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Thread: Protestant Christian

  1. #26
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    Has the Church apologized to Protestants the same way they have done Orthodox Christians, Jews and Muslims?
    Yes.

    I think this is important to admit that human beings are capable of good things and of the worst things.

    Trinity

  2. #27
    Leslie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Yes.

    I think this is important to admit that human beings are capable of good things and of the worst things.

    Trinity
    Ok then, that is a good thing. I've applauded the Catholic Church in admitting that it has done wrong in the past.

  3. #28
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    Ok then, that is a good thing. I've applauded the Catholic Church in admitting that it has done wrong in the past.
    It is important to remember that people in other epochs were living in a different society, with different rules and manners. We should not look at the past with our eyes of modern man, living in a democratic society and protected by a political cons***ution or with a human rights proclamation.

    Trinity

  4. #29
    RGS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    God's salvation works within certain boundaries. Obviously, God cannot save the reprobate. As such, what should I say to you. Not playing further games, etc.?

    So let us look at your premises. Premise one is that the "saved survivor" receives reconciliation with God. True. This applies to all Christians, Catholic or Protestant. Your premise #2 is that such a person has done this without Catholicism or Protestantism. At this conjuncture, I disagree with you completely. All Christians are to be discipled. Even if there is no discipleship person to person, it is clear that the transmission of the Scriptures is not something we can seperate from the Church. I do not see any epistles addressed to heretics or even the emperor that is included in the Scriptures. It is clearly all addressed to the people of God in community. As such, this message the core of orthodoxy in both Protestantism and Catholicism is carried out through the tenets of both. The bible you speak about found on the island by the saved survivor in WWII, who published it? If it is by the American Bible Society, it is clearly through the prism of Protestantism since it has 66 books instead of 72 books. The translations themselves bear a mark on the various denominations. Was it KJV, approved by the Church of England. Was it the Pilgrim's Bible (The Geneva Bible) or the Holman, clearly a Baptist translation. In many of these, the works of the scholars had word choices... they also include footnotes about early or later texts. There might even be study notes and introductions to each book. There may be a slant in those notes that appear to be Calvinistic or Arminean, perhaps even Charismatic tongue speakers verse the more traditional. Every version bears a mark of either handled by Protestants or Catholics. So absolutely no on premise #2.


    Unlike some Protestants who say Catholics are on the fast track to hell, I recognize within mainline Protestantism... its Christology and theology of Trinitarianism, that these Protestants have every right to claim with the Catholics an authentic relationship with our Lord. So as to your later question "has this survivor been reconciled to God in your theology?" Yes. the WWII saved surviver has reconciled to God... in the core of our shared theology in the person of Christ and in the Trinity. But in matters not related to eternal salvation, he still may be carrying around some excess baggage. Since he is alone on the island, sharing his conviction and putting hist faith to the test on a social setting will limit his capacity. Salvation is important, but it is just as important to live the human experience in its potential, the way God created us not to just be people of God, but to be men and women, fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, producers and servers of God to the world. It is in this capacity of fullness that I believe the Catholic Church is more capable than the Protestants who only discuss the essentials or fundamentals of salvation.
    "Premise one is that the "saved survivor" receives reconciliation with God. True." Then you say, "This applies to all Christians, Catholic or Protestant. Your premise #2 is that such a person has done this without Catholicism or Protestantism. At this conjuncture, I disagree with you completely." In other words, you say you agree with this man's reconciliation to God, but then you immediately deny that his reconciliation is valid outside of your formula. You logic is not from God, it is a fleshly logic. It is of no value to you or those who read it.

  5. #30
    RGS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    The Councile of Trent anathematized anyone who said that a person is justified by faith alone. Is that what you believe?
    Of course I believe in justification by faith alone. Why would I care about the Council of Trent? But a better observation would be, why should you sell your soul to the Council of Anything?

  6. #31
    Columcille
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    Default Let's discuss Councils in depth under a new thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGS View Post
    Of course I believe in justification by faith alone. Why would I care about the Council of Trent? But a better observation would be, why should you sell your soul to the Council of Anything?
    Why should we follow the decision of the council of Jerusalem? Because it is found in Acts? Acts was written much later than the council, so apparently in the Christian community... a council, especially an ecumenical council, establishing doctrine and morals is to apply to the whole Church. Of course, you (being a Protestant) will naturally reject the Council of Trent. I say we should discuss that particular council in depth in the Catholic side of the WMBoard.

  7. #32
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGS View Post
    "Premise one is that the "saved survivor" receives reconciliation with God. True." Then you say, "This applies to all Christians, Catholic or Protestant. Your premise #2 is that such a person has done this without Catholicism or Protestantism. At this conjuncture, I disagree with you completely." In other words, you say you agree with this man's reconciliation to God, but then you immediately deny that his reconciliation is valid outside of your formula. You logic is not from God, it is a fleshly logic. It is of no value to you or those who read it.
    Apparently you did not read the rest of my examples regarding your premise that it can be done without Catholicism or Protestantism. If there is a bible on that island, it has in its translation and compilation of books a clear prism through which Catholicism and Protestantism have left their marks. If you take away the bible being found and replace it with a say an angelic vision, then only in such instances could we say it is without a mark of Catholicism or Protestantism. But are visions reliable without some evidence of conformity to truth?

    (addition follows) I mean after all, that the bible's greatest mark is how God over the milliniums of history with mankind reveals a longstanding relationship of truth. A person with only one vision like Muhammed or Joseph Smith has no means to demonstrate with prior revelation the consistency necessary to call their visions accurate, especially when they contradict prior revelation. The man on the island with such a vision would also face the similiar consequences. It would be better for him to not have a vision at all and see God through his creation as Romans 1 would indicate rather than having to find no way in which to test the vision as coming from the Holy Spirit or not.
    Last edited by Columcille; 12-12-2008 at 06:39 PM. Reason: additional paragraph to make clear conformity to truth question.

  8. #33
    Trinity
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    Hello Leslie,

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    Ok then, that is a good thing. I've applauded the Catholic Church in admitting that it has done wrong in the past.
    I forgot to mention that we apologized for what we have done to Galileo also.

    Pope marks Galileo anniversary, praises astronomy
    Sun Dec 21, 2008

    In 1992, Pope John Paul II apologized, saying that the denuncuation was a tragic error.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081221/...6UxfLK_Yqs0NUE
    Trinity

  9. #34
    RGS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    Apparently you did not read the rest of my examples regarding your premise that it can be done without Catholicism or Protestantism. If there is a bible on that island, it has in its translation and compilation of books a clear prism through which Catholicism and Protestantism have left their marks. If you take away the bible being found and replace it with a say an angelic vision, then only in such instances could we say it is without a mark of Catholicism or Protestantism. But are visions reliable without some evidence of conformity to truth?

    (addition follows) I mean after all, that the bible's greatest mark is how God over the milliniums of history with mankind reveals a longstanding relationship of truth. A person with only one vision like Muhammed or Joseph Smith has no means to demonstrate with prior revelation the consistency necessary to call their visions accurate, especially when they contradict prior revelation. The man on the island with such a vision would also face the similiar consequences. It would be better for him to not have a vision at all and see God through his creation as Romans 1 would indicate rather than having to find no way in which to test the vision as coming from the Holy Spirit or not.
    Obviously this conversation is over because you refuse to enter into it. You have no ability to speak anything other than confusion. Who is the author of lies?

  10. #35
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carabbio View Post
    Any Christian who ISN'T Either Romanist, or "Eastern Orthodox". Some folks make other hair-splitting distinctions, but "Protestant" essentially ONLY means "NOT Catholic".
    Interesting post. Very good point. But as Michael Medved said about Judaism is "we must define ourselves by what we are rather than what we are not." Essentially, to be Protestant is to say I am what I am not.

    And that's sad.

    But the many divisions comes from mere human beings trying to reinvent what God never changed.

    It has always been a matter of faith (which goes further back than Abraham. Paul cited him as the father of faith because in the Jewish mind he was the beginning of Judaism). Ironically in the letter to the Hebrews (more than likely written by Paul whose name was mud in Jewish circles at the time), the proof goes far earlier than Abraham:

    Hebrews 11
    1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
    4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
    5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
    6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
    8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
    9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
    10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
    11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
    12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in mul***ude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
    17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
    18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
    19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
    20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
    21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
    22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
    23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment.
    24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter;
    25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
    26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
    27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
    28 Through faith he kept the p***over, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
    29 By faith they p***ed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians ***aying to do were drowned.
    30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were comp***ed about seven days.
    31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
    32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
    33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
    34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
    35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
    36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
    37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being des***ute, afflicted, tormented;
    38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    The people of God have not changed in that sense. And the Church (ekklesia or ***embly goes back that far). See Exodus 12:6

    The calling of the Jewish people was to set aside a people who would bring into the world the written word and the word of God personified. At it was at great cost. And the physical covenants with the Jewish people have not changed (even in unbelief). But their eternal soul is not saved for being born Jewish.

    Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    Two Israels. One physical, one Spirit.

    Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    ...continued...
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  11. #36
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    ...continued:

    Romans 11:
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    All {Spirit} Israel will be saved.

    John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
    22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
    23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

    Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise {{"Jew" or Judah means "praise" see Genesis 29:35}} is not of men, but of God.

    Does this un-Judaize the Jews? No. A person born Jewish will be a physical Jew till death. What they are not is a Spirit Jew. They have the naural proclivity to become Spirit Jews (as Romans 11:21 indicates). But unbelief is a universal determination of fate / dispostion for Jew and Gentile alike:

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Only the covenants changed as the time to show mankind he could not religiously reach out to God (which is what the Law of Moses was about) to grace and mercy the Law of Christ saving us on the one condition that we simply believe him.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    1 Corinthians 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
    20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
    21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

    It's high time we stopped trying to reinvent the wheel as the Roman Catholics from Emperor Constantine onward have been trying... or as the Replacement movement (Reformation Movement), or the like. It's time we cease this spiritual iden***y crisis which has armed the devil with an ****nal of division and strife and confusion giving rise to cults and world religions that all claim to be Christian...

    It's time we stopped identifying ourselves by who we aren't and realize and accept who we are: Spirit Jews, Spirit Israel.

    Jeremiah 31:31 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
    32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.
    33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law {{1 Corinthians 9:21}} in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
    34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me {{ Jesus}}, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

    Galatians 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
    27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Galatians 6:15 Neither {{ physical}} circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.
    16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.

    When we realize this there will be unity, and the Protestant / Catholic rivalry won't even exist anymore. We need to set aside our humanist writings and pick up our Bibles.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  12. #37
    AllyManderson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Yes.

    "The Pope also apologized for the Inquisition, thus hitting not only Spain but Dante,..."
    http://wais.stanford.edu/Religion/religion_pope.html
    World ***ociation of International Studies, Stanford University, CA — PAX et LUX

    Protestants in Europe, in England and also in United States have done the same crimes.

    Please, before posting, do some research. Thank you.

    Trinity
    Why do you list England and Europe? England is part of Europe. England is the largest cons***uent country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom is a member of the European Union. The UK is European.

    This would be like saying "Protestants in North America, in Canada...". As a proud British citizen I do not like this manner in which people feel a need to give England seperate regional treatment.

    Roman Catholics and Protestants have done a great deal of harm to one another. The inquisition you must accept is one of the most noticeable. But, the inquisition was NOT Christian.

    I do not judge Catholics based on Previous Popes - just as I do not judge Jews on the death of Jesus Christ or blame all muslims for the terrorist attacks in the United Kingdom.

    Similarly, the Popes apology means nothing to me. As many Catholic might support such actions! (I know that they don't)

    The main thing about me as a Christian is that I like to hear from people not designated spokesman and leaders. The Popes apology means no more than an apology from you Trinity.

    But it if the fact that Catholics would place special importance on the word of the Pope that makes Protestants expect the Pope to apologise for every little thing.

    If you were to sit down and try to apologise for every misdeed of every Roman Catholic you would have as long a life as Noah. A similar amount to if you attempted to do the same for every failure of a Protestant.

    _________

    Another thing, You state that people should "do research". I hope that you do not continue to take this tone as you have proven yourself an intellectual I do not think it right for you to talk down to people in such a manner. By all means say "I suggest you look at..." "You may want to..." but do not state "do some research".

    The fact that you are smart is a great gift you have been given. Do not demand that other show the same. If someone is doing their best with the brain they are given you should not aim a petty **** towards them.

    You are far better than that.

  13. #38
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllyManderson View Post
    Why do you list England and Europe? England is part of Europe. England is the largest cons***uent country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom is a member of the European Union. The UK is European.
    I was referring to a different time of the history. Not about the modern Europe or the modern America. But about the period where there was conflicts and wars between England with Spain, France or Germany. To begin with Henry Vlll.

    Please be indulgent with my English because this is not my native language. Sometimes I can lack in clarifications.

    The fact that you are smart is a great gift you have been given. Do not demand that other show the same. If someone is doing their best with the brain they are given you should not aim a petty **** towards them.
    I agree. It is very easy to patronize. I am trying to correct this bad habit.

    Oliver Cromwell was also a very effective protestant inquisitor (ex: Ireland m***acre).

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 04-11-2009 at 06:26 PM.

  14. #39
    AllyManderson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    I was referring to a different time of the history. Not about the modern Europe or the modern America. But about the period where there was conflicts and wars between England with Spain, France or Germany. To begin with Henry Vlll.

    Please be indulgent with my English because this is not my native language. Sometimes I can lack in clarifications.



    I agree. It is very easy to patronize. I am trying to correct this bad habit.

    Oliver Cromwell was also a very effective protestant inquisitor (ex: Ireland m***acre).

    Trinity
    Now this is the problem that we have. Cromwell, who took over from the Monarchy, was ***isted by Scottish and Irish soldiers. The "English Civil War" was a very BRITISH war.

    To claim that Oliver Cromwell's misdeeds represent England and not Britain is, from my position as Scottish and British, unfair. Remember that the "English" monarchy overthrown also had its roots in Scotland and it was supported by many Scots as well.

    Henry VIII was supported by a great deal of Scottish money and Scottish soldiers.

    You can't talk about England without talking about Scotland - particularly after the Union of the Crowns.

  15. #40
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllyManderson View Post
    Now this is the problem that we have. Cromwell, who took over from the Monarchy, was ***isted by Scottish and Irish soldiers. The "English Civil War" was a very BRITISH war.

    To claim that Oliver Cromwell's misdeeds represent England and not Britain is, from my position as Scottish and British, unfair. Remember that the "English" monarchy overthrown also had its roots in Scotland and it was supported by many Scots as well.

    Henry VIII was supported by a great deal of Scottish money and Scottish soldiers.

    You can't talk about England without talking about Scotland - particularly after the Union of the Crowns.
    The simple truth is that Cromwell had targeted the Catholics. Many died and suffered great pains because of his anti-catholicism. Even after his death the consequences of his wars and politics were terrible, and especially for the Catholics of Ireland.

    "One of the worst famines in modern times in the Western world was the Irish famine of 1846 through 1849. It started as the result of a prolonged potato blight that over several years caused the nation’s potatoes to rot. While this occurred not only in Ireland but also in other parts of Europe, it had a devastating impact in Ireland. Four factors caused the disease to become a tragedy of enormous proportions: As a result of the British occupation and Cromwell’s wars, most of the Irish were peasants engaged in subsistence agriculture. The potato was their staple food. They had little income beyond whatever minuscule incomes they could make from the sale of the potato and other farm products. Second, they did not own their farmsteads, but were tied to Protestant or British landlords who insisted that they should continue to pay their rent even when no income could be obtained. As they could not pay, hundreds of thousands were evicted. Third, Ireland was not an independent country with its own government, which might have recognized its responsibility to take remedial action; Ireland was under British rule..." [p. 344-345]

    Encyclopedia of Genocide and Crimes against Humanity
    Edited by Dinah Shelton
    Thomson & Gale Encyclopedia
    Volume -2-, 2005, 1458 pages.

    http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-G...9599692&sr=1-1

    Dinah Shelton is the Patricia Roberts Harris Research Professor of Law at George Washington University Law School. Before joining George
    Washington in 2004, she taught international law and was director of the doctoral program in international human rights law at the University of Notre Dame Law School (1996-2004). Shelton is the author of three prize-winning books and has also served as a legal consultant to the United Nations Environment Programme, UNITAR, World Health Organization, European Union, Council of Europe, and Organization of American States.

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 04-13-2009 at 12:47 AM.

  16. #41
    TimLScheffer
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    Default Catholic means Universal...

    The First Protestor... Martin Luther... did not mean to begin a new branch of the Christian or Universal/Catholic Church...

    Martin Luther was simply protesting the Change in the Catholic or Universal Church by which,

    Church Tradition was elevated to a higher authority than the Holy Bible... ie God's Word.

    Luther was protesting the change... and thus dubbed a Protestant...

    The Catholic Powers that be refused to back off the position that Church Tradition and the Pope trumped The Bible where there was a conflict.

    In the last couple of Decades... Unfortunately.... Many of the Protestant Faiths have elevated themselves above Scripture... the Holy Bible... There are very few left that hold to the Protestant affirmation that the Bible is the True, Infallible, Inerrant Word of God.

    A few of the fallen... The ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America), not to be confused with
    WELCA or LCMS brands of Lutheranism

    The Methodists

    The Presbytarians

    The American Baptists... not to be confused with Southeran Baptists

    The Episcpalions or whoever you spell that...

    This is not an exhaustive list... I wish it was.
    Last edited by TimLScheffer; 06-28-2009 at 09:15 AM.

  17. #42
    GraftedIn73
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RGS View Post
    What is a protestant christian?
    A Protestant Christian is the recipient of two appellations that were originally intended to be slurs...

    "And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." Acts 11:26

    "And the Christians were first called Protestants in Germany." Diet of Speyer 15:29

    ( http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Diet_of_Speyer )

    Neither term was meant to be flattering, but both stuck. Evangelical is the term commonly meant to include all the non-RC churches arising from the Reformation.

    There is a lot in this thread about who contributed what to the growth of the Church. I have no problem thanking each group for their contributions, nor rejecting false teachings, regardless from which group it arose. None of the major branches of Christendom are free from error. Nor are any individual Christians, myself most definitely included. Names by which we identify various groups serve to provide a rapid mental framework by which to identify and begin the process of comprehending one another. Unfortunately, that is usually the first step in attacking one another, rather than seeking to find unity.

    I for one agree with JohnD, even though he considers my some of my views heretical. All true believers, though all ages are the Seed of Abraham, The Israel of God, Members of the Body of Christ. I do not agree with ALL of the doctrinal distinctives of any man-made groups within the Christian Church, not even Calvinism. I believe that there are true Christians - True Spiritual Israelites - True Children of Abraham, to be found within most of the groups that have named the name of Christ through the centuries.

    To be sure, there have been heretics, and heretical groups wihtin the pale of Christianity, but in our zeal to remove the tares, sadly, we have destroyed an incomprehensible amount of wheat.

    GI73

  18. #43
    RGS
    Guest

    Default No One on this Thread Has Answered My Question

    Read post 6 on this thread. Then go to post 9, where it says: He has received reconciliation with God and he has done this without Catholicism or Protestantism. Do you deny this?

    Where is the answer to this question. Has no one the wisdom to give a yes or a no?


  19. #44
    Decalogue
    Guest

    Default Light is on, Nobody home!

    Quote Originally Posted by RGS View Post
    What is a protestant christian?
    What is a computer user that can't figure out what Google or Bing is ?

    Or a person without a dictionary or access to a Public Library...?


    Aaarggh! Have you read or heard a single book or tape of Dr. Walter Martin ? There are links on the first page of this website. He authored a book ***led: Essential Christianity. Get it! Tolle Lege!

    btw --- I would have given a softer/more warm and cuddly answer, but I read the other posts you put on the Thread and it appears you did not wish for an honest answer, but rather just to stir controversy. If I'm wrong then read the following suggestions.

    Simply put: A Protestant Christian is one that Protests the Bishop of Rome - il popa - saying that he is "The Vicar of Christ" and head of all Christianity.

    Protestants (aka - Reformers) flourished during the 1500's because of an invention known as the Printing Press. When common people could read a Bible in their home language (rather than Latin) they also joined the Reformers in following the tenets of Holy Scripture rather than man-made Romish ritualistic religion.

    All of this is available to you in books you can buy or books for check-out from your Public Library. If you are on a budget, then get Halley's Bible Handbook. It has a Church History section. If you have some extra money ( or a bigger library) then read "Christianity thru the Centuries" by Earle Cairns, Zondervan Publications.

  20. #45
    Jean Chauvin
    Guest

    Default Wow

    Wow,

    A very simplified answer.

    The material issue was/is justification.
    The formal issue was authority.

    These were the two main issues of the Reformation. Luther saw that Rome was ripping people off so they could build St. Peter's, among other things. But the core of it started doctrinally, the ripping off is simply what you would expect to find in paganism. That's what pagans do.

    And of course, Rome did not like people exposing it. So Rome murdered them. Sometimes they would utterly torture them. Or Cut their stomachs and put pig food in their stomach so the pigs could eat them to death (see Fox's book of Martyrs).

    But often, they burned them alive by making the ***gots as hot as they could be.

    Rome is evil. The Reformers knew this. ALL of their lives were in danger. But through their fruit of boldness, God used them for His glory.

    Respectfully,

    Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

  21. #46
    alanmolstad
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RGS View Post
    What is a protestant christian?
    "protestant" = a person who protests.

    Another way to say it is "I protest"

  22. #47
    Grandma
    Guest

    Default

    Interesting.

    John 10:14

    I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

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