8 Points of Krishna Conciousness: point #2

[dave52_47]

Discussion Point #2


#2. “We are not our bodies but eternal spirit souls, parts and parcels of God
(KRSNA). As such, we are all brothers, and KRSNA is ultimately our
common father.”

Dave

[bhuvana-mohan dasa]

Discussion Point #2


#2. “We are not our bodies but eternal spirit souls, parts and parcels of God
(KRSNA). As such, we are all brothers, and KRSNA is ultimately our
common father.”

Dave

Amen, Dave!......You'll notice that everything classed as "sin" in the Bible represents some form of immoderate physical sense-gratification- encouraging animalistic rather than spiritually-motivated behavior. We in ISKCON are panentheists (as opposed to "pantheists"), because while we are qualitatively "one" with God, (made in His image, as per Genesis)we are and will forever remain His quan***ative subordinates (acintya bheda-abheda tattva), or "Simultaneous Oneness and Difference".

ys,
bmd.

[Scripturefocus]

Amen, Dave!......You'll notice that everything classed as "sin" in the Bible represents some form of immoderate physical sense-gratification- encouraging animalistic rather than spiritually-motivated behavior. We in ISKCON are panentheists (as opposed to "pantheists"), because while we are qualitatively "one" with God, (made in His image, as per Genesis)we are and will forever remain His quan***ative subordinates (acintya bheda-abheda tattva), or "Simultaneous Oneness and Difference".

ys,
bmd.

What he doesn't mention is that the ISKCON cult he represents regulates even the manner in which it's members are to sleep (not on the stomach), and even has bathroom rules. Here they are:

Nails should always be clipped short. This should not be done in one’s bedroom but in the bathroom and the clippings should be flushed away down the toilet or sink, or thrown in the rubbish bin provided. Evacuating, nail cutting, teeth brushing, shaving, etc., should be done before showering.
In the toilets and bathrooms, the devotees should always be dressed in a gamcha.
Take at least two showers a day (or more if you have to pass stool at another time) — the early morning shower can be cool to help invigorate the system and should be efficient but quick. It is also important to take a 'mental bath' by chanting Hare Krishna as one takes one’s physical bath.
Tilak should be applied in all twelve places after showering.
After doing the following activities one is considered unclean and therefore needs to take a shower:
a. sleeping more than one hour
b. brushing teeth
c. shaving
d. passing stool (Iskcon.com)

The cult also regulates conjugal relations between spouses, and they ceremonially cleanse their idols with a mixture containing cow's urine.

[Heart2Heart]

What he doesn't mention is that the ISKCON cult he represents regulates even the manner in which it's members are to sleep (not on the stomach), and even has bathroom rules. Here they are:

Nails should always be clipped short. This should not be done in one’s bedroom but in the bathroom and the clippings should be flushed away down the toilet or sink, or thrown in the rubbish bin provided. Evacuating, nail cutting, teeth brushing, shaving, etc., should be done before showering.
In the toilets and bathrooms, the devotees should always be dressed in a gamcha.
Take at least two showers a day (or more if you have to pass stool at another time) — the early morning shower can be cool to help invigorate the system and should be efficient but quick. It is also important to take a 'mental bath' by chanting Hare Krishna as one takes one’s physical bath.
Tilak should be applied in all twelve places after showering.
After doing the following activities one is considered unclean and therefore needs to take a shower:
a. sleeping more than one hour
b. brushing teeth
c. shaving
d. passing stool (Iskcon.com)

The cult also regulates conjugal relations between spouses, and they ceremonially cleanse their idols with a mixture containing cow's urine.

These requirements are as bad as Buddhism.

[Trinity]

There were many clean and unclean acts or behaviors in the Leviticus.

A ritual washing of the body.
Leviticus 15:16-18

Shaving or getting a hair cut caused ritual impurity.
Leviticus 19:27

Trinity

[Scripturefocus]

There were many clean and unclean acts or behaviors in the Leviticus.

A ritual washing of the body.
Leviticus 15:16-18

Shaving or getting a hair cut caused ritual impurity.
Leviticus 19:27

Trinity

However, as Christians, Christ fulfilled the Old Testament requirements - both the ritual and moral requirements - through His sacrifice. The problem is that ISKCON is essentially an authoritarian cultic system. If those joining the cult are rational adults, and know ahead of time what they are in for, that's fine with me. It would be the same as an individual joining, say, the Discaled Carmelite order. However, you have children in this group - and as you may not know, the Krishnas have been investigated for child abuse - in fact there is quite a history of it found here:

http://www.surrealist.org/gurukula/

This problem, along with the regulation of how you sleep, clip your nails, and how many showers a day you must take (even after sleeping for only one hour), make this a group which needs special attention. People need to be fully informed before joining something like that. Cults tend to recruit people into their sect by manipulative psychological techniques. They usually hone in on those who feel disenfranchised or marginalized in some way. People looking for validation will often look in all the wrong places, and are easy targets for the "love bombing" strategies one finds in authoritatian religious systems - especially of the "guru" types. One friend of mine became involved in the Sai Baba cult and actually went to India and became a devotee. The stories she tells will make your hair stand on end. She actually has physical scars on her body received during episodes of abuse. We are not dealing with Western morality where freedom is valued. We are dealing with something often sinister and controlling to an extent never experienced by most of us.

[Heart2Heart]

However, as Christians, Christ fulfilled the Old Testament requirements - both the ritual and moral requirements - through His sacrifice. The problem is that ISKCON is essentially an authoritarian cultic system. If those joining the cult are rational adults, and know ahead of time what they are in for, that's fine with me. It would be the same as an individual joining, say, the Discaled Carmelite order. However, you have children in this group - and as you may not know, the Krishnas have been investigated for child abuse - in fact there is quite a history of it found here:

http://www.surrealist.org/gurukula/

If the abuses didn't occur, I wonder if the ex-Hare Krishna members would continue to be members of the cult.

[Scripturefocus]

If the abuses didn't occur, I wonder if the ex-Hare Krishna's would continue to be members of the cult.

I don't know. It takes a certain type of person (at least in this country and other western countries) to be attracted to the polytheism of the east. I believe that idolatry is an act of rebellion. God might even allow someone He has called to salvation to wander in the muck and mire of idolatry a while - God generally allows us to get a fill of our lusts, and then we come to understand that our desires and will are dung compared to what God has prepared for us.

I do know this, John 6:

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

All that are called, will come, for they are the Lord's sheep. Cults cannot keep the Lord's sheep from Him, they can only interfere - for a while.

[sunofmysoul]

What he doesn't mention is that the ISKCON cult he represents regulates even the manner in which it's members are to sleep (not on the stomach), and even has bathroom rules. Here they are:

Nails should always be clipped short. This should not be done in one’s bedroom but in the bathroom and the clippings should be flushed away down the toilet or sink, or thrown in the rubbish bin provided. Evacuating, nail cutting, teeth brushing, shaving, etc., should be done before showering.
In the toilets and bathrooms, the devotees should always be dressed in a gamcha.
Take at least two showers a day (or more if you have to pass stool at another time) — the early morning shower can be cool to help invigorate the system and should be efficient but quick. It is also important to take a 'mental bath' by chanting Hare Krishna as one takes one’s physical bath.
Tilak should be applied in all twelve places after showering.
After doing the following activities one is considered unclean and therefore needs to take a shower:
a. sleeping more than one hour
b. brushing teeth
c. shaving
d. passing stool (Iskcon.com)

The cult also regulates conjugal relations between spouses, and they ceremonially cleanse their idols with a mixture containing cow's urine.

now...i'm curious...are these things...required by all? or more devoted temple dwellers...and are they a do this or you will burn in hell or....
do this and you will have less disease...less illness, and more time to devote to service...?

its interesting because in the Baptist guidelines we have some pretty interesting "laws" also...no dancing...no deck of cards...
and lots of cool stuff...

[sunofmysoul]

These requirements are as bad as Buddhism.

or some of the old testament laws....eh?
though it is interesting that we are finding that many of these laws (though not understood at the time and seeming rather silly) had medicinal /health value....

[Chris Q]

now...i'm curious...are these things...required by all? or more devoted temple dwellers...and are they a do this or you will burn in hell or....
do this and you will have less disease...less illness, and more time to devote to service...?

its interesting because in the Baptist guidelines we have some pretty interesting "laws" also...no dancing...no deck of cards...
and lots of cool stuff...

If you compared them with the rules for Trappist monks they would seem pretty liberal.

[bhuvana-mohan dasa]

now...i'm curious...are these things...required by all? or more devoted temple dwellers...and are they a do this or you will burn in hell or....

i have yet to see a "bathroom guard" even in an ISKCON temple, soms & i have been to several (bathrooms in ISKCON temples). i have yet to be taken aside or interviewed by anyone of any status within the ISKCON organizational structure as to whether i was personally fulfilling all these guidelines.

i do know this, however.....the Lord Himself will remove ALL uncleanness and all sin from the heart of one who, in all sincere humility and at***ude of surrender, will call out to Krishna even once asking Him to do so. i also know that wanting to regulate his own activity, and to bring it into alignment with His plan for us, can be taken as a pretty good indicator of the authenticity of that person's humility.

Those who see no need for regulation of acivity in their lives will scarcely hold together long as a society (much less a civilization).

ys,
bmd.

[sunofmysoul]

However, as Christians, Christ fulfilled the Old Testament requirements - both the ritual and moral requirements - through His sacrifice. The problem is that ISKCON is essentially an authoritarian cultic system. If those joining the cult are rational adults, and know ahead of time what they are in for, that's fine with me. It would be the same as an individual joining, say, the Discaled Carmelite order. However, you have children in this group - and as you may not know, the Krishnas have been investigated for child abuse - in fact there is quite a history of it found here:

http://www.surrealist.org/gurukula/

ah...yes...I am familiar with this...
although one must keep in mind...that child abuse is not found in all who are Krishnas, and certainly not exclusive to this religion.
unfortunately it has been found (as i have illustrated with you elsewhere)
in many other religions including Christianity...(including baptist...)
my point here is that one cannot disclaim an entire religion because some have committed crimes...
(for instance i am sure many would not throw out creation because on of its largest and well know defenders is a criminal in jail right now....)

This problem, along with the regulation of how you sleep, clip your nails, and how many showers a day you must take (even after sleeping for only one hour), make this a group which needs special attention.

yes...i can see that they are certainly crossing the line here....
the requirements are illegal and dangerous and could cause harm to many!!!
oh wait...are we talking about grooming? my mistake.....

[Scripturefocus]

[QUOTE=sunofmysoul;5431]ah...yes...I am familiar with this...
although one must keep in mind...that child abuse is not found in all who are Krishnas, and certainly not exclusive to this religion.
unfortunately it has been found (as i have illustrated with you elsewhere)
in many other religions including Christianity...(including baptist...)
my point here is that one cannot disclaim an entire religion because some have committed crimes...

[B]Baptists, Catholics, and many others have committed abuse - however note the Krishna cult is relatively small, it is very authoritarian (even to telling you how many showers to take, how to clip your nails, when to have sex with your spouse). When you have child abuse in such a small group, but consistent enough to merit investigation, you have a major problem. Anyway, it's something to keep in mind. Even though some safeguards are in place to prevent the abuse that many little Krishna cult children experienced in years past, it's still is in the equation when you think of the lifestyle imposed by the cult. Suppression of sexual expression in the conjugal relationship is something that will ultimately impact the relationship between parents/children. Anyway, here is some more information:

http://www.culthelp.info/index2.php?...o_pdf=1&id=893

and more: http://www.harekrsna.org/gbc/black/childabu.htme:

(for instance i am sure many would not throw out creation because on of its largest and well know defenders is a criminal in jail right now....) yes...i can see that they are certainly crossing the line here....
the requirements are illegal and dangerous and could cause harm to many!!!
oh wait...are we talking about grooming? my mistake.....

Have you reviewed the bathroom rules of the cult?

Nails should always be clipped short. This should not be done in one’s bedroom but in the bathroom and the clippings should be flushed away down the toilet or sink, or thrown in the rubbish bin provided. Evacuating, nail cutting, teeth brushing, shaving, etc., should be done before showering.
In the toilets and bathrooms, the devotees should always be dressed in a gamcha.
Take at least two showers a day (or more if you have to pass stool at another time) — the early morning shower can be cool to help invigorate the system and should be efficient but quick. It is also important to take a 'mental bath' by chanting Hare Krishna as one takes one’s physical bath.
Tilak should be applied in all twelve places after showering.
After doing the following activities one is considered unclean and therefore needs to take a shower:
a. sleeping more than one hour
b. brushing teeth
c. shaving
d. passing stool

You're talking about a lot more than grooming there.

[bhuvana-mohan dasa]

[QUOTE=Scripturefocus;5458]

ah...yes...I am familiar with this...
although one must keep in mind...that child abuse is not found in all who are Krishnas, and certainly not exclusive to this religion.
unfortunately it has been found (as i have illustrated with you elsewhere)
in many other religions including Christianity...(including baptist...)
my point here is that one cannot disclaim an entire religion because some have committed crimes...

[B]Baptists, Catholics, and many others have committed abuse - however note the Krishna cult is relatively small, it is very authoritarian (even to telling you how many showers to take, how to clip your nails, when to have sex with your spouse). When you have child abuse in such a small group, but consistent enough to merit investigation, you have a major problem. Anyway, it's something to keep in mind. Even though some safeguards are in place to prevent the abuse that many little Krishna cult children experienced in years past, it's still is in the equation when you think of the lifestyle imposed by the cult. Suppression of sexual expression in the conjugal relationship is something that will ultimately impact the relationship between parents/children. Anyway, here is some more information:

http://www.culthelp.info/index2.php?...o_pdf=1&id=893

and more: http://www.harekrsna.org/gbc/black/childabu.htme:

(for instance i am sure many would not throw out creation because on of its largest and well know defenders is a criminal in jail right now....) yes...i can see that they are certainly crossing the line here....
the requirements are illegal and dangerous and could cause harm to many!!!
oh wait...are we talking about grooming? my mistake.....

Have you reviewed the bathroom rules of the cult?

Nails should always be clipped short. This should not be done in one’s bedroom but in the bathroom and the clippings should be flushed away down the toilet or sink, or thrown in the rubbish bin provided. Evacuating, nail cutting, teeth brushing, shaving, etc., should be done before showering.
In the toilets and bathrooms, the devotees should always be dressed in a gamcha.
Take at least two showers a day (or more if you have to pass stool at another time) — the early morning shower can be cool to help invigorate the system and should be efficient but quick. It is also important to take a 'mental bath' by chanting Hare Krishna as one takes one’s physical bath.
Tilak should be applied in all twelve places after showering.
After doing the following activities one is considered unclean and therefore needs to take a shower:
a. sleeping more than one hour
b. brushing teeth
c. shaving
d. passing stool

You're talking about a lot more than grooming there.

i'm wondering, if for the benefit of some of us (who place value in clarity in what we're reading, and attribution of material being read to its proper source, if you might not care to avail yourself of the quote-box?

[bhuvana-mohan dasa]

[QUOTE=Scripturefocus;5458]

ah...yes...I am familiar with this...
although one must keep in mind...that child abuse is not found in all who are Krishnas, and certainly not exclusive to this religion.
unfortunately it has been found (as i have illustrated with you elsewhere)
in many other religions including Christianity...(including baptist...)
my point here is that one cannot disclaim an entire religion because some have committed crimes...

[B]Baptists, Catholics, and many others have committed abuse - however note the Krishna cult is relatively small, it is very authoritarian (even to telling you how many showers to take, how to clip your nails, when to have sex with your spouse). When you have child abuse in such a small group, but consistent enough to merit investigation, you have a major problem. Anyway, it's something to keep in mind. Even though some safeguards are in place to prevent the abuse that many little Krishna cult children experienced in years past, it's still is in the equation when you think of the lifestyle imposed by the cult. Suppression of sexual expression in the conjugal relationship is something that will ultimately impact the relationship between parents/children. Anyway, here is some more information:

http://www.culthelp.info/index2.php?...o_pdf=1&id=893

and more: http://www.harekrsna.org/gbc/black/childabu.htme:

(for instance i am sure many would not throw out creation because on of its largest and well know defenders is a criminal in jail right now....) yes...i can see that they are certainly crossing the line here....
the requirements are illegal and dangerous and could cause harm to many!!!
oh wait...are we talking about grooming? my mistake.....

Have you reviewed the bathroom rules of the cult?

Nails should always be clipped short. This should not be done in one’s bedroom but in the bathroom and the clippings should be flushed away down the toilet or sink, or thrown in the rubbish bin provided. Evacuating, nail cutting, teeth brushing, shaving, etc., should be done before showering.
In the toilets and bathrooms, the devotees should always be dressed in a gamcha.
Take at least two showers a day (or more if you have to pass stool at another time) — the early morning shower can be cool to help invigorate the system and should be efficient but quick. It is also important to take a 'mental bath' by chanting Hare Krishna as one takes one’s physical bath.
Tilak should be applied in all twelve places after showering.
After doing the following activities one is considered unclean and therefore needs to take a shower:
a. sleeping more than one hour
b. brushing teeth
c. shaving
d. passing stool

You're talking about a lot more than grooming there.

i'm wondering, if for the benefit of some of us (who place value in clarity in what we're reading, and attribution of material being read to its proper source), if you might not care to avail yourself of the quote-box option? (If or when you might decide to do so, i will ask that this criticism be deleted from the discussion. Thanks........

ys,
bmd.

[sunofmysoul]

Have you reviewed the bathroom rules of the cult?

Nails should always be clipped short. This should not be done in one’s bedroom but in the bathroom and the clippings should be flushed away down the toilet or sink, or thrown in the rubbish bin provided. Evacuating, nail cutting, teeth brushing, shaving, etc., should be done before showering.
In the toilets and bathrooms, the devotees should always be dressed in a gamcha.
Take at least two showers a day (or more if you have to pass stool at another time) — the early morning shower can be cool to help invigorate the system and should be efficient but quick. It is also important to take a 'mental bath' by chanting Hare Krishna as one takes one’s physical bath.
Tilak should be applied in all twelve places after showering.
After doing the following activities one is considered unclean and therefore needs to take a shower:
a. sleeping more than one hour
b. brushing teeth
c. shaving
d. passing stool

You're talking about a lot more than grooming there.

well...perhaps more grooming than we are accustumed to in our culture...
but many cultures have differences...
and these...for goodness sakes could not cause harm to anyone...
if anything...they would be considered extra prevention of virus and germs and disease...
(i was taught about the nail clippings by my mother...its a good hygiene tip...
we had to always clip them over a trash can...)

if we were going to rule this as dangerous because of how strict the hygiene regimen is...i am afraid we would have to do the same for the military...

honestly...i do not find this list offensive or dangerous in the least...
perhaps a bit of a hassle...but that would be the case of any fully devoted servant who lived as monk or devotee.(in many religions...)
(OR...in the military...)

[Scripturefocus]

[QUOTE=sunofmysoul;5422]now...i'm curious...are these things...required by all? or more devoted temple dwellers...and are they a do this or you will burn in hell or....

I guess when you pack up and move the cult's temple you'll find out. That seems to be where you're headed. Before I did, however, I'd take time to read Nori Munster's book, "Betrayal of the Spirit."


its interesting because in the Baptist guidelines we have some pretty interesting "laws" also...no dancing...no deck of cards...
and lots of cool stuff...:cool

Exactly what Baptists told you not to dance or play cards?

[sunofmysoul]

I guess when you pack up and move the cult's temple you'll find out. That seems to be where you're headed. Before I did, however, I'd take time to read Nori Munster's book, "Betrayal of the Spirit."

i thought it was a pretty simple straightforward question.....if you don't know the answer it is okay to just say so....in fact i find honesty quite appealing...

Exactly what Baptists told you not to dance or play cards?

it is well known...that it is in the guidelines/bylaws...
a quick google brought up this one...i'll be glad to add more if required....
ARTICLE V

We accept and adopt the following Statement of Separation:

Pastors, teachers, workers, staff, etc. are required to maintain a good Christian testimony in their public and private life. They are specifically required to abstain from smoking, playing cards, dancing, use of slang language, wearing of immodest apparel, public swimming pools, the use of alcoholic beverages, attendance at movies or other questionable entertainment, purchase of or listening to rock music, meetings of secret societies, and other worldly practices that would hurt their testimony. Members are to be taught and encouraged to do the same. (Romans 12:1,2; 14:13, 21-23; I Cor. 6:12, 19, 20; 8:9-13; 10:23-31.)
this one was found here...http://www.harvestibc.org/cons***ution.html

[Jill]

Discussion Point #2


#2. “We are not our bodies but eternal spirit souls, parts and parcels of God
(KRSNA). As such, we are all brothers, and KRSNA is ultimately our
common father.”

Dave

1. There is only one Holy God, Jehovah, the Creator of all, and no eternal life without Him.

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.
Isa 43:10-11


It is interesting to note that unlike Jesus, Krishna was not an actual (human born) historical person, he was the eighth incarnation (or avatar) of the Hindu god Vishnu. This means that as a "god" he was reborn over and over into a human body. (See The Kingdom of the Occult, Chapter 4, Ancient Paganism)


Vishnu as Krishna was never even a holy being, in fact, he is described as "stained with great crimes." (Robert Caldwell, Christianity Explained to a Hindu, p.7, http://books.google.com/books?id=zq5...esult#PPA7,M1)


"Prablada is represented in the Vishnu Purana, as thus addressing Vishnu: 'Thou art knowledge and ignorance, truth and falsehood, poison and ambrosia.'" (Ibid.)


"The first genocide of Mongoloids occurred in the Panchala region near Indraprastha. Arjun, Krishna, and Agni burned the Khandav forest, and, making sure that there was no route left for their escape, they burnt all the Nagas alive in the forest." (See M. M. Ninan, Hinduism, p.58, http://www.scribd.com/doc/416127/Hin...ristian-Heresy)


This is the KRSNA you believe to be our "common father"--a being who is not holy or even reliably good.


2. Humans are created beings, not eternal souls. Eternal life is a gift of God through the death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ.

"The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." Gen 2:7

"For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

[Jill]

Excellent points, Scripturefocus. I've yet to see anyone adequately answer them.

However, as Christians, Christ fulfilled the Old Testament requirements - both the ritual and moral requirements - through His sacrifice. The problem is that ISKCON is essentially an authoritarian cultic system. If those joining the cult are rational adults, and know ahead of time what they are in for, that's fine with me. It would be the same as an individual joining, say, the Discaled Carmelite order. However, you have children in this group - and as you may not know, the Krishnas have been investigated for child abuse - in fact there is quite a history of it found here:

http://www.surrealist.org/gurukula/

This problem, along with the regulation of how you sleep, clip your nails, and how many showers a day you must take (even after sleeping for only one hour), make this a group which needs special attention. People need to be fully informed before joining something like that. Cults tend to recruit people into their sect by manipulative psychological techniques. They usually hone in on those who feel disenfranchised or marginalized in some way. People looking for validation will often look in all the wrong places, and are easy targets for the "love bombing" strategies one finds in authoritatian religious systems - especially of the "guru" types. One friend of mine became involved in the Sai Baba cult and actually went to India and became a devotee. The stories she tells will make your hair stand on end. She actually has physical scars on her body received during episodes of abuse. We are not dealing with Western morality where freedom is valued. We are dealing with something often sinister and controlling to an extent never experienced by most of us.

[sunofmysoul]

Excellent points, Scripturefocus. I've yet to see anyone adequately answer them.

Originally Posted by Scripturefocus View Post
However, as Christians, Christ fulfilled the Old Testament requirements - both the ritual and moral requirements - through His sacrifice. The problem is that ISKCON is essentially an authoritarian cultic system. If those joining the cult are rational adults, and know ahead of time what they are in for, that's fine with me. It would be the same as an individual joining, say, the Discaled Carmelite order. However, you have children in this group - and as you may not know, the Krishnas have been investigated for child abuse - in fact there is quite a history of it found here:

http://www.surrealist.org/gurukula/

This problem, along with the regulation of how you sleep, clip your nails, and how many showers a day you must take (even after sleeping for only one hour), make this a group which needs special attention. People need to be fully informed before joining something like that. Cults tend to recruit people into their sect by manipulative psychological techniques. They usually hone in on those who feel disenfranchised or marginalized in some way. People looking for validation will often look in all the wrong places, and are easy targets for the "love bombing" strategies one finds in authoritatian religious systems - especially of the "guru" types. One friend of mine became involved in the Sai Baba cult and actually went to India and became a devotee. The stories she tells will make your hair stand on end. She actually has physical scars on her body received during episodes of abuse. We are not dealing with Western morality where freedom is valued. We are dealing with something often sinister and controlling to an extent never experienced by most of us.

I'm sorry Jill.
may i ask which points you believe to be excellent here that are unaddressed?
I am very curious if someones faith, or religion is considered debunked (to yourself and or others) if they have accusations of child abuse raised against them in some way or another.

To be fair, and honest...one must look at the accusations made and realize this is not against the whole religion or faith, and ALL of its followers...
they have not even been found guilty in a court of law yet....

On 2001-SEP-28, the Honorable Sam A. Lindsay, Judge of the United States District Court in Dallas, TX, dismissed the case.

"An independent organization, Children of Krishna, was formed in 1996 to provide grants for education and counseling for Krishna youth. In 1998, a professionally staffed Child Protection Office (CPO) was established to investigate all allegations of abuse, to provide assistance for youth, and to assure that Krishna communities comply with requirements for child safety and abuse prevention." 1

It has since been re-filed in state courts. There are now 94 alleged victims of abuse involved in the court case.

but even if....there are victims...(whom have my deepest sympathy and love)
that is not a "rebuttal" against a religion of belief system....

it can be found within every religion (as i have posted to scripture focus on another board...) and to pick JUST ONE>>>>>

* http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot....-of-child.html
*http://www.gazette.net/stories/07300...41_32374.shtml
*

Baptist Church Child Sexual Abuse
Dallas Attorney for Baptist Child Sexual Abuse Victims

Many child victims of sexual abuse in the Church are silenced — either by the bullying and shunning tactics of the church or by their own shame. Sadly, this situation allows the perpetrator to continue his pattern of abusing and molesting children. If you were a victim of child sexual abuse in the Baptist Church or any other denomination, we encourage you to come forward. You have options under both our criminal and civil law systems.

Many Baptists are surprised to learn that the sexual abuse of children is not just a problem associated with the Catholic Church. According to an Associated Press article, three insurers of protestant churches received more than 260 reports of children being sexually abused by ministers and other church officials in a single year. This compares to 228 credible accusations against Catholic clergy in a year, according to conservative records produced by the Catholic Church.

One of the remarkable things about child sex abuse in the Baptist Church is how many people knew about it in specific cases. Accusations of clergy abuse are documented at the convention level. The Baptist General Convention of Texas has a confidential file of known child sexual abuse offenders within its membership. Until recently, this file included the names of convicted child molesters who remained on the registry of ministers until church officials were confronted by reporters from the television show 20/20

.http://www.tkmlawfirm.com/PracticeAr...xual-Abuse.asp


My intentions here are to only encourage a level playing ground...
and not allow "low blows" of child abuse be used as a reason to
consider another religion or belief system as a "dangerous cult"
for to do so for THIS reason would mean we must look at the Baptist in the same light....
as put quite neatly by the "Got Questions" site...
"The ISKON has been accused of great evils in this regard, even though such allegations, were they true, should not be hastily attributed to ISKON doctrine specifically but rather to the practices of some Hare Krishnas. A similar example could be made, for Christians, with the moral downfall of certain Christian Leaders and Televangelists."

as far as the other issue...of trimming nails short and excessive bathing...
i have yet to see this confirmed by anyone...(including our own live Hare Krishna )
I have however found the listed requirements to accept formal initiation...
here...

The congregational chanting of the maha-mantra, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, as promoted by Sri Caitanya, is accepted by the Vedas as the most effective means of self-purification in this age. The Vedas describe the mantra as a prayer to the Lord, "Please Lord, engage me in Your service".

Devotees may accept formal initiation into the chanting of the Holy Name vowing to abstain from intoxication, gambling, illicit sexual connections and the eating of meat, fish or eggs. ISKCON members believe indulgence in the aforementioned activities disrupts physical, mental and spiritual well-being, and increases anxiety and conflict in society. At the time of initiation devotees also agree to chant a prescribed number of mantras each day.

www.iskcon.com/index.html

with love,
somsy

[bhuvana-mohan dasa]

1. There is only one Holy God, Jehovah, the Creator of all, and no eternal life without Him.

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.
Isa 43:10-11

"The Vedic scriptures state that spiritual life begins when one inquires into the nature of the absolute truth, the Supreme Godhead. Gaudiya Vaisnavas are monotheists and know the personality of Godhead as Krishna, the All-attractive. But it is also recognised that the Supreme has unlimited names such as Rama, Buddha, Vishnu, Jehovah, Allah, etc. The ultimate goal of Gaudiya Vaisnavism is to develop a loving relationship with the Supreme Godhead. "

http://www.iskcon.com/about/philosophy.html

It is interesting to note that unlike Jesus, Krishna was not an actual (human born) historical person, he was the eighth incarnation (or avatar) of the Hindu god Vishnu. This means that as a "god" he was reborn over and over into a human body. (See The Kingdom of the Occult, Chapter 4, Ancient Paganism)

The word "avatar" literally means, in Sanskrit, "descent". The Bhagavata Purana (Srimad Bhagavatam), the very largest of all 18 Puranas (consisting of 18,000 verses {divided into 12 Cantos, or Books} and therefore known as "the Mahapurana") describes the modalistic expansion of the Unborn Krishna into the Karanodakasayi Vishnu and Ksirodakasayi Vishnu Forms and the subsequent birth of "demigods" (aka "angels with jobs").

There is archeological evidence to support claims for Krishna's historical existence..........

Vishnu as Krishna was never even a holy being, in fact, he is described as "stained with great crimes." (Robert Caldwell, Christianity Explained to a Hindu, p.7, http://books.google.com/books?id=zq5...esult#PPA7,M1)


"Prablada is represented in the Vishnu Purana, as thus addressing Vishnu: 'Thou art knowledge and ignorance, truth and falsehood, poison and ambrosia.'" (Ibid.)

Jill, i'm just wondering: do you truly believe that a case can be made against a belief system by merely citing a proselytization manual (targeting said system's adherents) as a reference? ...........

ys,
bmd.