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Thread: JWs - Free of pagan influence?

  1. #1
    ChrisLaRock
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    Default JWs - Free of pagan influence?

    I studied with JWs for almost a year, and one thing was always being brought up by the JW elder. He would boast that JWs are completely free of all pagan contamination.

    This claim begs the question; If JWs are free of pagan contamination, why are they permitted to wear wedding rings and neck ties? Wedding rings, for example, date back to pagans who worshipped saturn.

  2. #2
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    Good question.

    And what about all the Masonic (Babylonian) imagery in their early publications and all over the grave site of their founder? Why do JWs exchange money with more of the same pagan imagery all over it? And what about the content of Acts 17, where Paul quotes Aratus, a pagan Greek pantheist - is that text not of "pagan" origin?

    -BH

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    "Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical argument, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information and you will ever have the the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God in redeeming your fellow beings from the darnkess which you may see enveloping their minds" - The Seer, Orsen Pratt, Mormon “Apostle”

  3. #3
    PostTribber
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    Default Polytheistic

    pagans believe in 'many' gods. JW's believe Jesus is 'a' god. if JW's believe the Father is 'a' god, and Jesus is 'a' god, then that's pagan.

  4. #4
    TRiG
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    Default Failure of basic logic

    Quote Originally Posted by PostTribber View Post
    pagans believe in 'many' gods. JW's believe Jesus is 'a' god. if JW's believe the Father is 'a' god, and Jesus is 'a' god, then that's pagan.
    Pagans believe in many Gods.
    Witnesses believe in many Gods.
    Therefore, Witnesses are Pagans.

    ...

    Cows are mammals.
    Goats are mammals.
    Therefore, goats are cows.

    TRiG.

  5. #5
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRiG View Post
    Pagans believe in many Gods.
    Witnesses believe in many Gods.
    Therefore, Witnesses are Pagans.
    ...
    Cows are mammals.
    Goats are mammals.
    Therefore, goats are cows.
    TRiG.
    I appreciate the fact you are no longer JW, Trig but the logical fallacy is in your illustration.

    reread both carefully.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  6. #6
    TRiG
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    Default ?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnd View Post
    I appreciate the fact you are no longer JW, Trig but the logical fallacy is in your illustration.

    reread both carefully.
    I have done. The illustration has no fallacy that I can see.

    TRiG.

  7. #7
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Default de-flawed...

    Cows are mammals.
    Goats are mammals.
    Therefore, goats and cows are mammals.

    In keeping with the definition of mammals.

    Pagans believe in many Gods.
    Jehovah's Witnesses believe in many Gods.
    Therefore, Witnesses are Pagans.

    In keeping with the definition of Paganism.
    Although polytheism would have been a better (more accurate) choice of words.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  8. #8
    TRiG
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnd View Post
    Cows are mammals.
    Goats are mammals.
    Therefore, goats and cows are mammals.

    In keeping with the definition of mammals.

    Pagans believe in many Gods.
    Jehovah's Witnesses believe in many Gods.
    Therefore, Witnesses are Pagans.
    You are clearly very very confused.

    Therefore pagans and JWs believe in many gods.

    Just look at the parallelisms.

    TRiG.

  9. #9
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnd View Post
    I appreciate the fact you are no longer JW, Trig but the logical fallacy is in your illustration.

    reread both carefully.
    Are Christians also pagans?

  10. #10
    xjw4evr
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    The JW's view of Jesus and God comes directly from the pagan Greek philosopher Plato, ie. the Monas (God) and the Duas (Jesus).

  11. #11
    asdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnd View Post
    Cows are mammals.
    Goats are mammals.
    Therefore, goats and cows are mammals.

    In keeping with the definition of mammals.

    Pagans believe in many Gods.
    Jehovah's Witnesses believe in many Gods.
    Therefore, Witnesses are Pagans.

  12. #12
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by xjw4evr View Post
    The JW's view of Jesus and God comes directly from the pagan Greek philosopher Plato, ie. the Monas (God) and the Duas (Jesus).
    Some will say that all of Christianity has pagan roots.

  13. #13
    xjw4evr
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    Some will say that all of Christianity has pagan roots.
    Only the uneducated or the liberal, my dear.

  14. #14
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by xjw4evr View Post
    Only the uneducated or the liberal, my dear.
    I don't understand. Why uneducated, why liberal?

  15. #15
    xjw4evr
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    Why uneducated[?]
    Because there is so much scholarship out there that demonstrates, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Christianity did not "evolve" out of a vacuum, but was developed from the kernels of Jewish religious thought found in the Old Testamant and inter-Testamental writings (much on which were discovered at the Dead Sea).

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    [W]hy liberal?
    Because most liberals (I speak of liberal Christian theologians) are stuck in the arguments of the 19th century Germans liberal theologians. These theologians made ***ertions that have been refuted with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (as mentioned above). Further, liberal Christians bring to the table the presupposition that Christianity was not a "child" of Judaism, but was some sort of cheap attempt at copying the pagan mystery religions. This claim is made in spite of clear evidence that many of these pagan mystery religions were copycats of Christianity, or contain legends that are as far removed from Christianity as modern humans are removed from the flea.

  16. #16
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by xjw4evr View Post
    Because there is so much scholarship out there that demonstrates, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Christianity did not "evolve" out of a vacuum, but was developed from the kernels of Jewish religious thought found in the Old Testamant and inter-Testamental writings (much on which were discovered at the Dead Sea).



    Because most liberals (I speak of liberal Christian theologians) are stuck in the arguments of the 19th century Germans liberal theologians. These theologians made ***ertions that have been refuted with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (as mentioned above). Further, liberal Christians bring to the table the presupposition that Christianity was not a "child" of Judaism, but was some sort of cheap attempt at copying the pagan mystery religions. This claim is made in spite of clear evidence that many of these pagan mystery religions were copycats of Christianity, or contain legends that are as far removed from Christianity as modern humans are removed from the flea.
    I've been participating on religious discussion boards for a while and I don't recall anyone ever saying that Christianity evolved from a vacuum.
    I think anyone familiar with Christianity knows that Jesus was, purportedly, Jewish.
    I think many have noticed the simularities between Christianity and other, more ancient religions.
    I'm not sure how you conclude from this that these folks are uneducated or liberals.

  17. #17
    xjw4evr
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    I've been participating on religious discussion boards for a while and I don't recall anyone ever saying that Christianity evolved from a vacuum.
    Is it possible that you and I run in different crowds?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    I think anyone familiar with Christianity knows that Jesus was, purportedly, Jewish.
    Really. In the crowds I deal with there are people that deny Jesus ever existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    I think many have noticed the simularities between Christianity and other, more ancient religions.
    Sadly, I have spoken with many people that seem to believe that just because there are similarities, that Christianity ripped these off those religions.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    I'm not sure how you conclude from this that these folks are uneducated or liberals.
    It's called 17 years of evangelism and apologetic work. I forgot something even more important...people that believe as you stated, are NOT Christians either.

  18. #18
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by xjw4evr View Post
    Is it possible that you and I run in different crowds?



    Really. In the crowds I deal with there are people that deny Jesus ever existed.



    Sadly, I have spoken with many people that seem to believe that just because there are similarities, that Christianity ripped these off those religions.



    It's called 17 years of evangelism and apologetic work. I forgot something even more important...people that believe as you stated, are NOT Christians either.
    I've noticed a tendency in religious people, not just Christians, to dismiss the questions and concerns of others.
    Uneducated, liberal, and NOT Christians either? Could it be that you have that tendency?

  19. #19
    xjw4evr
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    I've noticed a tendency in religious people, not just Christians, to dismiss the questions and concerns of others.
    Uneducated, liberal, and NOT Christians either? Could it be that you have that tendency?
    That would be an incorrect ***umption on your part.

    I have noticed the tendency of atheists, agnostics and skeptics to dismiss the questions of others as being uneducated, narrow-minded, and bigoted.
    Last edited by xjw4evr; 09-12-2009 at 11:27 PM.

  20. #20
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by xjw4evr View Post

    I have noticed the tendency of atheists, agnostics and skeptics to dismiss the questions of others as being uneducated, narrow-minded, and bigoted.
    Do you have questions?

  21. #21
    xjw4evr
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    Do you have questions?
    Are you ***erting that you are in a position to answer any questions I may have?

  22. #22
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by xjw4evr View Post
    Are you ***erting that you are in a position to answer any questions I may have?
    One thing is for sure, I won't dismiss you as uneducated, narrow-minded, or bigoted, unless you really are.

  23. #23
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRiG View Post
    You are clearly very very confused.

    Therefore pagans and JWs believe in many gods.

    Just look at the parallelisms.

    TRiG.

    Yours simply don't follow.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  24. #24
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    Are Christians also pagans?
    How so?

    Christians believe in one God.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  25. #25
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRiG View Post
    Pagans believe in many Gods.
    Witnesses believe in many Gods.
    Therefore, Witnesses are Pagans.

    ...

    Cows are mammals.
    Goats are mammals.
    Therefore, goats are cows.

    TRiG.
    You have it backward
    The believe in many gods is Pagan
    Jw's believe in many gods
    Jw's are therefore pagan

    mammals are cows
    mammals are goats
    there are many differnt animals that are mammals..

    IHS jim

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