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Thread: If John the Revelator & The Three Nephites are still alive, why was there a ‘Great Ap

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    Senior Member grindael's Avatar
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    Default If John the Revelator & The Three Nephites are still alive, why was there a ‘Great Ap

    If John the Revelator & The Three Nephites are still alive, why was there a ‘Great Apostasy’?

    Joseph Smith & Oliver Cowdery looked in Smith’s peepstone & got this ‘revelation’ in 1829:

    1 AND the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
    2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
    3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
    4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.
    5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
    6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
    7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.
    8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.

    Here it says that John would NEVER DIE, and that he would ‘tarry’ until JESUS COMES IN HIS GLORY, so that John might do a ‘greater work’ among men. If this is true, then how could there be a Great Apostasy of Jesus Church? It says in verse 7 that John had the keys of the ministry until Jesus came back in his glory. So if John already had the keys, why would they need to be conferred upon Joseph Smith? Why the need for a restoration at all, if John was still on the earth and COULD NOT DIE?

    Using the same ‘peepstone’, Smith looked into it and got the Book of Mormon where it describes the Three Nephites, who were three of the Apostles Jesus supposedly chose in America:

    “And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not. They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not. And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them. And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good. Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the great and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ; Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.” (3 Nephi, 28)

    Now Smith says that they were caught up to heaven, and when they came back they were changed into an ‘immortal state’. Some Mormons call this being ‘translated’. And what does it say about these men? That they will do ‘great and marvelous works’ and bring to Jesus ‘many souls’. When did they do this, if there was no Church on the earth until the time of Joseph Smith? Again we ask the question, why would there not be some kind of Church even here in America, if the three Nephites were here all along? If all of these Apostles who were floating around had the Priesthood, then why did THEY not confer it upon Smith? Again, why did they not keep Jesus Church alive? Were not these men just as worthy as anyone else to run the Church of Jesus Christ? In the light of these ‘revelations’ by Smith, one must abandon the idea of a Great Apostasy, for there were ‘authorized’ ministers of Jesus already on the earth, who were told by Jesus they would bring many souls to him. It is ludicrous to believe that with authorized representatives of Jesus on earth SINCE HIS RESSURECTION, that there would have been a great apostasy, given the fact that these men were immortal and could never die. Why then, was there a need for Smith at all?
    "I have the truth, and I defy the world to contradict me" - Joseph Smith

  2. #2
    stemelbow
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    Obviously John and the three Nephites did not participate as a Church during all of those years of apostasy. Its pretty simple.

    love,
    stem

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    Senior Member grindael's Avatar
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    How did John do a 'greater work' then? If he had the priesthood and the Nephites had the priesthood, why did it need to be restored at all? It was already here! The whole story makes no sense.
    "I have the truth, and I defy the world to contradict me" - Joseph Smith

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    stemelbow
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    Certainly they were all exceptions. No big deal, IMO. They didn't share the priesthood, nor does it specify that they held the keys of the priesthood throughout the apostasy. the restoration was necessary...that's all we know.

    love,
    stem

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    Senior Member grindael's Avatar
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    "...and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come."
    "I have the truth, and I defy the world to contradict me" - Joseph Smith

  6. #6
    stemelbow
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    yah...those specific keys. There are varying keys. he is referring to the keys for their particular ministry it seems.

    love,
    stem

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    Senior Member grindael's Avatar
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    The Keys Are Here [Should be THE KEYS ARE ALREADY HERE]

    When the Lord gave the keys of the kingdom of God, the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood, of the apostleship, and sealed them upon the head of Joseph Smith, He sealed them upon his head to stay here upon the earth until the coming of the Son of Man. Well might Brigham Young say, “The keys of the kingdom of God are here.” They were with him to the day of his death. They then rested upon the head of another man—President John Taylor. He held those keys to the hour of his death. They then fell by turn, or in the providence of God, upon Wilford Woodruff.

    I say to the Latter-day Saints the keys of the kingdom of God are here, and they are going to stay here, too, until the coming of the Son of Man. Let all Israel understand that. They may not rest upon my head but a short time, but they will then rest on the head of another Apostle, and another after him, and so continue until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven to “reward every man according to the deeds done in the body” [see History of the Church, 1:245]. …

    Those are the keys to the MINISTRY, Stem.

    http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...____&hideNav=1
    "I have the truth, and I defy the world to contradict me" - Joseph Smith

  8. #8
    stemelbow
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    Read the passage in context, G. it is specifying which ministry.

    "And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and thebkeys of this ministry until I come."

    love,
    stem

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    Default Of course, oh well maybe too.

    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Obviously John and the three Nephites did not participate as a Church during all of those years of apostasy. Its pretty simple.

    love,
    stem
    Lets C, one is dead and three are Joseph Smith jr. imaginary friends.....

  10. #10
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Obviously John and the three Nephites did not participate as a Church during all of those years of apostasy. Its pretty simple.

    love,
    stem
    LOL! Obviously, John DIED and the "three Nephites" NEVER existed, Stemmy. The incredible leaps of blind superstition you must make to keep the fantasy of Mormonism afloat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Obviously John and the three Nephites did not participate as a Church during all of those years of apostasy. Its pretty simple.

    love,
    stem
    Christian tradition holds that John was the last surviving of the Twelve Apostles, the only one to die a natural death and died around the age of 94. Jesus never promised that John would live till He returned.. You need to read the often quoted passage again it say right in it that Jesus never said John would live until He came again.. (John 21:23).. It is amazing that you can twist the scripture to make it say exactly what it denies of it's self.. IHS jim

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    Blueskies
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Obviously John and the three Nephites did not participate as a Church during all of those years of apostasy. Its pretty simple.

    love,
    stem
    Stem,
    How can one twist what was stated in your own BOM? Was Christ lying to the 3 Nephites when he told them that they could remain and that they would prophesy etc. and that: "and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come." Does the words, KEYS not mean anything to you? Does it not mean, the Priesthood? Mormonism uses that word constantly to refer to the Priesthood so if there were 3 and of course 4 (John the Beloved) who were granted to remain here on earth to supposedly continue the work, then there could NEVER have been an apostasy. According to LDS beliefs, there was no Priesthood on the earth, so no ordinances could be done, so the need for Joseph Smith to come and save the world. NOPE, that makes your BOM contradictory and makes Christ a liar. I know that Christ would not lie, so his word was true. So, where are these 4 men and why haven't they been doing all these wonderful works they were told they would do? Can you come up with a good answer? I know what I believe. Since Christ is our ONLY High Priest, and he is everywhere present. An apostasy never happened. He has been with us for over two thousand years. He told us he would never leave us nor forsake us. Are you denying that he said these words as well?

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