholic we are asking you to judge us as the church as a whole not on catholics as individuals. Totally opposite in mentality. The key here is what did Jesus mean in matt when he refered to a church and the gates of hell not prevailing against it. Saying that the original church went apostate goes against christ's own words.

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by tealblue

Its funny as Catholic we are asking you to judge us as the church as a whole not on catholics as individuals. Totally opposite in mentality. The key here is what did Jesus mean in matt when he refered to a church and the gates of hell not prevailing against it. Saying that the original church went apostate goes against christ's own words.

Last time I read my Bible, it said that the Church was founded at Jerusalem, not Rome.

I'm still surprised you guys aren't based at Jerusalem instead of Rome.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Leslie

Last time I read my Bible, it said that the Church was founded at Jerusalem, not Rome.

I'm still surprised you guys aren't based at Jerusalem instead of Rome.

The Church is based on the foundation of Apostles. Apostles moved around and were not stationary. So yes, it was founded in place at Jerusalem, but that does not necessarily mean the Apostles were stagnant and remained there. Rome is an epicenter of activity in those days, and Paul met his death there as well as tradition holds that Peter also was hanged upsidedown in Rome. I think Clement, who is mentioned in the Bible by Paul, was a leader of the Church and his patristic writings had some influence.

Chapter XL.—Let us preserve in the Church the order appointed by God.
These things therefore being manifest to us, and since we look into the depths of the divine knowledge, it behoves us to do all things in [their proper] order, which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times.175175 Some join κατά καιροὺς τεταγμένους, “at stated times.” to the next sentence. [1 Cor. xvi. 1, 2.] He has enjoined offerings [to be presented] and service to be performed [to Him], and that not thoughtlessly or irregularly, but at the appointed times and hours. Where and by whom He desires these things to be done, He Himself has fixed by His own supreme will, in order that all things being piously done according to His good pleasure, may be acceptable unto Him.176176 Literally, “to His will.” [Comp. Rom. xv. 15, 16, Greek.] Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord, they sin not. For his own peculiar services are ***igned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ii.ii.xl.html

What I do not get so far is, why are we discussing this aspect of Catholicism in a thread devoted to finding a definition on what is a Protestant Christian. Leslie, Bob, or somebody... post a new thread on this subject in the Catholic section of this board.

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by Leslie

Last time I read my Bible, it said that the Church was founded at Jerusalem, not Rome. I'm still surprised you guys aren't based at Jerusalem instead of Rome.

In addition and with the above Columcille answer, keep in mind, that Jerusalem was completely destroyed and deserted in the year 70 (first century).

Trinity

[Leslie]

I think that in order to understand what a Protestant Christian is, you must first understand what it is that he or she is Protesting against in the first place. Which is the traditions and practices not found within Holy Scripture, which the papists would have you believe are absolutely needed to go to Heaven. That is what we protest. You're essentially saying all those Christians (including Catholics) who didn't believe in Papal infallibility go to hell, or the Marian Dogmas which were not around in the earlier years.

If i'm going to hell because I don't believe in these things, we can just blame the Apostles or even God himself for not having them write these things down in Scripture where it would be God-Breathed.

[Columcille]

Originally Posted by Leslie

I think that in order to understand what a Protestant Christian is, you must first understand what it is that he or she is Protesting against in the first place. Which is the traditions and practices not found within Holy Scripture, which the papists would have you believe are absolutely needed to go to Heaven. That is what we protest. You're essentially saying all those Christians (including Catholics) who didn't believe in Papal infallibility go to hell, or the Marian Dogmas which were not around in the earlier years.

If i'm going to hell because I don't believe in these things, we can just blame the Apostles or even God himself for not having them write these things down in Scripture where it would be God-Breathed.

There are so many things to be addressed in this quote of yours Leslie, but the livelyhood of the discussion will get no where if we run every tangent. A Protestant did protest the Catholic Church, that goes without saying. But is it well founded or consistent in its applications? When you start talking about Canonicity, you might rationally talk about a rubric or standard from which you apply to each book of the Scriptures. However, each rubric that is highlighted contradicts other books in the bible, leading to an inconsistency that really rests on the work of the Catholic Church in the fourth century. One such rubric is that it is prophetic with a "thus says the Lord" type of authority. You will judge Wisdom lacking such qualities, but in regards to Song of Songs or Esther you are completely silent. When it comes to a timeline, you are running yourself in circles because you have taken for granted what the Church Fathers actually believed. You believe in the Trinity, yet the Apostles didn't write "Trinity" down in a dogmatic formation. Scripture is God breathed; and it is the Church as a universal community that recognized it by the Holy Spirit when the Council of Rome persuaded the Council of Carthage, which in turn was submitted to the Trullo and ratified by the seventh Ecumenical council of Nice II. Yet, you talk about if the ratification never took place until the Council of Trent in response to the Reformation. Before the ratification of the canons of Carthage at Nice II, you have a long list of individual's giving their own lists that do not correspond to the Scriptures that even Protestants use. Perhaps the closest is St.Athenasius, but only one list? http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf...i.iii.xxv.html

Of course, if you accept his as the closest, you have already rejected Baruch.

[Bob Carabbio]

"Saying that the original church went apostate goes against Christ's own words."

And yet even CATHOLIC histories record the sorry state of the "original church" in Luther's time with the Pope in Luther's being dismissed as an "Unfortunate choice" - by his own church which was corrupt to the core, and dying in it's own supers***ion.

But in fact, no thanks to the Romanist system, the Gates of hell DID NOT prevail, and as expected the church/Body of Christ (which never was the Romanist system) is in fine health, right on Schedule, and in budget till the end of the age.

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by Bob Carabbio

And yet even CATHOLIC histories record the sorry state of the "original church" in Luther's time with the Pope in Luther's being dismissed as an "Unfortunate choice" - by his own church which was corrupt to the core, and dying in it's own supers***ion.

Sorry but the Church you were referring above is still alive.

The Catholic Church had done his "mea culpa" for their bad religious leaders. We apologized to the Orthodox church, the Muslims and the Jews. And we still have regrets to proclaim. However, this is something the protestants have not done yet about their crimes.

The bashing against my church will not help anyone and this could be much more worst if I begin to do the same tactic about the crimes committed by protestants. By exposing what the protestant churches did throughout the history of the reform until our modern days. This is very ugly too.

Trinity

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Sorry but the Church you were referring above is still alive.

The Catholic Church had done his "mea culpa" for their bad religious leaders. We apologized to the Orthodox church, the Muslims and the Jews. And we still have regrets to proclaim. However, this is something the protestants have not done yet about their crimes.

The bashing against my church will not help anyone and this could be much more worst if I begin to do the same tactic about the crimes committed by protestants. By exposing what the protestant churches did throughout the history of the reform until our modern days. This is very ugly too.

Trinity

The Roman Catholic Church has apologized to the Orthodox, Muslims and the Jews, but have they aplogized to all the Protestants they tortured during the Inquisition or the ones they burned at the stake? I find it very ironic that they try to make amends to all these groups but not to the evil Protestants. You apologize to the Muslims who are pagans but not to those who profess faith in Christ alongside of you.

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by Leslie

The Roman Catholic Church has apologized to the Orthodox, Muslims and the Jews, but have they aplogized to all the Protestants they tortured during the Inquisition or the ones they burned at the stake?

Yes.

"The Pope also apologized for the Inquisition, thus hitting not only Spain but Dante,..."
http://wais.stanford.edu/Religion/religion_pope.html
World ***ociation of International Studies, Stanford University, CA — PAX et LUX

Protestants in Europe, in England and also in United States have done the same crimes.

Please, before posting, do some research. Thank you.

Trinity

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Yes.

"The Pope also apologized for the Inquisition, thus hitting not only Spain but Dante,..."
http://wais.stanford.edu/Religion/religion_pope.html
World ***ociation of International Studies, Stanford University, CA — PAX et LUX

Protestants in Europe, in England and also in United States have done the same crimes.

Please, before posting, do some research. Thank you.

Trinity

Has the Church apologized to Protestants the same way they have done Orthodox Christians, Jews and Muslims?

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by Leslie

Has the Church apologized to Protestants the same way they have done Orthodox Christians, Jews and Muslims?

Yes.

I think this is important to admit that human beings are capable of good things and of the worst things.

Trinity

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Yes.

I think this is important to admit that human beings are capable of good things and of the worst things.

Trinity

Ok then, that is a good thing. I've applauded the Catholic Church in admitting that it has done wrong in the past.

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by Leslie

Ok then, that is a good thing. I've applauded the Catholic Church in admitting that it has done wrong in the past.

It is important to remember that people in other epochs were living in a different society, with different rules and manners. We should not look at the past with our eyes of modern man, living in a democratic society and protected by a political cons***ution or with a human rights proclamation.

Trinity

[Trinity]

Hello Leslie,

Originally Posted by Leslie

Ok then, that is a good thing. I've applauded the Catholic Church in admitting that it has done wrong in the past.

I forgot to mention that we apologized for what we have done to Galileo also.

Pope marks Galileo anniversary, praises astronomy
Sun Dec 21, 2008

In 1992, Pope John Paul II apologized, saying that the denuncuation was a tragic error.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081221/...6UxfLK_Yqs0NUE

Trinity

[TimLScheffer]

The First Protestor... Martin Luther... did not mean to begin a new branch of the Christian or Universal/Catholic Church...

Martin Luther was simply protesting the Change in the Catholic or Universal Church by which,

Church Tradition was elevated to a higher authority than the Holy Bible... ie God's Word.

Luther was protesting the change... and thus dubbed a Protestant...

The Catholic Powers that be refused to back off the position that Church Tradition and the Pope trumped The Bible where there was a conflict.

In the last couple of Decades... Unfortunately.... Many of the Protestant Faiths have elevated themselves above Scripture... the Holy Bible... There are very few left that hold to the Protestant affirmation that the Bible is the True, Infallible, Inerrant Word of God.

A few of the fallen... The ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America), not to be confused with
WELCA or LCMS brands of Lutheranism

The Methodists

The Presbytarians

The American Baptists... not to be confused with Southeran Baptists

The Episcpalions or whoever you spell that...

This is not an exhaustive list... I wish it was.

[RGS]

Read post 6 on this thread. Then go to post 9, where it says: He has received reconciliation with God and he has done this without Catholicism or Protestantism. Do you deny this?

Where is the answer to this question. Has no one the wisdom to give a yes or a no?

[Jean Chauvin]

Wow,

A very simplified answer.

The material issue was/is justification.
The formal issue was authority.

These were the two main issues of the Reformation. Luther saw that Rome was ripping people off so they could build St. Peter's, among other things. But the core of it started doctrinally, the ripping off is simply what you would expect to find in paganism. That's what pagans do.

And of course, Rome did not like people exposing it. So Rome murdered them. Sometimes they would utterly torture them. Or Cut their stomachs and put pig food in their stomach so the pigs could eat them to death (see Fox's book of Martyrs).

But often, they burned them alive by making the ***gots as hot as they could be.

Rome is evil. The Reformers knew this. ALL of their lives were in danger. But through their fruit of boldness, God used them for His glory.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

[AllyManderson]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Yes.

"The Pope also apologized for the Inquisition, thus hitting not only Spain but Dante,..."
http://wais.stanford.edu/Religion/religion_pope.html
World ***ociation of International Studies, Stanford University, CA — PAX et LUX

Protestants in Europe, in England and also in United States have done the same crimes.

Please, before posting, do some research. Thank you.

Trinity

Why do you list England and Europe? England is part of Europe. England is the largest cons***uent country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom is a member of the European Union. The UK is European.

This would be like saying "Protestants in North America, in Canada...". As a proud British citizen I do not like this manner in which people feel a need to give England seperate regional treatment.

Roman Catholics and Protestants have done a great deal of harm to one another. The inquisition you must accept is one of the most noticeable. But, the inquisition was NOT Christian.

I do not judge Catholics based on Previous Popes - just as I do not judge Jews on the death of Jesus Christ or blame all muslims for the terrorist attacks in the United Kingdom.

Similarly, the Popes apology means nothing to me. As many Catholic might support such actions! (I know that they don't)

The main thing about me as a Christian is that I like to hear from people not designated spokesman and leaders. The Popes apology means no more than an apology from you Trinity.

But it if the fact that Catholics would place special importance on the word of the Pope that makes Protestants expect the Pope to apologise for every little thing.

If you were to sit down and try to apologise for every misdeed of every Roman Catholic you would have as long a life as Noah. A similar amount to if you attempted to do the same for every failure of a Protestant.

_________

Another thing, You state that people should "do research". I hope that you do not continue to take this tone as you have proven yourself an intellectual I do not think it right for you to talk down to people in such a manner. By all means say "I suggest you look at..." "You may want to..." but do not state "do some research".

The fact that you are smart is a great gift you have been given. Do not demand that other show the same. If someone is doing their best with the brain they are given you should not aim a petty **** towards them.

You are far better than that.

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by AllyManderson

Why do you list England and Europe? England is part of Europe. England is the largest cons***uent country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom is a member of the European Union. The UK is European.

I was referring to a different time of the history. Not about the modern Europe or the modern America. But about the period where there was conflicts and wars between England with Spain, France or Germany. To begin with Henry Vlll.

Please be indulgent with my English because this is not my native language. Sometimes I can lack in clarifications.

The fact that you are smart is a great gift you have been given. Do not demand that other show the same. If someone is doing their best with the brain they are given you should not aim a petty **** towards them.

I agree. It is very easy to patronize. I am trying to correct this bad habit.

Oliver Cromwell was also a very effective protestant inquisitor (ex: Ireland m***acre).

Trinity

[AllyManderson]

Originally Posted by Trinity

I was referring to a different time of the history. Not about the modern Europe or the modern America. But about the period where there was conflicts and wars between England with Spain, France or Germany. To begin with Henry Vlll.

Please be indulgent with my English because this is not my native language. Sometimes I can lack in clarifications.



I agree. It is very easy to patronize. I am trying to correct this bad habit.

Oliver Cromwell was also a very effective protestant inquisitor (ex: Ireland m***acre).

Trinity

Now this is the problem that we have. Cromwell, who took over from the Monarchy, was ***isted by Scottish and Irish soldiers. The "English Civil War" was a very BRITISH war.

To claim that Oliver Cromwell's misdeeds represent England and not Britain is, from my position as Scottish and British, unfair. Remember that the "English" monarchy overthrown also had its roots in Scotland and it was supported by many Scots as well.

Henry VIII was supported by a great deal of Scottish money and Scottish soldiers.

You can't talk about England without talking about Scotland - particularly after the Union of the Crowns.

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by AllyManderson

Now this is the problem that we have. Cromwell, who took over from the Monarchy, was ***isted by Scottish and Irish soldiers. The "English Civil War" was a very BRITISH war.

To claim that Oliver Cromwell's misdeeds represent England and not Britain is, from my position as Scottish and British, unfair. Remember that the "English" monarchy overthrown also had its roots in Scotland and it was supported by many Scots as well.

Henry VIII was supported by a great deal of Scottish money and Scottish soldiers.

You can't talk about England without talking about Scotland - particularly after the Union of the Crowns.

The simple truth is that Cromwell had targeted the Catholics. Many died and suffered great pains because of his anti-catholicism. Even after his death the consequences of his wars and politics were terrible, and especially for the Catholics of Ireland.

"One of the worst famines in modern times in the Western world was the Irish famine of 1846 through 1849. It started as the result of a prolonged potato blight that over several years caused the nation’s potatoes to rot. While this occurred not only in Ireland but also in other parts of Europe, it had a devastating impact in Ireland. Four factors caused the disease to become a tragedy of enormous proportions: As a result of the British occupation and Cromwell’s wars, most of the Irish were peasants engaged in subsistence agriculture. The potato was their staple food. They had little income beyond whatever minuscule incomes they could make from the sale of the potato and other farm products. Second, they did not own their farmsteads, but were tied to Protestant or British landlords who insisted that they should continue to pay their rent even when no income could be obtained. As they could not pay, hundreds of thousands were evicted. Third, Ireland was not an independent country with its own government, which might have recognized its responsibility to take remedial action; Ireland was under British rule..." [p. 344-345]

Encyclopedia of Genocide and Crimes against Humanity
Edited by Dinah Shelton
Thomson & Gale Encyclopedia
Volume -2-, 2005, 1458 pages.
http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-G...9599692&sr=1-1

Dinah Shelton is the Patricia Roberts Harris Research Professor of Law at George Washington University Law School. Before joining George
Washington in 2004, she taught international law and was director of the doctoral program in international human rights law at the University of Notre Dame Law School (1996-2004). Shelton is the author of three prize-winning books and has also served as a legal consultant to the United Nations Environment Programme, UNITAR, World Health Organization, European Union, Council of Europe, and Organization of American States.

Trinity