What does it take for complete forgiveness?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

We both believe that we should have faith. We both believe that we should obey the commandments. Where we differ is in how we are forgiven. For LDS they are forgiven by repentance which in the end means keeping all of the commandments. Christians also have a desire and belief that we should keep all of the commandments but our forgiveness in based on our faith in Christ for our salvation. We are justified by our faith. "Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God. Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). http://www.gotquestions.org/justification.html

Should we continue to sin because we are justified by faith? Absolutely not. Paul addresses this common false ***umption in
Romans 6:1
"1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Should we confess our sins? Of course.
1 John 1:8-9
"8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

So we should not be involved in sin and we should not continue in sin. BTW this is a common argument given by LDS to try and support their position. But it is really a straw man argument in my opinion.

"So we should not be involved in sin and we should not continue in sin."

So we should not be... and we should not continue....

That is hardly a convincing answer. So what is the state of a Christian that does continue to sin?

[Snow Patrol]

"The Christians doctrine on this point seem much more logical.. If we confess our sin He is FAITHFUL AND JUST to forgive is our sin and cleanse us fro ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.."


Will Christ save you IN your sins? Is this confession a one time thing, on-going thing, or a wait till the end thing? How sorry and contrite of heart is someone who returns right back to that sin?

[JustMe]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

The one lying here is you and your fellow Mormon mopologists that hopelessly try to pawn Mormonism off as Christian. You may get away with that over on Farms or Fair, but it will not be tolerated here!

Again trying to be moderator! Well, I hope that at least you've reported Jeff's gross rule-breaking to the proper authorities!

You have only one choice Mormon....REPENT OR BURN.

Tut, tut Andy! Don't you know that works don't save us (you guys do believe that repentance is a work, right?)!

And I don't see the likes of you repenting, so enjoy hell. You are fighting tooth and nail to get there and you will get what you so desire.

Pity!

Andy

But how can Jeff do anything like what you're demanding unless God invades his brain and forces him to deny his current faith and accept your definition of "Christianity?"

[James Banta]

Repentance is a realizatiom of our place before a holy God.. We believe Him and what He DID (crifixtion was the work) and then we are forgiven and made His children.. All of that he does not us.. You are twisting the meaning of realization and work.. We realize He does the work! IHS jim

[JustMe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Repentance is a realizatiom of our place before a holy God.. We believe Him and what He DID (crifixtion was the work) and then we are forgiven and made His children.. All of that he does not us.. You are twisting the meaning of realization and work.. We realize He does the work! IHS jim

From what I understand of your beliefs, we can't even realize our place before a holy God without Him doing it for us. Thus Andy's call for Jeff to repent seems, how shall we say, mis-guided.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by JustMe

From what I understand of your beliefs, we can't even realize our place before a holy God without Him doing it for us. Thus Andy's call for Jeff to repent seems, how shall we say, mis-guided.

I agree. It should actually be a supplication to God to make us repent. But I kind of think that God has had many opportunities to give me the cause to repent and leave the LDS Church but just hasn't taken the chance yet I guess. I wonder what He is waiting for?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by JustMe

From what I understand of your beliefs, we can't even realize our place before a holy God without Him doing it for us. Thus Andy's call for Jeff to repent seems, how shall we say, mis-guided.

---Yes, good point. Even the "If...then..." formula of
"If we confess our sin He is FAITHFUL AND JUST to forgive is our sin and cleanse us fro ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.."
refutes Calvinism's "God already forgave you before you were created" nonsense.

Calvinism has to stretch all kinds of logic to make itself work:

"God predestinated you to either be elect or go to hell, and He already forgave you of all the sins you would ever commit, too. If you accept that fact, and accept Trinitarianism and Calvinism, none of THAT is of your own doing, either, since you're not allowed to play ANY part of whether you get saved or ****ed--it's all God, all the way, all the time, every time. As for all the people who end up in hell--If He'd wanted any of them saved, they wouldn't BE there--He would have saved them and then made them have faith in Trini-Calvitarianism, and made them repent and do good works."

Sorry, I can't buy that reasoning. I guess I just wasn't predestinated to buy it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

So what is the state of a Christian that does continue to sin?

Snow Patrol this is a major difference between Christians and Mormons. For Christians salvation is based on your faith in Christ. For Mormons your salvation is based on faith AND your works. This is not to say that Christians do not believe in works but rather our works are a reflection of our faith. Also a new Christian will have more sin in his life than a long term Christian. Though they are positionally equal in terms of justification, they are in different places in terms of sanctification.

I understand you position with respect to works. Remember I was raised Mormon. A lot of things in life are based on our own efforts. If you want a good grade you have to work hard and study. So the idea that we are saved by faith and not by works goes against our carnal mind.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Snow Patrol this is a major difference between Christians and Mormons.

---Mormons ARE Christians like Presbyterians are Christians. They may be Arminian-leaning Christians, or Arian-leaning Christians, but that doesn't make them non-Christians, no matter how desperately you wish we weren't.

For Christians salvation is based on your faith in Christ.

---Your faith in Christ is only as good as your willingness to OBEY Him is. Jesus tried to make that plain in His teachings, but some people, beginning with Augustine, didn't want to believe it.

For Mormons your salvation is based on faith AND your works.

--Faith and OBEDIENCE to God's will.

This is not to say that Christians do not believe in works but rather our works are a reflection of our faith.

--LDS believe that the charity we show for others, like our obedience to the other commandments, are a reflection of our faith.

Also a new Christian will have more sin in his life than a long term Christian.

--Really? That's always the case? Pastor Ted was a long-term Christian.

A lot of things in life are based on our own efforts. If you want a good grade you have to work hard and study.

---Maybe that's why the Bible says that Christians need to work out their own salvation--if you sit around waiting for God to do it for you, you will be waiting a long time. Whether your faith is strong enough to result in your obedience, is based on your own efforts, but those efforts can be augmented by God if you ask Him to help you.

So the idea that we are saved by faith and not by works goes against our carnal mind.

--The idea that we can be saved by mere one-time profession of faith and telling Jesus that you accept Him as your Savior, goes against reason, logic, and the Bible.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Mormons ARE Christians like Presbyterians are Christians.

Mormons don't believe what Christians believe. Christians don't believe what Mormons believe. With rare exceptions of course.

If I believe that Joseph Smith is a false prophet who had sex with young girls. That the Book of Mormon is a book of fiction. That the modern prophets are false prophets. Would it be alright in your opinion if I called myself Mormon?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--Faith and OBEDIENCE to God's will.

Jeff here lies the problem. Mormons talk a big game but they don't walk the walk. They claim that their exaltation is based on their faith and obedience, yet they don't do it. You don't even live up to your own standards. If you die today can you honestly say that you will be exalted?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Mormons don't believe what Christians believe.

---Of COURSE Mormons believe the same things that OTHER Christians believe, in many areas such as what the heart of the gospel is:

That Jesus is the Son of God and Savior and only way to salvation who died for people's sins and was resurrected.

You have been listening to those fringe radical right-wing divisive Evan preachers too much--the ones who say "If a person doesn't believe exactly what I believe, then he's not a Christian at all!"

So how long have you been attending Westboro?

If I believe that Joseph Smith is a false prophet who had sex with young girls.

---There are some Christians who believe that. It doesn't make them non-Christian.

That the Book of Mormon is a book of fiction. That the modern prophets are false prophets. Would it be alright in your opinion if I called myself Mormon?

---You need to come into the 21st century. Your fallacy was exposed and refuted decades ago. It's the "If all Dodges are automobiles, then all automobiles must be Dodges" fallacy. It doesn't impress anyone who can think at or above a high-school level of logical reasoning.

"If I, as a Baptist, believe that Presbyterianism is the devil's church, would it be okay if I called myself a Presbyterian?"

Not that impressive.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff here lies the problem. Mormons talk a big game but they don't walk the walk.

---According to Calvinism, we don't NEED to walk the walk, we only need to say the right words. Walking the walk implies "works" --those filthy rags that God doesn't really care about, since you can still get to heaven without doing them. All you need is "faith" that you believe in "the Jesus of the Bible" and that Jesus picked you to be one His special saved elect, for no good reason, while He picked billions of your friends, family, and neighbors to be pre-***igned to hell, also for no good reason.

They claim that their exaltation is based on their faith and obedience, yet they don't do it.

---Yet another fallacy: Whether or not we're keeping all the commandments has NOTHING to do with whether or not those commandments exist and are from God. It is entirely possible for a person to believe that he should help the poor, yet fail to help the poor.

You don't even live up to your own standards.

---Just because we have high standards, and we are not yet perfect at meeting those standards, doesn't mean that our standards should be lowered. Nor does it mean that we will never meet them. You need to think more logically if you ever want to win a debate.

If you die today can you honestly say that you will be exalted?

---Of course not. How arrogant and presumptuous would THAT be? Only GOD knows whether I met His expectations, and besides, Judgment Day doesn't happen the second you die, silly--it's still a long way off, after the end of the Millennial reign of Jesus on Earth. And the millennium hasn't even begun yet.
Why would you think that if a person died today, Judgment Day would be TODAY?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Snow Patrol this is a major difference between Christians and Mormons. For Christians salvation is based on your faith in Christ. For Mormons your salvation is based on faith AND your works. This is not to say that Christians do not believe in works but rather our works are a reflection of our faith. Also a new Christian will have more sin in his life than a long term Christian. Though they are positionally equal in terms of justification, they are in different places in terms of sanctification.

I understand you position with respect to works. Remember I was raised Mormon. A lot of things in life are based on our own efforts. If you want a good grade you have to work hard and study. So the idea that we are saved by faith and not by works goes against our carnal mind.

A lot there, but not really answering my question. How about again.....
What is the state of a Christian who continues in the sin after giving "lip service" repentance?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

A lot there, but not really answering my question. How about again.....
What is the state of a Christian who continues in the sin after giving "lip service" repentance?

This question can't be answered until you define what you mean by lip service.. All repentant people remain in sin all the while they remain in the flesh. I have shown you in the scripture where Paul the Apostle admitted that he still sinned.. So tell us what is meant by lip service repentance and how you can tell the difference and I will answer your question.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

What is the state of a Christian who continues in the sin after giving "lip service" repentance?

I thought I have done a good *** trying to answer you question but you don't feel that I have done so. Maybe I am not fully understanding what you are really asking. When you say "state" what do you mean exactly? Maybe you could ask your question a little differently so I can get a better grasp of what you are truly asking.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by JustMe

From what I understand of your beliefs, we can't even realize our place before a holy God without Him doing it for us. Thus Andy's call for Jeff to repent seems, how shall we say, mis-guided.

You miss the point Jesus does the work all He awaits is your acceptance of that work.. Andy called Jeff to accept that work on his behalf as I call you, Marvin, and all LDS people that will listen to my words.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Only GOD knows whether I met His expectations, and besides, Judgment Day doesn't happen the second you die, silly--it's still a long way off, after the end of the Millennial reign of Jesus on Earth. And the millennium hasn't even begun yet.

You don't know it you have met his expectations? Let me ask you, if you continue to sin do you believe that this meets his expectations?

Second it seems that your advice for yourself and other LDS is to simply delay the day of your repentance. Is that what you are saying Jeff?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If I believe that Joseph Smith is a false prophet who had sex with young girls. That the Book of Mormon is a book of fiction. That the modern prophets are false prophets. Would it be alright in your opinion if I called myself Mormon?

You didn't really answer the question Jeff. Could you please answer the question?

[JustMe]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

God has already called jeff, only jeff told God OK, but I want to do it my way and has chosen Mormonism over God/Christianity.

And I thought God's grace was irresistible, according to TULIP. Either it isn't, or Jeff just isn't one of the "elect" like you.

And he can play Mr. innocent till he burns in hell, every time he posts here he lies and he knows it. To him this is just a game and he is pushing Jill as far as she will let him and laughing at her all the while he is making a mockery of this forum.

Hey, wanna-be-moderator, I thought calling other posters liars was against the rules!

The guy is in desperate need of an at***ude adjustment and one day God will give it to him, but then it will be to late.

Pity the foolish pagan.

Andy

Pity the foolish "christian" whose works/words here make me wanna stay as far away from the brand of "christianity" he claims to espouse.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I thought I have done a good *** trying to answer you question but you don't feel that I have done so. Maybe I am not fully understanding what you are really asking. When you say "state" what do you mean exactly? Maybe you could ask your question a little differently so I can get a better grasp of what you are truly asking.

To Christians, is repentance more than just confessing that they have sinned? This topic of discussion has really intrigued me for quite some time. I've heard, and sometimes even used myself, the term "Licensed to Sin" in trying to understand this idea of Christians that when they "Accept Jesus" and confess their sins that they are somehow covered for life. At that point, it doesn't really matter what they do they'll always be Christians and be saved.

What is an acceptable amount of sin a "Christian" can commit and still be considered a Christian? Not once has any Christian out there given me any kind of definitive, even in their own minds, answer as to what is acceptable.

Yes, LDS believe we should set the bar at a level of what we believe Christ would want it to be. "Be ye therefore perfect..." We don't read those words from Christ and think... well I was perfect for a moment so I'm taken care of.

Many times non-LDS ask us if we were to die right now would we receive exaltation. I believe with every fiber of my being that I would. I am not perfect. I have sin in my life. However, as I put forth the effort to rid sin from my life, I believe Christ sees my effort and His atonement covers me. If I go through life and make no effort to expunge sin from my life, then I don't think it matters how many times I say I accept Christ into my life.

I've read numerous times non-LDS quoting a prophet or two talking about how we shouldn't have any sin in our life. My re****al to that is..."what level of sin is acceptable?" Which is what I'm asking the Christians here. What level of sin do you believe is acceptable to Christ? What level of sin do you believe Christ thinks is acceptable?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

To Christians, is repentance more than just confessing that they have sinned? I've heard, and sometimes even used myself, the term "Licensed to Sin" in trying to understand this idea of Christians that when they "Accept Jesus" and confess their sins that they are somehow covered for life.

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

What is the state of a Christian who continues in the sin after giving "lip service" repentance?

You did not answer my question about what you meant when you said "What is the state of a Christian. . . .", so I can only ***ume that you meant can a Christian be saved if he has a "Licensed to Sin". The concept of a license to sin is not held by true Christians. Remember that there will be both wheat and tares that grow together. Thus there will be true Christians sitting next to non Christians at church. Both will profess that they are Christian and my have an outward appearance of being a Christian, but they will not be true Christians. A true Christian will be born again. This is the work of God not of man--meaning that God is the one who gives us his spirit. After being born again the recipient will have a changed disposition sometimes people describe it as a changed nature.

So to answer your question. If a person is a true born again believer then that person will not feel that he has a license to sin. If a person claims to be a true believer and has no change in his behavior and has no desire to forsake his sinful behavior then it is likely that the person is not a true born again believer. It is not the percentage of sins that a person keeps or does not keep but rather does the person have a changed life and does that person show signs of sanctification i.e. does his life become more and more Christ like over time.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Many times non-LDS ask us if we were to die right now would we receive exaltation. I believe with every fiber of my being that I would.

If you continue to sin then why do you believe that you will be exalted? This seems to go against what your scriptures teach.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You don't know it you have met his expectations?

---LDS doctrine is that it is possible for the Holy Spirit to witness to a person that his behavior is acceptable to God. I just don't think I am one of those who have received that witness yet. In fact, I am pretty sure that I could do better at obeying God's will for me, since I have a fairly good idea of what I am able to do and I could do better. I am not even meeting the standards that I set for myself, let alone what God has set.

But I have faith and hope that as long as I don't give on God, He won't give up on me, so that gives me the will to keep trying to do better, even if I fail a lot of the time.

Let me ask you, if you continue to sin do you believe that this meets his expectations?

----Not if the Bible is correct, it doesn't. The Bible is pretty clear as to what level of obedience GOD and JESUS expect of people who claim to be disciples. Since I believe the Bible is correct, I agree with it.

Second it seems that your advice for yourself and other LDS is to simply delay the day of your repentance. Is that what you are saying Jeff?

--That would be foolish, so no. My advice would be to repent and quit disobeying ASAP, because it might not be so easy to do it after you're dead. At the very least, sin a little LESS each day than the day before, so that if you die next month or year, you won't have as much to answer for as you would if you just continued to party or slack off. Do you think that's bad advice? Would YOUR advice be:

"Hey, it's not a problem if you'll just believe in Trinitarian Calvinism, 'cause then, your present AND future sins are already forgiven, and there is no pressing need for you to kick the sin habit" ????

THAT sounds like bad advice to ME.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

In fact, I am pretty sure that I could do better at obeying God's will for me, since I have a fairly good idea of what I am able to do and I could do better. I am not even meeting the standards that I set for myself, let alone what God has set.

If you could do better then you are not doing all you can do. If you could do better then you are still IN sin. The LDS position is clear Jeff and you are falling short. Don't you agree?