Was God hoping to make another Eve for Adam?

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Adam's sin was far wore than Eve's she was deceived, Adam chose to disobey. IHS jim

I thought there were no degrees of sin in your world, James??

And it seems you are afraid to address the issue that, once Eve partook of the fruit and before Adam did, he had to make a choice to either obey one commandment (multply and replenish) or the other (don't eat the fruit). He could no longer do both. So essentially, according to James, Adam was FORCED to choose one of the commandments to follow because of Eve's choice. But yet Adam was worse since he CHOSE his path. And yet, either path that Adam chose would've been violating one of the commandments.

Adam had no way out.

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

I thought there were no degrees of sin in your world, James??

And it seems you are afraid to address the issue that, once Eve partook of the fruit and before Adam did, he had to make a choice to either obey one commandment (multply and replenish) or the other (don't eat the fruit). He could no longer do both. So essentially, according to James, Adam was FORCED to choose one of the commandments to follow because of Eve's choice. But yet Adam was worse since he CHOSE his path. And yet, either path that Adam chose would've been violating one of the commandments.

Adam had no way out.

Of course Adam had a "way out." All he had to do was to intercede for Eve as Jesus has done for us and God would have forgiven her, but Adam partook of the fruit, thus disobeying God and all of creation fell.

The important thing is that sin came into the world through Adam and not Eve and you seem to be overlooking that fact.

Also Adam was not forced to do anything. God told them to be fruitful and multiply and not to eat of the tree and God does not contradict Himself, so it was expected of Adam and Eve to do both.

Andy

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

Of course Adam had a "way out." All he had to do was to intercede for Eve as Jesus has done for us and God would have forgiven her, but Adam partook of the fruit, thus disobeying God and all of creation fell.

Are you saying that it was possible for Eve to NOT suffer the consequences of eating the fruit?
Can you support that theory somehow? That God would've forgiven Eve and not kicker her out of the garden.

The important thing is that sin came into the world through Adam and not Eve and you seem to be overlooking that fact.

Okay.

Also Adam was not forced to do anything. God told them to be fruitful and multiply and not to eat of the tree and God does not contradict Himself, so it was expected of Adam and Eve to do both.

Andy

Right...God told them to do X and Y. But when Eve chose to disobey Y, Adam had to choose if he was going to obey Y (and thus be seperated from Eve when she receives the consequence of God. Since God doesn't lie, He had to follow through with the consequence) or if he was going to obey X and therefore would need to do the same thing that would send him with Eve.

[akaSeerone]

Are you saying that it was possible for Eve to NOT suffer the consequences of eating the fruit?
Can you support that theory somehow? That God would've forgiven Eve and not kicker her out of the garden.

I already did and you seem to have missed it. The Bible says sin came into the world by one man...the man Adam. Creation did not fall when Eve ate, it fell when Adam did.

Right...God told them to do X and Y. But when Eve chose to disobey Y, Adam had to choose if he was going to obey Y (and thus be seperated from Eve when she receives the consequence of God. Since God doesn't lie, He had to follow through with the consequence) or if he was going to obey X and therefore would need to do the same thing that would send him with Eve.

It is your false ***umption that Eve would have been separated from Adam had Adam not of partaken of the tree and that mod edit
All Adam had to do was obey God and not partake of the tree and sin would not have entered the creation at that time.

Andy

[Vlad III]

mod edit

It's too bad that you mod edit cannot have a conversation about something with a Mormon without making insults and disparaging comments to them.

[James Banta]

[Vlad III;63879]I thought there were no degrees of sin in your world, James??

And it seems you are afraid to address the issue that, once Eve partook of the fruit and before Adam did, he had to make a choice to either obey one commandment (multiply and replenish) or the other (don't eat the fruit). He could no longer do both. So essentially, according to James, Adam was FORCED to choose one of the commandments to follow because of Eve's choice. But yet Adam was worse since he CHOSE his path. And yet, either path that Adam chose would've been violating one of the commandments.

Adam had no way out.

What are you talking about I addressed that completely.. Adam took the fruit. You are correct he did have a way out. The trouble is he didn't take it. Adam didn't have to do what he did.. There is no "what if" to it he sinned.. He could have said no and counted on the Lord to solve the problem but he didn't. He tried to solve it himself. He let his love for his wife replace his love for God. He betrayed God and did things his own way..

None of what I have explained here is a "what if" it is a "what is". The same goes for us. We can look to God to solve the problem for us or try to fix it ourselves.. One way, allowing God to be Lord, is the way of life. Trying to fix things with God by your own effort is the way of sin and death.. IHS jim

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

mod edit

It's too bad that you mod edit cannot have a conversation about something with a Mormon without making insults and disparaging comments to them.

mod edit

And why can't you accept the fact that sin came into creation through Adam and God didn't want Adam to sin and expected Adam and Eve to multiply before they sinned?

Your god may be a god of what ifs, my God is the God of Yes and Amen, not conjecture. mod edit

If there are any what ifs to be considered it should be what if you accepted the fact that Smith was a lying con man and false prophet and because of his behavior and lying about visits from God and the gold plates and moroni and etc, I'll bet he didn't even believe in God. After all, who in there right mind would come up with the God bashing and Christian bashing nonsense he did if he actually believed in God and knew that one day he would have to answer for his deceit?

Smith tried to reduce God to man's level and that is idol worship, not Christianity!

Andy

[Sentinus]

Too bad most LDS here have no interest in real dialogue, I still await CFR's in numerous thread (Two in this one alone), not from you as of yet but frustrating nonetheless.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Was God hoping to make another Eve for Adam? --?

No.



But there are some people, in many different faiths,both christian and non, who are swept up in a story about Adam's "other wife"

and so from time to time, we see this idea about God making another wife for Adam.


I reject the whole idea.


But....but I will say that when I read the story I see it a bit differently than many others see it.
I see it as all a plan that Adam had to be able to eat from the tree and not die.....I see it as a plan to put all the blame onto Eve,

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

I recently spoke to a JW who ***erted (like every orthodox Christian I have come across also ***erts), that Adam did wrong in following Eve, and didn't need to choose to follow her because God could have made another Eve for him.

Do all orthodox Christians believe this?

Was God hoping to make another Eve for Adam? --And make as many as it took to find an Eve that would never yield to temptation?

Adam sinned...we are told over and over that sin came to this world via Adam...

Eve on the other hand is said to have been "deceived".



So this means that Adam clearly knew better, and yet chose to sin,whereas Eve was misled and ended up fooled into doing wrong.

[alanmolstad]

All we know for sure are the things the story of Adam and Eve tells us.

This is what we know: - We know that Eve ate first,then gave to her husband that was right there "with her"

This is key to understanding the "why?"question.....and many people miss this in the story.

Adam was right there with Eve at the time, (he was not off doing stuff.)

This means that when Eve was talking to the snake(Satan) that Adam was also right there the whole time listening.


This is interesting because Adam was there when Eve spoke the error to Satan about not being allowed to "touch" the forbidden fruit.
Eve added this part, and Adam who clearly knew full well that that as wrong, says nothing?

Why Adam does not correct his wife's error?

Satan does not correct Eve as well.


So you got Adam and Satan keeping their mouth's shut while they both likely know that what Eve just said was in error.

Why did Adam not say anything?.......it does not say.

We don't know why he kept his mouth shut.


All we got is a guess...
I'm going to guess therefore as to the reason why Adam did not speak up and correct Eve's error.

My answer is - "Adam had a plan"

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

All we know for sure are the things the story of Adam and Eve tells us.

This is what we know: - We know that Eve ate first,then gave to her husband that was right there "with her"

This is key to understanding the "why?"question.....and many people miss this in the story.

Adam was right there with Eve at the time, (he was not off doing stuff.)

This means that when Eve was talking to the snake(Satan) that Adam was also right there the whole time listening.


This is interesting because Adam was there when Eve spoke the error to Satan about not being allowed to "touch" the forbidden fruit.
Eve added this part, and Adam who clearly knew full well that that as wrong, says nothing?

Why Adam does not correct his wife's error?

Satan does not correct Eve as well.


So you got Adam and Satan keeping their mouth's shut while they both likely know that what Eve just said was in error.

Why did Adam not say anything?.......it does not say.

We don't know why he kept his mouth shut.


All we got is a guess...
I'm going to guess therefore as to the reason why Adam did not speak up and correct Eve's error.

My answer is - "Adam had a plan"

This is a really interesting interpretation of this chapter. It could also mean that Adam was with her in the Garden of Eden and not directly beside her when she ate of the fruit. Looking up the Hebrew, the term "with her" is not there at all. It goes literally, husband (iysh), and eat (akal). I think the "with her" is typical of Hebrew (from what I have learned) or a qualifier--what man? The man with her?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

...... Looking up the Hebrew, the term "with her" is not there at all......

Where did you find that?

In many bible translations they will put the added words in Brackets [] or in italic

So what Bible translation are you using that shows "with her" was added?



Also, if it is added, I think its strange that so many bible commentators have not pointed this out to students?
http://www.studylight.org/commentary/genesis/3-6.html



Perhaps Im not looking at the same source that you are, but I looked at this in a lot of sources and they all do confirm that "with her" is in the text.

Most all the commentators actually go out of their way to talk about "with her" and while they may disagree with me as to its meanings, I have yet to find one that says its been added....http://biblehub.com/genesis/3-6.htm

[alanmolstad]

no word on that?

[alanmolstad]

well?


Well I have no reason to expect an answer I guess, so Im just going to build on what I have learned about this section of the Bible over the years from my study.

I believe that the words "with her" are in the text and that they are telling us that Adam was right there 'with her" when the events of the story took place.

Now in the many commentaries that talk about the words "with her"a lot of them will then attempt to change the meanings to "with her" and have it seem like Adam was not actually right there with Eve.
But they don't do this based on the text or the word meanings, rather they base this change only on the context that they simply don't understand.

The many commentaries just don't see how Adam could be with Eve at the time and not have spoken up?

They don't see why Adam kept his mouth shut when Eve clearly makes the error in what she says to the Satan.?

So that is why a lot of Bible teachers will try hard to find a way to get Adam off into the distance at this part of the story.
They need Adam to be missing because if Adam is there the way the text teaches they simply don't understand why he acted the way he did?????


Well..to that I just say this..."Let the Bible tell us what it says"

The bible clearly tells us that Adam with right there "with her" at the time.
Thats what the Bible says thats what I believe.

[MickeyS]

Hmmm, what sort of plan do you think Adam had?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Hmmm, what sort of plan do you think Adam had?

well, Lets look what Adam knew...
and then lets look what he did knowing what he knew.



First what did he know about the Apple?...

He knew that to eat was to die..... but he also knew that there was much to desire in eating.

And lets remember, the tree was planted right in the middle of the garden.


So Adam has this tree he sees all the time, he cant help but always have it on his mind.
He knows it would be great to eat,,,good for food, and to make one wise about good and evil, and would totally change his life...But he also knows that if he eats it he is going to die.

Thats what Adam knows....





Is that all Adam knows?
Well....there is the conversation he heard going on between Eve and the Snake.
Adam was there "with her" and so Adam heard Eve say to the Snake that they were not to "touch" the apple.
Now from the story so far we know that while the Lord had told Adam the law concerning the tree and the apple, we also know that God never actually told Eve this law.

So we can understand that when Eve talked to the snake about the law, she was just telling what she had been told by the only person that actually was told the law by god...her husband Adam.

Thus we have this problem....
Eve was never told the law by God.
God only told the Law to Adam...
and when Eve tells what the law is to the snake she adds this part about not touching the apple.

Thus,(as we know that Adam was there when Eve said this to the snake) he knew first-hand that what Eve just said was in error.

Adam knew that Eve said something to the snake that was wrong.



That is what Adam knew.....

[alanmolstad]

Now....knowing what Adam knew...what did he do?


First, he is right there with his wife Eve when she says something that Adam knew in his heart was wrong about not being allowed to touch the apple....and yet he does....nothing!


Adam does not speak up to correct his wife.

Knowing full well she was making an error, he says nothing to help her out.

Knowing that she was adding to the law, he does not disagree with her.




Now look at this from Eve's point of view too.
Eve was never told by God what the law was concerning the tree and the apple, and so all she knew is what she had been told by Adam .
And, Adam is standing right there with her as she is talking, and so there is no way to pretend that she wanted to add something to the law on her own....nor can we say she just made a mistake,



So.....what does it mean?

It means to me that based on what Adam knew and what he did, that Eve had no clue she was telling the snake something that was wrong.

It means that when Adam heard Eve say this error to the snake, and said nothing, he had a reason for keeping his mouth shut.



and what was the reason?
What was the plan that Adam had?
What was the point behind his not saying anything to correct his wife?

That answer comes at " The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."



Lets just take a look at this verse...
The most important part is that when you put yourself in the place of Adam, knowing what Adam knew....and then look at what he does here, the reason and the plan of Adam become totally clear...

"The woman"
"she gave me"



Adam knew to eat was to die....

Adam needed a way to eat and not die.

The words he speaks to God "The women" and "she gave me" point us to the only conclusion we can come to that shows us the true reason Adam has acted the way he did all throughout this whole story...


Adam needed a scapegoat.



When Adam was alone in the garden he never ate the apple....he knew it would mean death.
Adam changed the law that he spoke to Eve.....and nothing happened.

Eve repeated this error to the snake, and nothing happened.

That was a very good test....a way to test how much he can get away with.


I think this gave Adam the confidence to keep going with his plan and eat and just get all the blame onto Eve....

[alanmolstad]

this is why the Bible never really puts the blame of eating the apple onto Eve...
The Bible tells us that Adam sinned....but it says that Eve was deceived.

Over and over in the Bible we read that Eve was deceived.

While we might just ***ume that Eve was deceived by the snake....I think there is another level to this deception going on that involves Adam as well.


From the text, and from reading the text we can support the idea that Adam seems to have worked with the Snake and both deceived Eve.







So in this one story we actually have a kinda guide to how Satan deals with humans.

Adam wanted to eat and not die.
Satan wanted Adam to eat and fall into sin.
Eve was just there, and was used by both Adam and Satan.


Satan cast doubt in Eve's mind as to what God had said.
Adam misinformed Eve as to what God had said.

[alanmolstad]

and....being the weekend...no new posts?

[MickeyS]

Yeah, people probably have better things to do all weekend then check up on your posts lol...

Wow, that's a lot, you've really thought about this.

So in your mind, Adam used cunning, deceitfulness and manipulation. Do you really think Adam would have been capable of that kind of thinking and scheming before eating of the fruit??? To be able to craft a plan like that, one must have experience to compare these actions to. The first thing a child will do is be completely honest and speak their mind. It's only after they've had an experience where honesty got them in "trouble" or didn't give them the outcome they desired that they even think to lie next time.

Who taught Adam how to lie and manipulate, because without knowledge and experience, he wouldn't even think to do what you're suggesting. How could he??

But lets get down to the simplest way we know they weren't together. Adam tells God that EVE talked him into eating the fruit. And God believed him.
"17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree.."

You don't believe God wouldn't know if Adam had been present during Satans presentation do you? You think that Adams crafty little trick fooled God??

[MickeyS]

As far as the discrepancy between the not "touching" the fruit. Doesn't it make much more sense that either Eve added that exaggeration naturally because she was expressing the seriousness of not eating the fruit...OR, that Adam made the embellishment to Eve out of love for her because he wanted to make sure she didn't go near the fruit? I find these much more plausible than an elaborate scheme to throw his wife under the bus. You're a strange cat lol

[alanmolstad]

well......where do i start?

The first thing that stands out is the comment about kids telling the truth at first and only later learning to lie.

Thats wrong....


Kids lie...children tell lies as a normal part of being who they are.....telling a lie is natural...tell the truth is the thing that must be actually taught.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

As far as the discrepancy between the not "touching" the fruit. Doesn't it make much more sense that either Eve added that exaggeration naturally because she was expressing the seriousness of not eating the fruit...OR, that Adam made the embellishment to Eve out of love for her because he wanted to make sure she didn't go near the fruit? I find these much more plausible than an elaborate scheme to throw his wife under the bus. You're a strange cat lol

It was wrong....
What Eve said was wrong...

Regardless of anything else we might try to say about it, it was wrong.
We can agree on that correct?


If it was wrong, and it was concerning the Law of God,,,then its not just a little mistake, its a huge SIN!

So.....we got Eve openly committing a sin , right in front of both the Snake and Adam....


Who corrects her?



Lets look at this another way and see why no one did correct her.

What was the main attack of the Snake?..
The first main attack was to cast doubt on what God had said..
I quote:""Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"



So, the first words of the Snake point us to the real thing going on between Adam and Eve...and that was the fact as we find out in a moment when Eve tells what the Law is that Adam was telling a lie to Eve about what God said...

Eve was being lied to...

Eve was being "deceived" as the Bible tells us over and over.

Satan brings up the issue when he asks "Did God really say_______?"

Satan was not just making conversation....
And while Eve did not catch the thing Satan was pointing to, Adam had to make the connection, for Adam knew that he had taught Eve things that God had not actually said....

So the moment Adam heard Satan say this he knew he was caught....
But Adam did not know if he was in trouble yet...

So Satan was letting Adam know he was in on it,,,Satan was in on the lie.....,and would help.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

because he wanted to make sure she didn't go near the fruit?l

To lie with good intentions?....let us do evil that good may come?....

I don't think so.

Think about this one point for a moment..."What was Adam's ***?"


Yes I know he named all the animals, but what was Adam's real *** at the time?


The answer is that God placed the man into the protected garden to tend to it.
This means that Adam was there to care for all the things inside the garden..including the tree of good and evil...
He just could not eat from it...
But his *** was to look after it, tend to it, and care for it...

So to do his *** people had to be able to touch the things they are working to care for,,,

So....when Adam came out with the idea "don't touch"...it had to be something else that he had in mind...

Adam had a plan.....

This all comes out later when God tells the women the results of this story..."He will rule over you"



Think about that for a moment...
"He will rule over you"


If you drop back in the story and read what life was like at the start, you see that BOTH the man and the woman were to RULE over the earth...
There is nothing about the man ruling the woman to....they were equal....

But now things are told to the woman differently...

She will desire her husband...
she will do so much for him,,,
she will die for him,,
even the act of giving the apple to the husband shows us that she was doing all she could to help her husband..
she shared food
She never had any thought at all of keeping it for herself...she shared...

She shared because she loved him ...

But the result is only pain for her...

Although she would die for him,,,he will treat her only as just another part of the creation he gets to rule over.

Gone is the equality they were in God's plan....




So when God said to the woman,"and he shall rule over you",,he was not pronouncing a judgement, rather he was just telling the women what the women really knew was the truth between her and her husband...

The woman knew this was the truth the moment her husband pointed at her as being at fault and guilty of death.
She saw him do this....and knew he aimed to place all the blame onto her.

She knew he aimed to get her killed to save her own life...


yet even then, she would still desire the relationship she had with him at the start...









What should have Adam done?
The answer to that is that Adam should have done the thing that Eve would have wanted him to do,,,,what she longed for him to do.

When he knew they were caught by God, Adam should have stood in front of his wife...said "I and I alone have sinned"
taken all the blame, and begged God not to hold his wife guilty...
Adam should have offered his own life up to protect his wife....

in many ways..Christ on the cross heals this flaw in man...for Christ does do what Adam failed to do.
Christ took all the blame so that his bride would live.