Our Lord Jesus Christ

[W.Hytchins]

Why can I never find this expression within the pages of the WTBTS publications or hear it from the mouth of any Jehovahs Witness when speaking with them.

It is a natural and endearing expression found repeatedly in Gods word and essential to our salvation.

WH

[Trinity]

Hello WH,

Why can I never find this expression within the pages of the WTBTS publications or hear it from the mouth of any Jehovahs Witness when speaking with them.

Perhaps because Jesus is seen as the first creation of Jehovah. For them, Jesus and Michael the archangel are the same being. In brief, a creature of the Father cannot be called Lord. A being created is less holy than God. Jesus is seen as a being who is lesser than the Father.

Also the Jehovah name is formed with consoles of the tetragrammaton (YHWH) and the vowels of the noun Adonai (Lord).

Yahowah = Jehovah = The Father

Trinity

[W.Hytchins]

Thanks for your response Trinity, an interesting comment.

I wonder then how the average JW understands Romans 10;9 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved". Surely the converse of this is true that if you do not confess that Jesus is Lord then you will not be saved.

But then as 1 Cor 12;3 says that "... no one can say that "Jesus is Lord" except by Holy Spirit".

We all know their view on that. There are huge problems for the rank and file don't you think.

WH

[Trinity]

Thanks for your response Trinity, an interesting comment.

I wonder then how the average JW understands Romans 10;9 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved". Surely the converse of this is true that if you do not confess that Jesus is Lord then you will not be saved.

But then as 1 Cor 12;3 says that "... no one can say that "Jesus is Lord" except by Holy Spirit".

We all know their view on that. There are huge problems for the rank and file don't you think.

WH

"Christ is Lord and Savior, but not God (Jehovah) incarnate, not a God-man but inferior to God, not part of a Godhead. He was a created spirit being, God's only begotten son, sent to Earth as a perfect human. His sacrifice became the "ransom" price to redeem mankind from sin and death. God created all in heaven and on Earth through Christ, the "master worker," God's servant. After Christ's resurrection by God, he was "exalted" to a level higher than angel."
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2001...s-Believe.aspx

I am not very knowledgeable about the Jehovah Witnesses. Perhaps they do not share the same definition about the lord ***le. Jesus as an inferior lord to the Lord God. Because for them Jesus is not God, and they do not worship him. He is not the Lord with a big L.

They do not pray Jesus but God only. According to them to pray an angel (Jesus) is an idolatry. That may explain why they are not hot about the Lord ***le for Jesus. For them, Jesus is possibly a lord but with a small l. Not the Lord. A lesser lord (i.e. as the kingship).

Trinity

[PostTribber]

Why can I never find this expression within the pages of the WTBTS publications or hear it from the mouth of any Jehovahs Witness when speaking with them.WH

elementary, my dear Hytchins. Jesus is not 'their' Lord!

[TRiG]

Why can I never find this expression within the pages of the WTBTS publications or hear it from the mouth of any Jehovahs Witness when speaking with them.

As an ex-Witness, I suspect the reason may be less sinister than you might imagine. I have heard some Witnesses (including my own mother, who has been a Witness all her life) use the phrase. They do view Jesus as their Lord, and would be happy to say so, if you asked them. However, Witnesses set great store by being different from other branches of Christianity. They like to be as different as possible. This difference is even reflected in such non-essentials as language and phraseology.

They have no theological reason not to use terms such as pastor, church, and hymn. Their use of the replacement terms elder, Kingdom Hall, and Kingdom song is merely idiosyncratic, being different just for the sake of it.

In a similar vein, since the phrase Our Lord Jesus Christ is used so much by other Christian denominations (sometimes overused to the point of meaninglessness, I'd say), Witnesses tend to avoid it. But it's just a tendancy. They will say it, sometimes.

TRiG,
ex-Witness.

[johnd]

Good point. Lord to them means merely master while Lord to us means Jehovah (YHVH) often transliterated as "LORD" in English Old Testaments using the Jewish practice to subs***ute the word "adonai" (lord) for YHVH in the text.

[Berean]

Why can I never find this expression within the pages of the WTBTS publications or hear it from the mouth of any Jehovahs Witness when speaking with them.

It is a natural and endearing expression found repeatedly in Gods word and essential to our salvation.

WH

The phrase "our Lord Jesus Christ" is listed in the Witnesses' version of the Bible called the New World Translation in Romans 5:11:

"And not only that, but we are also exulting in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."

There are other places as well, but just because the Witnesses say "Lord" doesn't mean they view Jesus as Lord AND God as Christianity does. Jesus is Michael the archangel for the Witnesses. Michael is referred to as a prince in the book of Daniel. All the while, the Witnesses will give this angel who is a prince the ***le of "king". A prince and angel doesn't the deserve the ***le of "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS" (Rev 19:16).

[Berean]

Thanks for your response Trinity, an interesting comment.

I wonder then how the average JW understands Romans 10;9 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved". Surely the converse of this is true that if you do not confess that Jesus is Lord then you will not be saved.

But then as 1 Cor 12;3 says that "... no one can say that "Jesus is Lord" except by Holy Spirit".

We all know their view on that. There are huge problems for the rank and file don't you think.

WH

What must be understood is that for the majority of JW's who make up the "great crowd", they view the Bible as not being written for them, but for the "anointed class" (the 144,000). They are the only ones who are required to be born again and receive "the spirit". JW's can call Jesus "lord". They call him "a god" so for them it's not a problem.

[TheSword99]

If any of you have ever read the New World Translation (the JW bible) you will see the changes they have made. In John 1:1 Jesus is known as a god (note the small "g")

When Thomas realized who Jesus was and acknowledged His deity when he said: My Lord and my God, the JW will tell you that Thomas was just making an exclamation, similar to when we say, Oh my gosh! They will tell you that Thomas was not claiming that Jesus was God as is the Father.

[johnd]

I believe you will find most people are so thoroughly convinced by what they want to believe is the truth, the actual truth has little chance of getting through to them through what purports to be true and they hold desperately to as truth.

Everyone thinks they have it. That they have cornered it, or submitted to it. And it is only due to a God who makes many concessions that any of us are saved at all. Maybe if we weren't so smug about always being correct about every little thing we might win more to the truth who hold to error.

If Baptists did not defend mere water baptism as though it were essential for salvation. If Pentecostals eased up a bit on speaking in tongues being mandatory. Church of Christ non musical worship, Catholics... well I could go on about them for quite some time (and I also only skimmed the surface of Protestant denominations).

All have their pet doctrines and defend the church organization to the death... all the while it is the church organism Christ died for. This is not about compromising core doctrines because they define the genuine God and authentic Savior and without them we are lost because we worship the wrong gods.

And this is not so much about ecumenical "can't we all just get along?" as it is can't we all just get back to the way the Church was in the first Century? The way it was meant to be before the Roman infiltration / take over, and the Protestant Reformation not nearly enough...

The point being when we adopt lessor error than the cults errors (but errors just the same) and try to defend these errors along with truth we diminish the truth we are defending at best and totally obscure the truth and affirm the greater errors of the cultists at worst.

And it serves the devil well when we do the truth such disservice.

[johnd]

I changed my icon here because I believe it represents both major covenants of the Bible. The seven branch menorah was the temple menorah (before the nine branched came with the festival of lights in the time between the testaments). It is also symbolic of Revelation 1:20 & 2:1. Remember the Greek New Testament was written according to Hebrew thought processes.

A symbol that ties in as Messianic "I AM the vine, ye are the branches." for one example. And the two branches along side the center are Revelation 11:4... a theme carried throughout the Bible Genesis 18:2, Zechariah 4:3 &4:12, Matthew 17:3, Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27, Luke 23:33, John 20:12, Acts 1:10.

And from the times of the Roman infiltration and take over all things Hebrew were methodically expunged from the faith. Typically it was done in the name of riding the faith of legalism. But the baby was thrown out with the bathwater because it never occurred to folks that God's ordinances and doctrines were put into the faith prior to "Judaism" and are bigger than both covenants... because they are doctrines and ordinances and feasts that all point to the Savior Messiah.

So when we get rid of something God commissioned in the faith (and spirituality loathes a vacuum) then guess what fills the void! Paganism. Humanism.

And we try to defend our version of paganism because we believe it to be true and the rest of what we believe to true and in fact is truth gets muddied by the untruths we believe to be true.

This hamstrings the Gospel.

[ChrisLaRock]

Thanks for your response Trinity, an interesting comment.

I wonder then how the average JW understands Romans 10;9 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved". Surely the converse of this is true that if you do not confess that Jesus is Lord then you will not be saved.

But then as 1 Cor 12;3 says that "... no one can say that "Jesus is Lord" except by Holy Spirit".

We all know their view on that. There are huge problems for the rank and file don't you think.

WH

They would say that only applies to the 144,000 - even though the text itself doesn't even imply that. This is why so many JWs are unsure of their standing before God. The god of the Watchtower judges them based upon works and time spent in ministry.