What does it take for complete forgiveness?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

A lot there, but not really answering my question. How about again.....
What is the state of a Christian who continues in the sin after giving "lip service" repentance?

My answer to that is only God knows the heart for certain.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You did not answer my question about what you meant when you said "What is the state of a Christian. . . .", so I can only ***ume that you meant can a Christian be saved if he has a "Licensed to Sin". The concept of a license to sin is not held by true Christians. Remember that there will be both wheat and tares that grow together. Thus there will be true Christians sitting next to non Christians at church. Both will profess that they are Christian and my have an outward appearance of being a Christian, but they will not be true Christians. A true Christian will be born again. This is the work of God not of man--meaning that God is the one who gives us his spirit. After being born again the recipient will have a changed disposition sometimes people describe it as a changed nature.

So to answer your question. If a person is a true born again believer then that person will not feel that he has a license to sin. If a person claims to be a true believer and has no change in his behavior and has no desire to forsake his sinful behavior then it is likely that the person is not a true born again believer. It is not the percentage of sins that a person keeps or does not keep but rather does the person have a changed life and does that person show signs of sanctification i.e. does his life become more and more Christ like over time.

Sorry, I thought I clarified what I was asking but then added to much stuff probably. So how about this.... as a Christian

What level of sin do you believe is acceptable to Christ? What level of sin do you believe Christ thinks is acceptable?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you continue to sin then why do you believe that you will be exalted? This seems to go against what your scriptures teach.

Because, the way I understand the scriptures means that God knows it is impossible for us to be sinless and so he provides a way to overcome that and that is through Christ's atonement.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

What level of sin do you believe is acceptable to Christ? What level of sin do you believe Christ thinks is acceptable?

There is no percentage that I can give. But if you are looking for a specific percentage then you have NOT really understood anything that I have written in my prior posts.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Because, the way I understand the scriptures means that God knows it is impossible for us to be sinless and so he provides a way to overcome that and that is through Christ's atonement.

But that goes against the LDS teachings. Do you disagree?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

There is no percentage that I can give. But if you are looking for a specific percentage then you have NOT really understood anything that I have written in my prior posts.

I know. It is not an easy question to answer, which is why no Christian has ever answered that. But I think it is a critical one to ponder because I think it is a fine line between the wheat and the tares. It would suck to go through life thinking one is wheat and then to find out that they were actually a tare because of a few sins they were unwilling to give up.

[Snow Patrol]

I do not agree.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I do not agree.

With what part?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

What level of sin do you believe is acceptable to Christ? What level of sin do you believe Christ thinks is acceptable?

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I know. It is not an easy question to answer, which is why no Christian has ever answered that.

No Christian has answered it because there is no specific percentage or specific level. Let me give you another example that will hopefully address this issue.


5 High percentage of following the Commandments
4
3
2
1 Low percentage of following the Commandments


Two atheists convert to Christianity. Both start at different levels on the sin scale. Note this starting level is not based on any religious beliefs in the atheists. Lets say that one starts at 1 and the other starts at a level 3. The ***umption is that they are indeed true followers of Christ. With this fact they are both justified in the eyes of God despite their different initial percentage of sin. Over time if they are true believers they will progressively move up the scale to become more and more Christlike. Look in the NT, we see Christ taking people in a variety of levels of sins and pronouncing them saved based on their faith NOT based on their level of sin.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No Christian has answered it because there is no specific percentage or specific level. Let me give you another example that will hopefully address this issue.


5 High percentage of following the Commandments
4
3
2
1 Low percentage of following the Commandments


Two atheists convert to Christianity. Both start at different levels on the sin scale. Note this starting level is not based on any religious beliefs in the atheists. Lets say that one starts at 1 and the other starts at a level 3. The ***umption is that they are indeed true followers of Christ. With this fact they are both justified in the eyes of God despite their different initial percentage of sin. Over time if they are true believers they will progressively move up the scale to become more and more Christlike. Look in the NT, we see Christ taking people in a variety of levels of sins and pronouncing them saved based on their faith NOT based on their level of sin.

So, in your opinion, any progress confirms their salvation? What about stagnant growth? What about initial skyrocketing growth, but later return to many of the sins when first saved? I know you can't give me percentages but it is important to think about. It it like trying to play a game when the rules change and where one can determine the rules on their own.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

With what part?

That is goes against the teachings of the Church.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

It it like trying to play a game when the rules change and where one can determine the rules on their own.

Can you explain what you mean by this statement?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

That is goes against the teachings of the Church.

So you disagree with the OP statement? Why?

"In Mormonism, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently."

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you explain what you mean by this statement?

It is how I see Modern Christianity to behave and believe. It all boils down to whatever the individual believes. If he doesn't like the beliefs of church A, then he goes to church B. If he doesn't like that one, then he possibly starts church C. Also, suppose he converts from Mormonism. Since he came from a strict religion as it pertains to obediance, then he may feel that because he's pronounced his faith in Christ that his need to eradicate sin out of his life is not what it once was and may be dramatically lower than what a person who has been a Christian his whole life.

I guess what I'm saying is that there is no standard set. You'll disagree and say that the Bible is the standard but really you can only say that it is each person's interpretation of what the bible says.

[Snow Patrol]

Technically, I believe it to be true as it is written. However, what it does not include is the role that Christ plays in all of this.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I guess what I'm saying is that there is no standard set. You'll disagree and say that the Bible is the standard but really you can only say that it is each person's interpretation of what the bible says.

I think a lot of Mormons and Christians are unclear on the teachings of their respective faiths. However it would not be fair to judge Mormonism based on an uniformed Mormon just like it would be to criticize Christianity on an unformed Christian.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Technically, I believe it to be true as it is written. However, what it does not include is the role that Christ plays in all of this.

How do you see the role of Christ in all of this? Do you feel that it changes the OP quote in any way?

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think a lot of Mormons and Christians are unclear on the teachings of their respective faiths. However it would not be fair to judge Mormonism based on an uniformed Mormon just like it would be to criticize Christianity on an unformed Christian.

I haven't been talking to many uninformed Christians over the years because most of my information has come from members of these types of boards. They may have dramatically different opinions but they are informed.

[Snow Patrol]

Christ's role is to allow us sinful, yet repentent, souls to live with God. Whether we are able to conquer all sin or almost all sin, Christ is the way home for us.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Christ's role is to allow us sinful, yet repentent, souls to live with God. Whether we are able to conquer all sin or almost all sin, Christ is the way home for us.

I think the key to your statement is "yet repentant". Recall that true repentance requires completely forsaking your sin.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think the key to your statement is "yet repentant". Recall that true repentance requires completely forsaking your sin.

Yes, if it was required of us to be completely sinless and fully repentant and forgiven of our OWN accord, then you might have a point of concern. However, simply because of Christ, we are able to still live with God DESPITE the fact that we may not be fully repentant.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Yes, if it was required of us to be completely sinless and fully repentant and forgiven of our OWN accord, then you might have a point of concern. However, simply because of Christ, we are able to still live with God DESPITE the fact that we may not be fully repentant.

So you believe that you can continue to sin and be exalted?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

"The Christians doctrine on this point seem much more logical.. If we confess our sin He is FAITHFUL AND JUST to forgive is our sin and cleanse us fro ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.."


Will Christ save you IN your sins? Is this confession a one time thing, on-going thing, or a wait till the end thing? How sorry and contrite of heart is someone who returns right back to that sin?

Yes while we were yet sinners Jesus died for us.. Yes, we are saved in our sin..Even Paul said he was in a constant state of sin.. The things he wouldn't do those he did and the things he would do those he did not (Romans 7:19).. Yet He was an apostle sent by Jesus (God) to take His name to the Nations. By you Snow are much better than Paul you always do what you really want to do in the service of God and you have completely over come the lusts of the flesh so you NEVER do what you wouldn't.. Don't say that too loud or someone might call you a name!! IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe that you can continue to sin and be exalted?

I believe it all depends on your heart and only God knows the heart. So someone who is willfully and knowingly choosing to continue in sin without even trying to stop and repent is making a choice not to follow Christ. I believe he is rejecting Christ's atonement at that point. However, someone who knows they have sinned and are making efforts to rid that sin from their life and is placing their burdens on Christ are accepting of His atonement and I believe they will be exalted. They may not be completely free from sin but are making the effort.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you could do better then you are not doing all you can do.

-----Yeah, that is the logical conclusion. Glad you are deciding to think logically. Keep up the good work.

If you could do better then you are still IN sin.

--Which is why I am still LDS--I don't believe I have become totally sinless yet, so I need to stay in the hospital for sinners. I will probably be there for a long time, but as C.S. Lewis said, God intends to eventually make non-sinners out of anyone who is willing to let Him.

The LDS position is clear Jeff and you are falling short. Don't you agree

---Of course I agree that the LDS doctrine rightly has high standards just like God has for people who want to be numbered with the saints. The fact that we don't instantly MEET those standards doesn't meant the standards are evil, or impossibly hard. It would be stu=pid to abandon His standards simply because we don't meet all of them TODAY. If they were that easy to meet, THEN there would be reason to question their validity.