What does it take for complete forgiveness?

[Billyray]

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."
Mark Champneys http://www.mormonsneedhope.com/

Do LDS agree with Mark's statement?

[James Banta]

It shall come to p*** that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am (D&C93:1)

By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them (D&C 58:43)

We are to confess all our sins to our Heavenly Father. If we forsake these sins, he will forgive (D&C 61:2)

It is quite clear that the LDS church teaches that unless a person forsakes their sins they can't be forgiven yet I have never met a single member of the LDS church that will tell me that they have forsaken sinning. Each one tells me that they are doing the best they can, or the goodie "I'm working on it". It is interesting to know that they are working on it instead of confessing to God that they are sinners and need Him to recreate in them a new creation that has the righteousness of Jesus. Mormonism refuses to admit that sin still lives in the body of death we all walk in. That we do that we would not and don't do that we would, thereby truly following Paul in that admission (Romans 7:19).. We have all sinned Christian have agreed with God and know that we are unworthy in ourselves for the blessings and gifts of God. But in Jesus we are more than conquerors.. If we had to wait to receive God's forgiveness until we had forsaken our sins not one person would ever be forgiven and we would all end up in the lake of fire.. Thank You Lord Jesus for giving those of us who will trust in You Your salvation and the right to be Your Child.. There is no way to praise You enough.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."
Mark Champneys http://www.mormonsneedhope.com/

Do LDS agree with Mark's statement?

It really would help in answering this statement to have an idea of what non-LDS Christians believe about forgiveness. Does forgiveness of a particular sin come to non-LDS Christians because they confess and ask for forgiveness all the while continuing in that particular sin? Can someone be forgiven of adultery while they still participate in it?

In answer to your question, yes, I believe that true repentence of a particular sin comes when we have forsaken that particular sin.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

In answer to your question, yes, I believe that true repentence of a particular sin comes when we have forsaken that particular sin.

Thanks for your honesty.

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

If you look at the ramifications of this statement it means that in order to be totally forgiven requires a sin free life. This raises the question, can anyone meet this standard?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you look at the ramifications of this statement it means that in order to be totally forgiven requires a sin free life.

---To become a forgiven murderer, I'd say that it's common sense that you must stop murdering people, as a starter. Do you disagree?

This raises the question, can anyone meet this standard?

--CHRISTIAN doctrine is that virtually ANYONE can be forgiven except sons of perdition. Do you disagree?

Moroni wrote: "...if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

LDS believe that thanks to God's grace and Jesus' atonement, it IS possible for people to forsake ANY sin if the want it badly enough and they ask God for help. Do you disagree?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

To become a forgiven murderer, I'd say that it's common sense that you must stop murdering people, as a starter. Do you disagree?

I disagree because according to Mormonism you can't be forgiven of murder.

D and C 42:18 "And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."

Originally Posted by nrajeff

LDS believe that thanks to God's grace and Jesus' atonement, it IS possible for people to forsake ANY sin if the want it badly enough and they ask God for help.

I agree with you that this is the LDS position that you are capable of keeping all of the commandments if it is something that you really want to do.

1 Nephi 3:7 "7 And it came to p*** that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."

So this brings us back to the original quote:

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

It appears that you agree with the quote above? Yes or No?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---To become a forgiven murderer, I'd say that it's common sense that you must stop murdering people, as a starter. Do you disagree?


--CHRISTIAN doctrine is that virtually ANYONE can be forgiven except sons of perdition. Do you disagree?

Moroni wrote: "...if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

LDS believe that thanks to God's grace and Jesus' atonement, it IS possible for people to forsake ANY sin if the want it badly enough and they ask God for help. Do you disagree?

According to the LAW Jesus gave us concerning murder we can repent of Murder but still be committing it.. Most people don't even feel they have committed it at all.. Not being in agreement with Jesus on that fact is also sin.. The sin is then compounded.. Do you recall what jeus said about this sin?

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Rather hard not to be seen by God to be a murderer now doesn't? Are you sure that you have repented of murder each time you have gotten angry over nothing? IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I disagree because according to Mormonism you can't be forgiven of murder.

----So you disagree that stopping your murdering is a fundamental ingredient of becoming a forgiven murderer?

D and C 42:18 "And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."

--Uh, that extra-high standard is for LDS people. If you ain't LDS, you don't need to worry, you can go out and murder people and still have the possibility of being forgiven of murder, until you DO become LDS. Because LDS are expected to at least be able to refrain from murdering people--it's not that hard a thing to keep from doing. So go out and murder if you want to, all you non-LDS, happy in the knowledge that it's possible for you to be forgiven. But I still think God will want you to STOP murdering at some point before He will forgive you, otherwise you'll be making a big joke of the whole gospel and He would not like that.

I agree with you that this is the LDS position that you are capable of keeping all of the commandments if it is something that you really want to do.

--Sure. The commandment to REPENT is one of the commandments. Are you saying that's a commandment you're unable to obey?

So this brings us back to the original quote:

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

It appears that you agree with the quote above? Yes or No?

---You can guess my answer to that one by just thinking and using common sense:
Will ANY unforgiven person make it to God's presence in the afterlife? If no, then everyone who ends up there must be forgiven at some point before then. If you make it to heaven, will you continue to sin? If no, then logic says that at some point before you get there, you will have successfully STOPPED sinning. Seems that stopping your sinning is kind of important to God. I like common sense and logic, so I am voting "I agree." How about you? Disagree, perhaps?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

----So you disagree that stopping your murdering is a fundamental ingredient of becoming a forgiven murderer?

D and C 42:18 "And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."


Jeff, I didn't realize that a murderer could be forgiven under LDS theology. When did this change?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---You can guess my answer to that one by just thinking and using common sense:
Will ANY unforgiven person make it to God's presence in the afterlife? If no, then everyone who ends up there must be forgiven at some point before then.

So your answer is you agree with the OP quote? Correct? It would of been much easier for both of us if you simply would have said that you agree with it like Snow Patrol did.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by James Banta

According to the LAW Jesus gave us concerning murder we can repent of Murder but still be committing it..

---You must have a different definition of "repent" than I do. I thought "repent" meant to TURN AWAY FROM a sin. You think Jesus is cool with you NOT turning away from it. I think you are mistaken.

Most people don't even feel they have committed it at all..

---Most murderers don't feel they have committed murder? I dunno about that claim. It might be true, if most murderers are psychotic sociopaths.

Not being in agreement with Jesus on that fact is also sin..

---Then you'd better start agreeing with Jesus on all the issues where I think you clearly disagree with Him....

The sin is then compounded.. Do you recall what jeus said about this sin?

--About the sin of murder? Or about the sin of getting angry or the sin of calling someone a fool--which you are about to equate with murder instead of compare it to murder like you SHOULD be doing?

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

---If calling someone else a fool really is murder, then edit has some serial killers: Paul D, Brian, Yak, Theo....in fact, if they say that all LDS people are fools, then they have committed 11 million murders, which makes them worse than Hitler, who only caused the murder of 6 million to 8 million people. Wow, Jim, you just accused your @arm pals of being worse murderers than HITLER! What are they gonna think about THAT!?

[Libby]

That verse is talking about "brothers"...brothers in Christ...not just any "fool".

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Libby

That verse is talking about "brothers"...brothers in Christ...not just any "fool".

---You're REALLY going with that revisionist definition? Really? Or do you know better and were just joking? Please don't tell me that you've swallowed that whole "Jesus only said that one CHRISTIAN shouldn't sue another CHRISTIAN" nonsense.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---You're REALLY going with that revisionist definition? Really? Or do you know better and were just joking? Please don't tell me that you've swallowed that whole "Jesus only said that one CHRISTIAN shouldn't sue another CHRISTIAN" nonsense.

Revisionist definition? Don't know what you mean.

The verse you quoted actually does refer to "brothers"...and the meaning is well known.

I don't think everything Jesus told us was only in reference to brothers in Christ, no.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Libby

Revisionist definition? Don't know what you mean.

--I mean the lame-o EXCUSE that some Evangelicals invented so they don't have to obey Jesus' commandment to love EVERYONE, to do good to EVERYONE, to treat EVERYONE as you'd want to be treated. Noooo, "what Jesus REALLY meant, if you read the invisible-ink fine print, is that it's OKAY to frivolously take other people to court, and to mock them and call them fools....as long as you feel they aren't fellow CHRISTIANS."

So you've never heard of that re-definition? WHat a sheltered life you have led. Or "lead." Whichever is correct.

The verse you quoted actually does refer to "brothers"...and the meaning is well known.

--The CORRECT meaning is NOT so well known, it seems. Jesus TRIED to teach that His disciples should consider EVERYONE their brother or sister. Apparently, some of you didn't get His memo and are still lost as to what He wanted you to learn, behavior-wise. You're still seeing qualifiers and disclaimers that exempt you from treating EVERYONE the way Jesus actually wants you to treat them.

Of course, that revisionism gets you into a bit of trouble when it breaks down and falls apart, such as when Jesus commands you, as a Christian, to be kind to your persecutors and those who hate and revile you. Hmmm, so Christians are persecuting, hating, and reviling other Christians? That is the only logical conclusion, once you jump on the "We're only supposed to be nice to fellow Christians" bandwagon.

[James Banta]

[nrajeff;67306]---You must have a different definition of "repent" than I do. I thought "repent" meant to TURN AWAY FROM a sin. You think Jesus is cool with you NOT turning away from it. I think you are mistaken.

I insist that while I was still dead in my sins Jesus died for me. He took my sins then. When I realized my place before Him and what he had done for me I repented turning from sin at least in my new creation.. But like Paul the apostle, I still rushed to those things I hate and won't do those things I should (Romans 7:19).. Have you come to that level of obedience that even Paul could manage?

---Then you'd better start agreeing with Jesus on all the issues where I think you clearly disagree with Him....

So instead of yielding to the Holy Spirit as to how I should follow my Lord I should abandon Him and do what YOU think is right.. That isn't going to happen!!!

--About the sin of murder? Or about the sin of getting angry or the sin of calling someone a fool--which you are about to equate with murder instead of compare it to murder like you SHOULD be doing?

Here you are telling me what is right instead of listening to the Holy Spirit.. The p***age in Matthew 5 is clear.. Whoever treats another in this way is guilty of murder.. You can question this if you like I call it a commandment that all of us have broken. We all stained with blood as seen through the eyes of God.. We are all just as guilty of sin before a Holy God as a murderer is guilty.. These things that don't seem that serious are seen equal with the most serious sin before God.. There is no escape, you are a sinner before God guilty of these horrible sins the same as any other man. Some of us recognize that sin and have turned from it.. Our trouble is that I must walk in this body death. But it is no longer I that sins but sin that lives in me (Romans 7:17)

---If calling someone else a fool really is murder, then edit has some serial killers: Paul D, Brian, Yak, Theo....in fact, if they say that all LDS people are fools, then they have committed 11 million murders, which makes them worse than Hitler, who only caused the murder of 6 million to 8 million people. Wow, Jim, you just accused your @arm pals of being worse murderers than HITLER! What are they gonna think about THAT!?

I don't have to tell any Christian I know that they are all in serious sin. Each one I know has given it to Jesus. Never the less they like me still live in the flesh and the sin is the ruler of the flesh..

edit IHS jim

[Billyray]

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

If this statement is true would any LDS on this board (or anywhere else) qualify for exaltation today?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

If this statement is true would any LDS on this board (or anywhere else) qualify for exaltation today?

---Who says that any of us qualifies for it today? I expect a LONG time between when I die and Judgment Day--which is at least 1000 years away-- where I hope God will continue to help me "overcome the world" as Jesus talked about His disciples doing. I believe Jesus.

So ask me in 1000 years whether God has helped me overcome. I think He is able to help me overcome all my sins in that much time. If you doubt His ability to do that, you can file a complaint with His office.

Maybe you'd believe CS Lewis over me:

"He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creatures, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to Him perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Who says that any of us qualifies for it today? I expect a LONG time between when I die and Judgment Day--which is at least 1000 years away-- where I hope God will continue to help me "overcome the world" as Jesus talked about His disciples doing. I believe Jesus.

So your game plan is to procrastinate the day of your repentance? Jeff this is not a great idea.


Alma 34:32"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. ...I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked."


Now Jeff you don't want to be sealed to the devil, now do you?

[nrajeff]

And we have succeeded in getting Billyray to preach from the Book of Mormon, citing it as an authoritative source of authentic Christian doctrine.



Our work here is done, it seems!

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

And we have succeeded in getting Billyray to preach from the Book of Mormon, citing it as an authoritative source of authentic Christian doctrine.



Our work here is done, it seems!

Ok, you haven't repented of sin until you turn away from it and forsake it 100%. But Still you tell me that you continue to sin in other ways, right? So in fact you haven't forsaken sin at all.. In James we are told that we are guilty of all sin if we offend in just one area (James 2:10). Since, by sinning is any way you are guilty of the sin you just repented of, did your repentance count at all?

Sorry but unless you stop sinning completely your idea of repentance is worthless.. The Christians doctrine on this point seem much more logical.. If we confess our sin He is FAITHFUL AND JUST to forgive is our sin and cleanse us fro ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS..

There is that word again that LDS people seem to hate.. "ALL".. It says what it means not just the sin we have committed but all the sin we have and ever will commit.. ALL OF IT! That would cover the statement of James that we are 100% in sin because we have been 100% forgiven.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

If you look at the ramifications of this statement it means that in order to be totally forgiven requires a sin free life. This raises the question, can anyone meet this standard?

Maybe the standards are high. But I just don't see the alternative as a viable option. Jesus wants us to repent of our sins. Repentence means turning away from and if we continue doing that same sin have we really turned away from it? It just seems like lip service if we don't truly turn away from it.

I haven't seen you address my questions.

Does forgiveness of a particular sin come to non-LDS Christians because they confess and ask for forgiveness all the while continuing in that particular sin? Can someone be forgiven of adultery while they still participate in it?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Maybe the standards are high. But I just don't see the alternative as a viable option.

Who meets these standards? If nobody meets the standard then nobody qualifies for exaltation. What kind of option is that?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Does forgiveness of a particular sin come to non-LDS Christians because they confess and ask for forgiveness all the while continuing in that particular sin? Can someone be forgiven of adultery while they still participate in it?

We both believe that we should have faith. We both believe that we should obey the commandments. Where we differ is in how we are forgiven. For LDS they are forgiven by repentance which in the end means keeping all of the commandments. Christians also have a desire and belief that we should keep all of the commandments but our forgiveness in based on our faith in Christ for our salvation. We are justified by our faith. "Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God. Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). http://www.gotquestions.org/justification.html

Should we continue to sin because we are justified by faith? Absolutely not. Paul addresses this common false ***umption in
Romans 6:1
"1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Should we confess our sins? Of course.
1 John 1:8-9
"8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

So we should not be involved in sin and we should not continue in sin. BTW this is a common argument given by LDS to try and support their position. But it is really a straw man argument in my opinion.

[akaSeerone]

When are you Mormons going to face the reality that there is nothing whatsoever Christian about Mormonism.

That is a cold hard fact....live wit it.....REPENT OR BURN.

There just are no second chances, so you need to get it right in this life or you will burn.

Andy